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How much runway do you need ?.

P

Pittsartist

Well Known Member
I'm getting really interested in buying a Farm that's for sale near where I live. Basically, I'm planning to use a grain store as a hangar and put in a new grass runway.

The details will be

- 1300' length (400m)
- 80' wide (25m)
- There is a slight downslope - 11' over the 1300' length
- At one threshold (the "lower" end) are some power lines - 20' timber pole for domestic supply running 90 degrees to the runway
- Both approaches are clear and straight for at least a mile
- The soil is "Type 3" and I'm expecting it to be well drained most of the year
- There's Drainage ditches at both ends - so no run off's
- It's about 100' above sea level
- The direction is pretty much the best compromise for prevailing winds

My aircraft is an RV-6 taildragger, 160hp, fixed "vans" sensenich prop, 1066lb and I'm fairly proficient in flying it.

I would appreciate any thoughts / comparisons from other RV owners who fly from similar runways.
 
Well... Achim is a better man than me.

I land at a 1700' grass strip here in Massachusetts and I call that my personal minimum for at least the time being.

I know that I can do less, but you know...

1300' if you know it pretty well and nail it everytime... ok!

My two...

:) CJ
 
Pittsartist said:
I'm getting really interested in buying a Farm that's for sale near where I live. Basically, I'm planning to use a grain store as a hangar and put in a new grass runway.

The details will be

- 1300' length (400m)
- 1500' length
- 80' wide (25m)
- 20' wide
- There is a slight downslope - 11' over the 1300' length
- Slight downslope from middle to each end - 10' drop
- At one threshold (the "lower" end) are some power lines - 20' timber pole for domestic supply running 90 degrees to the runway
- 6' fence across road (north end) and 6' railroad at south end
- Both approaches are clear and straight for at least a mile
- Same
- The soil is "Type 3" and I'm expecting it to be well drained most of the year
- Class 5 soil. Finally had to go with asphalt
- There's Drainage ditches at both ends - so no run off's
- Good drainage
- It's about 100' above sea level
- 640' above sea level
- The direction is pretty much the best compromise for prevailing winds
- Same
My aircraft is an RV-6 taildragger, 160hp, fixed "vans" sensenich prop, 1066lb and I'm fairly proficient in flying it.
Rv-6 taildragger, 175hp, Catto 3-blade prop
I would appreciate any thoughts / comparisons from other RV owners who fly from similar runways.
Click to expand...

See comparison above. I have no problems. I wouldn't want much less.
 
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Richard

I would have thought that the guys you already know at Netherthorpe would be a good sounding board for RV performance.
 
I think it is well within the capabilities of the airplane - Isn't Vans personal strip pretty short?

And I also think you grow into your requirement. I have 2600 x 20 of pavement which I think is luxuriously long, but plenty of people find it intimidating. I also have a crosswind dirt runway that is 1800 feet long and can get the Rocket down and stopped by the intersection (900 feet) without much drama.

I suspect that you will learn to bring your "A game" every time, and that 1300 feet is going to eventually feel excessive.
 
Really depends on your comfort level

I think Michael makes a good point. I came from a world of flying fast twins (landing speed well over 100) to buying my RV-7 and being VERY uncomfortable during the first 6 months. It was embarrassing at first but I didn't let that bother me... just worked at getting to know the plane better.
I remember going to a couple of fly-ins where the grass strip was 2200 or 2300 feet and I would fly there, look at it, and turn back because I didn't want to take a chance. After about 6 months of getting to know the plane I became very comfortable with the 2000 + feet grass strips. I find myself now landing half the distance on some of these strips and have been in and out of a few that around 1000 feet.
The airplane is certainly capable of what you are trying to accomplish, it's just being able to safely slow it down enough.
One other thing to consider is you can alway have the power lines buried just before the path of the runway. If you have a mile on each direction without obstacles, burying the power lines will give you a much safer approach and departure.
 
Correct

The bottom line what do you think?

If you are already quite proficient in your airplane, you likely already know what you would feel comfortable with (or you could do some test flights and find where that point is).
 
Take-off performance is not likely to be a problem. Getting stopped after landing is the concern.

Questions to ponder:

  • What is the shortest strip you are comfortable using with your aircraft today?
  • There may be days when landing proves difficult, either because the winds are not as you thought, or because you simply aren't as sharp as normal. Will you have a convenient alternate strip you could land at, if your strip proves to be a poor choice after you are already airborne?
  • How will you get home after using this alternate strip?
  • Do you have the discipline to go around if you are off speed, or too high or the aircraft isn't nicely on the ground before you have used up too much of the available distance?
 
Very doable, but...

I have landed a Super Six several times on a 1300' strip @ 2500 msl and no problem... except the brake pads would not last very long if I did it all the time. Airspeed control on landing is critical and being able to hit the same spot on the runway all the time are both critical factors. And don't be afraid to go around if everything isn't perfect. I used to land at a friends farm with my RV4 solo on a 700' strip @ 100 msl. Just heavy brake useage again.

Steve
 
Steve Barnes said:
I have landed a Super Six several times on a 1300' strip @ 2500 msl and no problem... except the brake pads would not last very long if I did it all the time. Airspeed control on landing is critical and being able to hit the same spot on the runway all the time are both critical factors. And don't be afraid to go around if everything isn't perfect. I used to land at a friends farm with my RV4 solo on a 700' strip @ 100 msl. Just heavy brake useage again.

Steve
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Wow! Landing the RV-4 on 700', without an arresting cable! I'm impressed!
 
74ga

My strip is 74GA (1400ft) with 50 to 100ft trees both ends and I flew both an RV-3 and 160hp RV-6a routinely out of it. Here is youtube of one of those....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJP674OiJQ0&sns=em

It was hard on the nosewheel and if there was any tailwind with a wet surface, well, it was a fun ride. Missed approach time is limited so You have to be on your toes. Having your own strip is a dream and good luck with your project.
 
I want minimum 1500' to land my RV6, especially if it's got a downhill slope to it. My home airport runway is 13/31 @ 3200 feet with a crossing 04/22 turf runway and paved taxiway exit at midfield, and 13 slopes downhill quite a bit. This makes landing on 31 a piece of cake since it rises uphill to meet the tires for a really easy touchdown if winds favor 31. When landing on runway 13, I am always down and slow enough to turn off at that 1600' midfield crossing without handing to abuse the brakes so 1500 would be enough.

Taking off, if I've got 500 feet of flat ground pointing into the wind without obstacles, both the RV6 and myself are happy. 1000' would make me even happier for takeoff.

Could I land it in 1000 if I had too? Sure, but only once! :D and then it would probably become the insurance company's plane.
 
My aircraft is an RV-6 taildragger, 160hp, fixed "vans" sensenich prop, 1066lb and I'm fairly proficient in flying it.
Click to expand...
I have landed my -6 in under 1000' on a paved strip, when absolutely everything came together perfectly for me. I wasn't trying to land it short that day, it just happened to work out that way and I don't recall it needing a *lot* of brake. 150HP, fixed Sensenich, 999empty.
 
It is doable...

It should be doable. I think you should go to a wide open paved field and make sure you are comfortable landing and taking off well short of the 1000ft touchdown marks consistently and confidently. That is what I did. Not a big deal in my 7A with 180ph. Slowly increase your weight and note the density alt and performance you are getting at those number. I have about 1150 useable and it is very doable though you have to be on A game. When in doubt, lay out... Power up and go around. There me be some days that aviation just says "no" and you should not flying or out of there....

This is where I have been operating. Take off the the west, land from the west...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrB2bhTmGxs
 
Thanks for all the replies people. Taking it all on board I suppose it boils down to how small a margin for error you are willing to accept.

I have now made an offer for the farm and if it gets accepted I'm willing to give it a try. My RV has only been flying for a year, but I operate it out of 430m of grass with clear approaches quite happily at the moment so I suppose it's only a slight reduction in "margin".

Fingers crossed !
 
jeffkersey said:
It should be doable. I think you should go to a wide open paved field and make sure you are comfortable landing and taking off well short of the 1000ft touchdown marks consistently and confidently. That is what I did. Not a big deal in my 7A with 180ph. Slowly increase your weight and note the density alt and performance you are getting at those number. I have about 1150 useable and it is very doable though you have to be on A game. When in doubt, lay out... Power up and go around. There me be some days that aviation just says "no" and you should not flying or out of there....

This is where I have been operating. Take off the the west, land from the west...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrB2bhTmGxs
Click to expand...

Nice video. I think I would hire some nocturnal beavers and see about getting those trees removed. 😎 But I digress, slipping is so much fun!
 
I live on a 1300' grass strip:relatively clear approach on one end between trees spaced about 120' apart.Other end is over power lines 250' away,then between 2 buildings 100' apart on the end of strip.Flew the 4 in here for 10 years,and the 8 for 4 years with little trouble,and almost never hard braking.Takeoff at gross must sometimes wait for favorable winds with fixed pitch.Other friends will not land here,even though their planes are capable of it.People get used to long paved strips.Speed control on final is critical to land on short strips;most people won't explore the lower end of speeds.Practice on a longer strip until you can consistently land in the required short distance.
 
Nice Neighbors :)

Bill Boyd said:
Wow - you'd have another 200 feet of useable at the least if that tree weren't right there. I'm guessing the neighbor doesn't really like little airplanes?

-Stormy
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The neighbors I fly over like airplanes. I took him flying yesterday. The other 200 feet is a pretty steep uphill. I slipped it in hard and landed up hill the 2nd time I landed there and was stopped in less than 400 hundred feet. It is rougher down there and harder on the gear so I have just been landing where it levels off and have not had a problem...
 
Tight squeeze

Pittsartist said:
Thanks for all the replies people. Taking it all on board I suppose it boils down to how small a margin for error you are willing to accept.

I have now made an offer for the farm and if it gets accepted I'm willing to give it a try. My RV has only been flying for a year, but I operate it out of 430m of grass with clear approaches quite happily at the moment so I suppose it's only a slight reduction in "margin".

Fingers crossed !
Click to expand...

F16 weapons school answer, "it depends" :)
I built my RV4 back in the 90"s at my friend"s shop alongside his 800', one way grass strip. I conducted my RV4 test flight and subsequent test period from "Porter Intl" with no issues whatsoever. I did have a solid background of both tailwheel and short field work characterized by my Dad/instructors standard comment about everything, YOU are your only limitation..
.I operated my HR2 and RVX from the same field until Mr Porter"s (RV Yoda) death from cancer.

Realistically, 1000" feet of unobstructed turf can be safely utilized by an RV with practice. I kept the grass longer on the sides of my own 1300' strip and mowed the center. This aided takeoff on centerline and slowing on landings slightly off center.
Practice slow flight with full flaps focusing on a steeper, high sink rate approach. Strive to fly final approach at 60KIAS holding power on until touchdown in 3 point with a quick flap retraction, full aft stick with braking. Manual flaps help with this as does slower engine idle (600 or less) and 380x150x5 tires. VG"s also help greatly although are more rare these days...
Questions? :)
[email protected]
V/R
Smokey
 
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I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!

smokyray said:
F16 weapons school answer, "it depends" :)
I built my RV4 back in the 90's at my friend's shop alongside his 800' one way grass strip...
V/R
Smokey
Click to expand...

I have flown into a 1,600' grass strip, which was easy but I wouldn't want to do that every day, just because you have to be perfect every time and I'm just not that good.

2,000' would be my minimum for daily operations with plenty of excess grass.
 
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The finer points....

Michael Henning said:
800" and 1300" strips, now that's impressive. Perhaps you meant 800' and 1300'?��
Click to expand...
Michael,
Ah, there's one in every squadron! Dang, I bet you do good PowerPoint too! :) Yes, the 800 inch strip would have definitely been a tight squeeze, grammatical errors notwithstanding...

My heroes are my MAF bros who do it every day, every landing not for fun, but for others...
V/R
Smokey


MAF Kodiak, PNG
 
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I used 1020' comfortably for a -4, see here.

Practice elsewhere and DONT do it until you know you can. Once you can its not stressy and easily within the aircrafts capability. In the video there is almost no use of the brakes but the VP prop probably helps quite a bit. The -6 will need a little more, but the -6 s that used my strip did just fine.
 
Richard,

You'll probably be fine, on a flat strip definitely so, don't know what impact the slope will have. T/O at max weight might be a bit exciting and you will have to concentrate on landing, but should not be a problem. Talk to David Broom, he has operated a 160hp 6 from 400m for several years - I think he limits his t/o weight and if necessary fuels up somewhere else.

Pete
 
Sad to report I've had to abandon the idea and just buy a "normal" house instead.

Airstrip no 1 (as described) lost despite offering asking price to another bidder who wanted to buy the house, bit with the strip and another 240 acres.

Airstrip no 2 - looked promising, but problems with wet ground (clay) and getting some electrical lines moved.

Airstrip no 3 - Sold whilst I was looking into legal issues surrounding a permissive access bridleway.

Airstrip no 4 - House at the side of an existing runway. Doubtful planning permission for hangar (green belt) and Wet Runways.

All the above basically sucked out my enthusiasm, so it's a normal house (with a giant "garage" .... Aircraft workshop - but don't tell the wife !) after all.

Hats off to anyone outside farming who sets up a new strip in the UK - it's not easy !
 
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