Using Approach procedures on GTN750/G3X

I have never needed STARS and SIDs in the areas I mostly. On a recent flight to San Antonio area (KSSF) I was given a waypoint (I think it was CRAYS) to fly to and then the MARCS one arrival. I was in IMC and hand flying and managed to get this on ForeFlight. Before I got there the new approach vectored me which made life much simpler for me.
I am looking for help as to how to load arrival procedures (and departures) on the GTN 750 and/or G3X system.
Thanks.
Johan

The same way you would load an Approach on the GTN.

Touch on your destination > Load Procedures > Arrival > MARCS1 > Choose the transition > Load Arrival > If you're already into the arrival area, activate the correct leg





If you have an iPad, I HIGHLY recommend downloading this app from the App Store:

+1 on the trainer

use it for my 650 frequently ---- I have never been given an arrival, but it seems the newer, younger controllers are giving them to my airport buddies more and more -- so I have been using the trainer to figure out how to work them in, in case my "no SIDS, no STARS" does not work on my filed flight plan.

R.

The GTN-650 or 750 arrival/departure proceedures work well. Pick the one you want, select the transition and enter. The track shows up on the EFIS so you can follow the little magenta line. The first one I got was departing Fort Collins (Denver ATC). After a moment of terror I figured out how to select the departure and the transition. A couple of buttons later the track was on the SKyView and I launched.

Two other comments on your post:
- The iPad is not for IFR flight. It is a great flight planner and makes for an acceptable backup, but should not be relied on.
- I assume you were hand flying by choice, not by necessity. For most of us amateur pilots a reliable dual axis autopilot is essential for IFR flight, especially in an RV.

Carl

Carl Froehlich said:

I assume you were hand flying by choice, not by necessity. For most of us amateur pilots a reliable dual axis autopilot is essential for IFR flight, especially in an RV.

Carl

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Maybe the 10 is a much more stable platform than the 7, but I can tell you that I wouldn't accept something from ATC I was unprepared for (like a STAR) if I was hand flying my 7 under actual IFR. I already know hand flying and programming the box can put a real strain on things even when I'm prepared for it.

Jeff A said:

The same way you would load an Approach on the GTN.

Touch on your destination > Load Procedures > Arrival > MARCS1 > Choose the transition > Load Arrival > If you're already into the arrival area, activate the correct leg





If you have an iPad, I HIGHLY recommend downloading this app from the App Store:

Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff.
Exactly what I wanted.
Johan

Carl Froehlich said:

The GTN-650 or 750 arrival/departure proceedures work well. Pick the one you want, select the transition and enter. The track shows up on the EFIS so you can follow the little magenta line. The first one I got was departing Fort Collins (Denver ATC). After a moment of terror I figured out how to select the departure and the transition. A couple of buttons later the track was on the SKyView and I launched.

Two other comments on your post:
- The iPad is not for IFR flight. It is a great flight planner and makes for an acceptable backup, but should not be relied on.
- I assume you were hand flying by choice, not by necessity. For most of us amateur pilots a reliable dual axis autopilot is essential for IFR flight, especially in an RV.

Carl

Click to expand...

Carl,
I know that ForeFlight is no legal IFR. I know it well and can find my way around well and fast. I do use it for spacial orientation even when doing an ILS (or any land based approach that has no moving map overlaid). Helps with lateral guidance. I have become much more proficient using the 750 and G3X and the iPad nowadays remains mostly in my flight bag. Up till that day I have never used the 750 for an arrival procedure and realized that was not the right time to figure it out. I had the iPad on my lap this flight.
The hand flying was forced on me when I got bitten by the software bug. That is also the reason I had the iPad out of my flight bag. The plane has a good autopilot........was good up till that day. I now know that they can and does fail.
Right after I was given the expected arrival procedure I was handed over to San Antonio approach. They vectored me right away, before I could ask for vectors, which I was planning on doing.
The (only?) upside is that I now know better what I can handle. It was a long flight and I sure was tired that night!!
Johan

I am curious about the autopilot fail due to software? Is this a known issue?

Here's my hint for GTN users: BEFORE you get close to your destination, take a guess at the IAF and/or STAR that you'll get, and program it into the box. If in fact you are offered vectors to final, go back into the GTN and with one button push ("vectors to final") you are all set to go.

Note to Walt: the -10 is definitely more stable than a -7. But it's not like a 182, either!

This is a good example of why pilots need to spend some time learning their GPS navigators. John Collin?s recommends the following:
?To be proficient with the GPS, pilots should at least be able to accomplish the following tasks:

1. load, edit, and fly a flightplan
2. go direct to a waypoint
3. activate a leg
4. Fly a selected course to or from a waypoint (aka intercept a radial)
5. Control a hold for more turns or remove a hold from the flightplan
6. select and load an approach
7. understand what activate an approach really does and what alternative methods are available (a major cause of "what's it doing now?")
8. why to avoid using VTF in most cases and when to use it
9. why to avoid using direct to the FAF
10. how to turn on the LPV guidance when on a visual approach
11. understand the normal sequencing of the GPS, in particular between the enroute segment and the approach segment
12. understand how to use GPSS and approach modes on an autopilot
enter a SID or STAR and fly one
13. how and when to control the missed approach guidance.?

For GTN owners, the sim is an instrument excellent tool in learning the buttonology to accomplis the tasks listed above.

If you like quizzes: The following question was asked of me:
Pilot was flying to Arcata, CA (KACV). He was level 5700', and got the following clearance: "Direct YAGER, maintain 5700', cleared for the RNAV (GPS) RWY32 approach Arcata." He went into the GTN, selected YAGER as the IAF for the above approach. Passing VOMAC, the box remained in TERM mode, and the glide slope was flagged. He quickly went back into the GTN and selected "vectors to final". The GS came alive, the enunciator went to LPV. His question: Why didn't selecting YAGER as an IAF work?

Dorfie said:

Carl,
SNIP... The plane has a good autopilot........was good up till that day. I now know that they can and does fail. SNIP...
Johan

Click to expand...

Are you saying the G3X autopilot failed?? If so, this violates my ?reliable two axis autopilot for IFR flight? requirement.

Carl

Carl Froehlich said:

Are you saying the G3X autopilot failed?? If so, this violates my ?reliable two axis autopilot for IFR flight? requirement.

Carl

Click to expand...

Has been discussed on this forum. Comments from page 2 onwards.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=157633&highlight=307&page=3

It worked before this flight and during a prior flight done soon after the update. It quit along the flight with the usual audio you get with AP disengage and AP red-X'ed. Had intermittent AP engagements and failures thereafter. Not knowing what was wrong I decided to hand fly after a few attempts at engaging the AP, spread over a long time.

I passed a test I would otherwise never have attempted. I guess that's what all the practice is about. I think that is why I reverted to the iPad when the workload was too high for me to mess with a lesser known procedure. I'm sure I would have figured it out with a working AP. I've been to that page before.

I'm still happy with my Garmin equipment and the support I get.

Johan

BobTurner said:

If you like quizzes: The following question was asked of me:
Pilot was flying to Arcata, CA (KACV). He was level 5700', and got the following clearance: "Direct YAGER, maintain 5700', cleared for the RNAV (GPS) RWY32 approach Arcata." He went into the GTN, selected YAGER as the IAF for the above approach. Passing VOMAC, the box remained in TERM mode, and the glide slope was flagged. He quickly went back into the GTN and selected "vectors to final". The GS came alive, the enunciator went to LPV. His question: Why didn't selecting YAGER as an IAF work?

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There may be a better answer then this one, but if I were flying in my plane with the GTN and GMC 305, the way I would do it is:
1. Once cleared for the approach, I would push the APR botton on the 305.
2. I would verify that APR showed on the flight director scoreboard on the G3X.
3. I would dial in the next altitude of 4700
4. Upon passing VOMAC, I?d be looking for the GS indicator on the scoreboard and see if the AP begins the decent. If the decent did not start automatically, I would VS down to 4700.
5. I would continue driving down the glide slope manually using VS until I got a GS lock on the flight director.

I don?t know if there is a better way, but there is one approach in my vicinity were I have to decend manually on the first leg of the approach. I use the method described above.

BobTurner said:

If you like quizzes: The following question was asked of me:
Pilot was flying to Arcata, CA (KACV). He was level 5700', and got the following clearance: "Direct YAGER, maintain 5700', cleared for the RNAV (GPS) RWY32 approach Arcata." He went into the GTN, selected YAGER as the IAF for the above approach. Passing VOMAC, the box remained in TERM mode, and the glide slope was flagged. He quickly went back into the GTN and selected "vectors to final". The GS came alive, the enunciator went to LPV. His question: Why didn't selecting YAGER as an IAF work?

Click to expand...

The GP should be captured at the FAF, the step down altitudes prior to the FAF must be complied with. The reason the GP became available with vectors is the step down waypoints of the approach are no longer part of the approach, its "assumed" ATC is vectoring you both laterally and vertically to just outside the FAF.

Following the GP outside the FAF may lead to a CFIT in this case.

Walt has it right. The pilot in question mistook the symbol for a step-down for a GS intercept. The GTN behaved properly.

Walt said:

The GP should be captured at the FAF, the step down altitudes prior to the FAF must be complied with. The reason the GP became available with vectors is the step down waypoints of the approach are no longer part of the approach, its "assumed" ATC is vectoring you both laterally and vertically to just outside the FAF.

Following the GP outside the FAF could most definately lead to a CFIT in this case.

Click to expand...

I need some help understanding this. Why do the step down fixes have to be complied with (ie decend vs stay level)? I’m also not following why the GTN didn’t cycle to LPV at the FAF and generate the GP. Even if he stayed at 5700 I don’t understand why the GTN did what it did.

And I understand why you need to take advisory GPs with a grain of salt on an LNAV+V and that the MDA is still the minimum.

BTW I tried this approach on the GTN sim and it cycled to LPV at the FAF just fine with YAGER as the IAF which further confuses me with the answers posted.

The issue is that the pilot confused the FAA symbol for step-down (a diagonal line with an arrow head) for the GS symbol (no arrow head), out near the IAP, and freaked out when he didn?t get a glide slope indication. If he had stepped down, he would have gotten the GS near the FAF.
You are correct, you don?t have to do the step-downs (they are not over-lined). But if you don?t, you?ll be hopelessly high when the GS comes alive near the FAF.

BobTurner said:

The issue is that the pilot confused the FAA symbol for step-down (a diagonal line with an arrow head) for the GS symbol (no arrow head), out near the IAP, and freaked out when he didn?t get a glide slope indication. If he had stepped down, he would have gotten the GS near the FAF.
You are correct, you don?t have to do the step-downs (they are not over-lined). But if you don?t, you?ll be hopelessly high when the GS comes alive near the FAF.

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Gotcha. This makes more sense as the previous answers did not jive with the scenario as I read it and based upon my experience with my GTN 650.

Auburntsts said:

Gotcha. This makes more sense as the previous answers did not jive with the scenario as I read it and based upon my experience with my GTN 650.

Click to expand...

I've always had more consistent results by manually stepping down via the altitude setting on the EFIS driving my AP. I've found that even if I'm at the appropriate altitude at the IAF, sometimes it doesn't always intercept and fly the GS.