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Flap-Aileron-Wingtip Alignment

JDA_BTR

Well Known Member
I've read all the posts on this, but have a question with my setup.

I think that the flaps are designed to be fully up when they hit the stops. On my wings when I put the flaps in the up stop, and then apply the aileron alignment tool, my aileron edge is approx 1/4 inch below the flap. If I rig the aileron at the flap it will be higher than the tool shows.

I'm inclined to rig the aileron where the tool has it rigged, and then set the flap for full up where the aileron lines up.

The reason I care is that I'd really like to do my wingtips in the stand before I hang the wings on the plane.

Does anyone have a simple step by step so I can get it right in the wing stand?
 
The golden rule I tell builders is to defer wingtip fitup until after the wings are on the airplane (at least the temporary fit up).

Many people swear by the aileron alignment tool, but I offer that it only gets you in the ballpark. Get the wings on, make sure the flaps are really all the way up, rig the ailerons, have a couple of people check the rigging and then fit the wingtips.

I?m sure many have just rigged the wingtips in the stand as you suggest but why not wait until the wings are on and you can do some careful rigging? It is the same work either way and waiting may avoid a messy wingtip trailing edge cut and fix later on.

Carl
 
I'm inclined to rig the aileron where the tool has it rigged, and then set the flap for full up where the aileron lines up.

I believe you will regret that decision.

According to Van's for the 10, the definitive reflexed position is based upon the flaps when they are hitting the rear spar. The aileron jig 's purpose is for establishing a neutral setting on the bell crank during linkage adjustment and should not be used for aileron aliment, prior to rigging. There is an adjustment point between the bell crank and the aileron and this rod length cannot be properly set without first aligning the aileron to it's correct position. Once the rigging is done, that tool will be fairly accurate, but I still would not use it for wingtip alignment.

I assume the 14 is the same as it is the same wing design, but you will need to confirm that.

For the 10, On the stand, ensure the flap is hard against the spar (gravity will hold it there due to the offset pivot position), use a clamp to hold the aileron in alignment with the flap, then install wingtip in alignment with aileron.

Not sure why this would be any different on the plane vs in the craddle, as the flap position is pretty easy to find on the stand and don't see how it can change once on the plane.

While everything is clamped up, take the time to adjust both aileron control rods, as their adjustment requires that the aileron is locked on the reflex position. Both bell crank and torque tubes need to be in specific positions during this rigging.

I might also suggest you spend a bit more time with the assembly manual. You should not be proceeding on key steps like this until you fully understand it. It is not necessarilly a step by step guide.

Larry
 
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Aileron Alignment

I'm inclined to rig the aileron where the tool has it rigged, and then set the flap for full up where the aileron lines up.

[/QUOTE]

Since you did not mention which RV model you are building I will offer my experience with my RV-9A which I recently completed and just finished Phase One tests.

I aligned the ailerons with the alignment tool mounted to each bell crank and the straightedge method on the end rib as indicated in the assembly manual/drawings. Then I adjusted the upper flap limits to the ailerons. They both appear firmly flush with the fuselage when fully retracted. Both wingtip trailing edges were below the neutral aileron position enough that required some cutting and fiberglass modifications which were a PIA but after 49 hrs of flight testing the only additional rigging required was extending the right flap actuator rod one turn. No trim tabs were needed and the aircraft delivers Van's published performance numbers.

More experienced builders may have determined a better way to accomplish this procedure so I advise you to consider all options.
 
So a lot of advice not to rely on the aileron template, but the aileron template is indeed the standard neutral position....

The reason I want to rig the tips in the cradle is it is really easy to get to both sides in that condition. I'd rather do it that way than gave to get upside down on the bottom. I'm planning a hinged assembly with just a few screws to keep it secure in the front and its a lot easier to hinge in the stand.

So it seems like clamp the aileron in place with the tool, then clamp the tip to the aileron and the end; and then get with the tip fitting.
 
So a lot of advice not to rely on the aileron template, but the aileron template is indeed the standard neutral position....

I would call Van's and get advice on this. With the 10 wing, the airplane flys with the flaps, ailerons, and wingtips in the 3* reflex position. I believe that the 14 is the same. Scott even refers to this in the referenced post. He says that the ailerons in the reflex position get a downward motion from the air stream, requiring 3/32" of additional reflex during rigging to offest the wind pressure. Or at least that is what they did on the demo plane. Scott is a very reputable source.

Please call, as rigging is not something to trust to conflicting internet advice. Two pieces of advice are coming from people who are building planes with a different wing than yours.

FYI, I did not advise against using the template. The 10 doesn't have that and was unaware of it. My suggestion was to follow the manual. What does it say about this?

Larry
 
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So it seems like clamp the aileron in place with the tool, then clamp the tip to the aileron and the end; and then get with the tip fitting.

If by "tool" you mean the jig that goes on the bell crank, let me repeat. That tool does NOT set the proper aileron position. It sets the neutral position of the bell crank. You then put the aileron in the proper position by adjusting the rod between the aileron and the bell crank, with the jig installed. You need a reference for aileron position - either the flap or the template.

I cannot imagine this data is not in the manual.

Larry
 
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If by "tool" you mean the jig that goes on the bell crank, let me repeat. That tool does NOT set the proper aileron position. It sets the neutral position of the bell crank. You then put the aileron in the proper position by adjusting the rod between the aileron and the bell crank, with the jig installed. You need a reference for aileron position - either the flap or the template.

I cannot imagine this data is not in the manual.

Larry

There are two tools for the 14, which is the airplane he is posting about. They are used at the same time and one sets the neutral position of the bell crank and one sets the position of the aileron in the reflex position.

Do what the manual says, it works perfectly. You can do it on or off the plane. It makes no difference since the tools are the reference to use. I did it off the plane and installed the wing tip.

When installing the wings and attaching the push rods to the sticks I confirmed the position of the ailerons with the tool while adjusting the length of the push rods to attach to the sticks in the neutral position. The push rod between the bell crank and the aileron needed no adjustment from the adjustment I made while the wings were in the wing stand.

Worked perfectly.
 
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There are two tools for the 14, which is the airplane he is posting about. They are used at the same time and one sets the neutral position of the bell crank and one sets the position of the aileron in the reflex position.

Do what the manual says, it works perfectly. You can do it on or off the plane. It makes no difference since the tools are the reference to use. I did it off the plane and installed the wing tip.

When installing the wings and attaching the push rods to the sticks I confirmed the position of the ailerons with the tool while adjusting the length of the push rods to attach to the sticks in the neutral position. The push rod between the bell crank and the aileron needed no adjustment from the adjustment I made while the wings were in the wing stand.

Worked perfectly.

Exactly right. Folks who don't have firsthand experience with a -14(A) kit should refrain from answering tech questions based on their assumptions of similarity with their own RV model. That sort of well-intentioned, but misguided advice only leads to confusion for inexperienced builders.
 
I used the jigs to set the bell cranks in the wings while on the wing stand. When I put the wings on the plane, retracted the flaps, adjusted ailerons, with elevator neutral, and the tips did not line up perfectly. Adjustments were required to the trailing edge of the wing tips. There is NO time saved by installing the tips while on the wing stand. It might work out perfectly, but if it does not you will have screws, or worse yet hinges attached in the wrong spot.
This was the same on both the 10 and 14 that I have built. Wait
 
If by "tool" you mean the jig that goes on the bell crank, let me repeat. That tool does NOT set the proper aileron position. It sets the neutral position of the bell crank. You then put the aileron in the proper position by adjusting the rod between the aileron and the bell crank, with the jig installed. You need a reference for aileron position - either the flap or the template.

I cannot imagine this data is not in the manual.

Larry

It is hopefully obvious by now, that experience with one model of RV doesn't necessarily translate to giving detailed build advice about all other models....
but don't feel bad, I see this a lot in the forums (I.E., RV-6 builders posting non-relevant build advice in the RV-12 section). It is always a good idea to confirm what aircraft model or section of the forum the thread is in.

This thread is in the RV-14 forum, and the RV-14 does indeed have some newer ways of dealing with aileron rigging.
 
I used the jigs to set the bell cranks in the wings while on the wing stand. When I put the wings on the plane, retracted the flaps, adjusted ailerons, with elevator neutral, and the tips did not line up perfectly.

It baffles me how does elevator in neutral position gets used to set up the aileron position in a RV14?
 
As the stick moves for and aft it changes the pull, or push, or the ailerons slightly. If you line up everything perfectly with elevators neutral in flight condition, when you tie you airplane, tail dragger, down with the stick back, the ailerons will not line up with the flaps. This is different from the other RVs

The RV 10 is the same
 
This is different from the other RVs

This phenomenon exists to some degree on all of the side by side RV's, but it is more noticeable on the 10 and 14 because the push/pull tube connected to the base of the stick is much shorter than it is for the others.
 
It is hopefully obvious by now, that experience with one model of RV doesn't necessarily translate to giving detailed build advice about all other models....
but don't feel bad, I see this a lot in the forums (I.E., RV-6 builders posting non-relevant build advice in the RV-12 section). It is always a good idea to confirm what aircraft model or section of the forum the thread is in.

This thread is in the RV-14 forum, and the RV-14 does indeed have some newer ways of dealing with aileron rigging.

I understand and was carefull to indicate that my experience would not necessarily directly translate to the 14 and more research was necessary. I encouraged him to call Van's and read the manual. Just didn't want to see him make a mistake he would regret.

Larry
 
I attached my wing tips when I built the 7A onto the wing while they were on the wing stand. The Tip was inserted into the end of the Wing. There was no adjustment to the Tip at all.

I am building a 14, can the Tip be adjusted up or down before it is secured to the Wing?
From the conservation, it sounds like they can be adjusted, as been said to set flaps then Ailerons, then the Wing Tips.
Did I misunderstand?
 
Be careful of doing all the glass work on the trailing edge in the cradle if using the hinges for the tips. I did, and when I trial fit the wings for the first time I had to recut and glass due to a small amount of sag. With the aileron tool in place and the flaps matching the ailerons, the tip trailing edge is a perfect match. Now lets hope it flies straight like that. :D
 
So I did install the wing tips in the stand, with the flaps and aileron in good alignment. When I installed the wings it all lined up great, and the jigs still showed I was rigged correctly. In level flight, the ailerons are even R/L, but they both trail down a hair below the line of the flaps (in the stops +3) and the tips. Probably 1/8 - 3/16 inch; just enough to be able to tell.

I'm thinking that I should rotate the eyes on the ailerons evenly so that in flight the ailerons are even with the flap/tip line.

Opinions?
 
Me too, and it does look great on the ground; in the air there is just a hair of down deflection even on both sides due to the forces on the aileron in flight.

I'm really glad I did the tips in the stand. You can see that the tips and flaps line up great. The aileron is the same hair down at both the tip and the flap end of the aileron evenly both sides.
 
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