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2020 ADSB-OUT requirement

N804RV

Well Known Member
Someone please educate me. Exactly what hardware will I have to have in order to be ADS-B OUT compliant on 1/1/20?

It sounds like I'll have to have a TSO'd WAAS enabled GPS, as well as a Mode-S transponder. Is that right?
 
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Ken,

Here is a real good place to go to learn about the 2020 ADS-B requirements:



The 2020 requirements for ADS-B out cover only the airspace where you need a transponder today. If you never fly in those airspaces, you won't need to comply. If you want to fly in those airspaces, you will need to comply starting in 2020.

There are two ways to send the ADS-B out signal. One is with a MODE-S/ES transponder operating on 1090MHZ. It must have the ES option or it won't work. The other is with an UAT operating on 978MHZ. (This option still requires an operating transponder)

The GPS's feeding these ADS-B out solutions must meet very strict standards. Here is an FAA document that gets you all the fancy verbage you need to know to become educated on the specs:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165.pdf


ADS-B IN is totally optional. There are many devices on the market now that can receive all or some of the products available via ADS-B IN like FIS-B and TIS-B. FIS-B gets you free weather/TFR/Notam info and TIS-B is an amazing traffic avoidance feature.

Much info out on the web. Just be careful of marketing hype.
 
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Note that the UAT option is only for the US, and only below 18,000'. If you plan to fly in the flight levels, or to Canada, I think you need to go the mode S-ES route.
Also the gps does not need to have an approach database, so it should be a lot less expensive than current TSO 146 gps navigators. However I know of none that are available yet.
 
Note that the UAT option is only for the US, and only below 18,000'. If you plan to fly in the flight levels, or to Canada, I think you need to go the mode S-ES route.
Also the gps does not need to have an approach database, so it should be a lot less expensive than current TSO 146 gps navigators. However I know of none that are available yet.

So, I've looking at Dynon's Skyview system for my RV-8 (that will hopefully be flying in less than 5 years). It looks to me like if I want to be able to operate in class B/C airspace here in the US, and be able to operate in Canadian airspace, the most cost effective way to build a new panel from scratch, is just to bite the bullet and go with a glass panel system.

In other words, the FAA ADS-B manadate that will be in effect in less than 7 years now, has provided me with a convenient excuse for buying more gadgets. Has anyone else come to the same conclusion?
 
Out of the list if currently certified extended squitter transmitters, I believe the Trig TT31 is the least expensive.

I have my fingers crossed for more experimentals in the market to gain certification before 2020.
 
Bill, the Garmin GTX 23 is about $500 cheaper at $2,200 (Spruce), but, yes, it is a remote mount which would require you to purchase additional Garmin hardware. But if you're going with Garmin, probably one of the better deals out there.
 
It looks to me like if I want to be able to operate in class B/C airspace here in the US, and be able to operate in Canadian airspace,

Actually it's more airspace than that, anywhere mode C is required now will require ADS-b then. So it's in and OVER any class B & C and over 10,000' msl.
Out west here it will pretty much become mandatory.
Tim
 
the most cost effective way to build a new panel from scratch, is just to bite the bullet and go with a glass panel system.

In other words, the FAA ADS-B manadate that will be in effect in less than 7 years now, has provided me with a convenient excuse for buying more gadgets. Has anyone else come to the same conclusion?

Ken,

New for new, the "all electric/glass" revolution cost vs "steam/mechanical instruments" ratio crossed over several years ago.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion :D



Check out the total system price for a dual screen Garmin G3X system complete with remote Mode S/ES xponder and dual band ADS-B receiver. Add the AP as an option if you want it. The G3X now has new firmware that enables the G3X to provide the ES data to the transponder to wake up the ground stations and to be considered a full VFR (For lack of a better term) client by the system. This is legal for now until 2020 when hopefully there will be more cost effective options for position sources available.

If you are going to fly into Canada, I would recommend you go with a 1090ES xponder and forget about the 978 UAT option.
 
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It looks to me like if I want to be able to operate in class B/C airspace here in the US, and be able to operate in Canadian airspace,

Actually it's more airspace than that, anywhere mode C is required now will require ADS-b then. So it's in and OVER any class B & C and over 10,000' msl.
Out west here it will pretty much become mandatory.
Tim

Yeah, I understand that. I'm fairly familiar with airspace classification. Being and old "low-n-slow" guy, I just haven't wrapped my head around the need to fly that high yet.
 
Bill, the Garmin GTX 23 is about $500 cheaper at $2,200 (Spruce), but, yes, it is a remote mount which would require you to purchase additional Garmin hardware. But if you're going with Garmin, probably one of the better deals out there.

Right you are. Since I have a 430W, I started looking for the manuals on the web to see what options I have.

I was disturbed/confused to see a note in the GTX-23 manual that described 3 versions of ADS-B TSO compliance. (Paragraph 1.3.1) Versions 0,1 and 2. According to this chart, the GTX is version 1 and does not comply with the version 2 that is mandated for 2020.

I hope someone on VAF with more knowledge of the GTX 23 can elucidate on the subject.

I am not slamming the Garmin or supporting the Trig via this email. Since I have not read the Trig manuals (yet), I cannot state whether it is better or worse in this regard. Just looking for the truth of the matter.
 
Right you are. Since I have a 430W, I started looking for the manuals on the web to see what options I have.

I was disturbed/confused to see a note in the GTX-23 manual that described 3 versions of ADS-B TSO compliance. (Paragraph 1.3.1) Versions 0,1 and 2. According to this chart, the GTX is version 1 and does not comply with the version 2 that is mandated for 2020.

I hope someone on VAF with more knowledge of the GTX 23 can elucidate on the subject.

I am not slamming the Garmin or supporting the Trig via this email. Since I have not read the Trig manuals (yet), I cannot state whether it is better or worse in this regard. Just looking for the truth of the matter.

Bill,

The last firmware update released for the GTX23ES makes it V2 (TSO-C166b) compliant...it's 100% ready to go with the rules as they stand today.

5jtqb6.png
 
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It sounds like I'll have to have a TSO'd WAAS enabled GPS, as well as a Mode-S transponder. Is that right?

This is true, but it doesn't mean you need a fully TSO'd moving map display. Trig Avionics, for example, seem to have an STC that works with a standalone GPS sensor that should be significantly less expensive than most panel mounted TSO'd moving map displays that many think of when speaking of a WAAS GPS.
 
This is true, but it doesn't mean you need a fully TSO'd moving map display. Trig Avionics, for example, seem to have an STC that works with a standalone GPS sensor that should be significantly less expensive than most panel mounted TSO'd moving map displays that many think of when speaking of a WAAS GPS.

This GPS goes for around $3000.00 for $995.00 more Garmin will sell you a full GNS400W when you buy it with a G3X system.
 
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Sarasota Avionics has a Freeflight unit for $2189. Trig also works with otner manufacturers of standalone GPS sensors. hopefully this will bring prices down even further.

My point, though, is that over time it should be possible to get a transponder/ADS-B out box that doesn't require you to purchase a whole moving map GPS system. I prefer to use my iPad with a current navigation database in VFR conditions than a GNS430W with outdated data. Garmin's database update prices are outrageous. These update prices, more than the initial hardware cost, is what keeps me away from Garmin equipment.
 
Sarasota Avionics has a Freeflight unit for $2189. Trig also works with otner manufacturers of standalone GPS sensors. hopefully this will bring prices down even further.

My point, though, is that over time it should be possible to get a transponder/ADS-B out box that doesn't require you to purchase a whole moving map GPS system. I prefer to use my iPad with a current navigation database in VFR conditions than a GNS430W with outdated data. Garmin's database update prices are outrageous. These update prices, more than the initial hardware cost, is what keeps me away from Garmin equipment.

The Sarasota price you mention is only valid when you purchase another $3500.00+ Rangr box.

I do share your optimism that eventually we will see more GPS only position sources that meet the requirements and for less money. Right now I don't think that solution is significantly less expensive. Eventually I think it will happen. There is one kink in the whole mess however. Last time I researched it, I seem to remember the rules state that the maker of the UAT or S/ES xponder must list the specific position sources approved for use with their box in their installation manuals. This will slow down the adoption of these lower cost GPS only position sources.

Garmin's IFR database update cost are what they are because of Jeppesen and its the price all must pay to play in the IFR world. They pretty much have the market for IFR Nav databases locked up. Garmin has taken steps to help ease the pain with VFR pilots. Their new VFR database options are much less expensive for the portables and the G3X.
 
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The same thing happened with the 406 ELT. My neighbor got very wealthy selling Artex during the height of the 406 ELT hype. You can now buy a 406 ELT for about a fourth of what the early adopters paid.

I will guarantee you that there will be a sub $1000 and most likely sub $500 certified GPS solution before the 2020 requirement arrives.

We have been selling a lot of the Trig/Dynon Mode S ES transponders. Most people are connecting them to an uncertified GPS and waiting for a reasonably priced certified GPS to arrive. The Trig/Dynon Transponder is a lot smaller and lighter than the other options available.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
Garmin's IFR database update cost are what they are because of Jeppesen and its the price all must pay to play in the IFR world.

Garmin themselves don't charge nearly the same for updates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.
 
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Garmin themselves don't charge near.y the same for dates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.

Hmmm... I believe I'd like you to show me a Jepp database for a certified box (or even experimental) for $125 a year or less that you can actually use legally for IFR (your tablet or iFly or whatever isn't). Heck, even the Dynon Jepp data is $175/315 or $295/530 per year. Me thinks you're confusing your tablet for a certified box or an EFIS, of which it is neither. Also, have you actually checked the update prices & options for their G3X EFIS? Then again, the G3X or Dynon isn't a certified GPS either. Just wondering, because you're now comparing apples and onions. :)

BTW I do share the opinion that the Jepp data is expensive, and Rob is probably right that prices will likely fall in he future.

Cheers,
Stein
 
I was not making any distinctions on types of data. The data provides very similar information on both IFR and VFR devices of various kinds. However, even talking VFR data, the database on the Garmin Pilot app looks just like the data on the Garmin handhelds and costs a whole lot less. Garmin and/or Jeppesen are gouging pilots on the database updates.

To get back to the original post, there will eventually be ADS-B systems that don't require expensive database updates and complex hardware to operate. It will still be expensive for the function provided (what in aviation isn't), but not as much as today's solutions.
 
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Garmin themselves don't charge nearly the same for updates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.

Garmin now has a much less expensive database option for their portables and the G3X. Last I checked it was $99/yr. I just looked at two major stores and the Pro package for the Garmin Pilot app was $149.00/yr. Most everyone charges more for Geo-referenced plates because they have to pay royalties/fees to the owner of the patent.

"Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720."

The IFR part of this statement simply is not true because none of those devices are legal for use as primary navigation in the IFR environment.

Many people wonder why Garmin does not provide free VFR database updates like most of their competitors do. I have my own personal theory as to why....LIABILITY!
 
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NavData cost

Brian, What is the annual NavData (from Jepp) cost for your GTN 650?
Can you shoot GPS VLP approaches with an expired database? Someone
indicated that the glideslope function was disabled with an expired
database.
 
Tom,

The prices are all on this sheet.

http://download.garmin.com/avdb/Garmin_Aviation_Database_Price_List.pdf

There are a couple options for me since I have a G3X I can get what they call a PilotPak and realize some savings for keeping the entire panel updated.

The yearly IFR certified Nav database cost for the GTN650 is $550.00/yr. I think the updates direct from Jeppesen are a little cheaper and you have the option to select different regions in the USA.

I honestly don't know about what happens to the GP on expired Nav databases. My guess is it will still work for a period of time.
 
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Brian,

You are correct about IFR/VFR data. I used the wrong terminology. When I said IFR data, I meant approach plates and IFR hi/lo charts, not IFR certified databases.

In the link you provide, the equivalent of the database provided by Garmin Pilot would be the US Lite database, which lists for $249.99 instead of the $100 charged by Gamin ($75 + $25 for Safe Taxi). the other apps are in the same ballpark. WingX Pro is $99.99 for the same functions. Garmin charges 2.5x the cost of their own app to update their other portable devices.

The US Lite subscription doesn't even include approach plates or IFR charts that come with all the iPad apps, further increasing the cost disparity.

(I checked iTunes today, and Garmin Pilot is $74.99 for the basic subscription, $49.99 for the geo-referenced plates and $24.99 for the Safe Taxi data. WingX Pro is even cheaper if you buy a 3 year subscription, and the basic app has all the features of the US Lite database plus all IFR charts.)
 
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When you compare Garmin's aviation portables and G3X system update prices to that of the app based solutions, I would agree that it looks like there is a cost advantage going to the apps.

Bet however that it is not as simple as it first appears on why there is such a difference in cost.
 
....My point, though, is that over time it should be possible to get a transponder/ADS-B out box that doesn't require you to purchase a whole moving map GPS system.....

It seems Dynon (at least for one) shares your optimism:

at http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1369771751
No,[the SV-GPS-250] doesn't [meet TSO C-166b requirements for ADS-B out position source]. You can use it for now, before the mandate goes into effect, but come 2020 you'll need to have a certified GPS as the position source.

For now, if you have a full-fledged TSO'd WAAS navigator like a 430W or a GTN, they meet the FAA requirements. In the future (2020 is a long ways away in technology terms) we predict the market will produce inexpensive certified GPS pucks (something that looks like the SV-GPS-250) since the whole GA fleet basically needs to equip with ADS-B Out.

In the meantime, I guess I'll be mashing rivets, and waiting for those "certified GPS pucks" to become a reality before I buy any avionics for my kit.
 
Brian, What is the annual NavData (from Jepp) cost for your GTN 650?
Can you shoot GPS VLP approaches with an expired database? Someone
indicated that the glideslope function was disabled with an expired
database.

I don't know if the GTN allows you to, but the regs do not. With an explored database, GPS is only allowed during the enroute phase and you must be able to verify the lat/long of the fix used. Reference AC90-105 section 7 "operational considerations.
 
Hey Gary - -

I read the statement "planned - - - - " also, but if the transiever is mounted, and antenna mounted, but the display can be removed, what is considered portable ? ? Thought maybe someone has looked into this system further than I have.
 
iFLy 720 is UAT

Does anyone know if Canada had adopted an ADSB physical Layer?

Are they strictly 1090ES like the EU's Eurocontrol?
 
Does anyone know if Canada had adopted an ADSB physical Layer?

Are they strictly 1090ES like the EU's Eurocontrol?

Nav Canada is using ADS-B Out to support air traffic control at high altitude in the Hudson Bay area, and over parts of the North Atlantic. They see ADS-B Out as providing a low cost means to improve ATC in areas not served by radar.

Transport Canada has adopted the European ADS-B standards, as described in EASA AMC 20-24.

There are apparently no current plans to mandate ADS-B Out for low altitude traffic, or to provide any ADS-B In data to aircraft in Canada. I hope that eventually changes, but I see nothing on the horizon in the next ten years, from my vantage point inside Transport Canada.
 
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