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FatBoy Throttle Quadrant and Flight Control Talk

fatboy

fatboy

Member
Hello RVers,

I wanted to try and get a wide open dialogue going here regarding all things "Throttle Quadrant" and "Flight Control". I have had quite a bit of success with my FatBoy grips (think slightly modified AR15 rifles and you'll get the picture or visit the site -- www.fatboythrottlequadrants.com), and as we go into a new year we are currently working on some design changes/additions based on customer suggestions.

I have had recent conversations with various airline/career, military and GA pilots and switches are invariably a hot topic. So I wanted to try and get some feedback before we commit to new grip and switch offerings.

We are looking at providing more of a selection regarding switching. Does anyone have any personal thoughts/perspective on toggle (double and single pole) and/or 4way mini trim hats, as well as momentary on push buttons? I'd like to find out folks' ideas regarding the following. I'd really appreciate a "have your cake and eat it too" dialogue here. If you really could have anything and everything in a throttle and flight control grip, especially as it relates to your home built project (not to an F-18 fighter jet, although that would be nice) what would it be? ::

1. If you don't already have a quadrant or grip picked out for flight controls and quadrants, what are you looking for in general?

2. What type of electronics would you like to see in a throttle quadrant vs. a flight control grip?

3. Toggle switch: one or two circuits, type of toggle (concave button, standard, convex button), 2, 3, 4 toggles, any other specifications

4. 4way hat switch: where on a grip should this go? what should it be used for? Put it on the flight control stick, both throttle and stick, 2 on the stick and 2 on the throttle, no thanks, none for me?

5. What switch functionality should be left on the flight control grip vs. throttle control grip?

6. Type, number and location of push buttons (momentary on, push on) and position on the throttle/flight grip.

7. Push to talk button -- the ex-fighter jocks are quite religious about this being on the throttle grip. Any other ideas?

8. Centermounts! -- We are currently mounting the throttle grip with a fairly low profile, almost parallel with the quadrant top which gives as much panel clearance and visibility as possible. Any ideas here on electronics as well as placement? I heard from David Shelton (RV10 group) on another thread a good point: how to make the grip symmetrical so that both left and right pilots can use it and have the finger knurls feel the same.

Answer all these questions and I personally guarantee you a white Christmas. Well, if you have any other ideas or suggestions, they are greatly appreciated. This is an area that I think is long overdue for an overhaul of sorts.

Thanks very much for your time, and Happy Holidays to everyone --

Andy
 
My ideas

Flight Control Joystick:
-Push to talk button (button)
-A/P Disconnect (button)
-Smoke System trigger (small toggle w/arming switch on panel)
-China Hat that will control my EFIS/GPS inputs


Throttle Quadrant (built within a center council):

-Maybe another push to talk button
-Elevator Trim
 
I'm one of those old fighter pilots who's religious about having the PTT on the end of the throttle lever. I don't have any other requirements for switches on the throttle.

I think a stick should have a 4-way china hat for elevator and aileron trim, a momentary pushbutton switch for autopilot coupling/CWS, and maybe another pushbutton for smoke or comm flip-flop. That's it. Simple, light, and simple. Did I mention simple?

:D
 
I sure love having my flap switch on my throttle handle. With auto-up feature (and microswitch on the flap motor to shut it off when fully up), it's easy to activate since my hand is already on the throttle when in the pattern.

As I mentioned on another thread, I may re-route my electric fuel pump switch to the throttle as well, because it's a pain to either switch hands on the stick or reach across with my left hand to turn the pump on or off. I didn't think of that when laying out the electrical system. I just used Van's wiring kit.

Those are two indispensible features of an RV throttle, IMO.
 
I like it

I ordered a set of replacement FatBoy levers for my DJM quadrant because I liked the looks of the levers. I finally had a chance to mount them in my quadrant yesterday and my impressions and thoughts are:
It was very easy to drill the levers to fit the TQ I have, even with the steel levers vs the aluminum ones.
Even though I really liked the DJM quadrant, I think the look the new levers provide is better.
There is no difference in the levers and installation/retrofit is pretty painless.
For my installation, the coiled wire might be a bit too big and I may need to move to a smaller diemater cable, since I am only using two momentary switches on the throttle anyway.

As for switches, I chose two momentary switches on the throttle....one for smoke and one for TXP ident. I did this mainly because the Infinity grips already have everything else on them. (In my case, PTT, trim hat, Flaps, boost pump and starter (in sequence with a main arm switch) and flip/flop / AP disc.)

Since a lot of the RV8s have Infinity grips, most folks would use fewer switches on the throttle, but side by side folks might want a wider selection of switches on their throttles.
My opinion is that a selection of switches, that can be put in the grips when ordered, might be the best way. Most everyone wants it their way, which doesn't usually match what everyone else likes. (That's how Infinity does it.)

As a final comment, I found Andy, at FatBoy, extremely easy to work with and I recommend giving him a call if you are looking for a new TQ or to update what you already have.

I'll post a picture of my installation in the next week or so to show a retrofit example.
 
I have about 250 hours on Dayton's TQ and while building I thought it might be nice to have the flap switch on the throttle but after doing my panel layout and mounting the switches where I can reach them while my hand is resting on the TQ, in no way do I want any switch on my throttle.

The reason I don't want buttons on the throttle is that I don't want to bump the throttle when I need to transmit or do anything else. For formation flying, this requirement might be different but since I do limited formation work, HOTS is not an issue for me. However, with careful panel layout, you wind up with that w/o the need to add complexity.

Also, when doing formation work, I rest my hand on the TQ and hook the throttle lever with the thumb of my right hand. I have found that in GA aircraft, using the "T" of throttle quadrant results in gross movements when what you really want is fine movements.

I'm very happy with the "stock" DJM TQ.

Just my $.02
 
Stick Grip Idea

I have Infinity grips in both the -8 and the new -3 we are building, because overall, they it me and my requirements better than anything else I have seen. That does not, however, mean that they are perfect! One thing I have always thought could be better is to move the trim coolie hat to where your thumb naturally rests. Think about it - if you put your hand out in front of you like you are grasping a stick, your thumb does not rest naturally on the top center of the stick (unless it is a round grip). for "righties", it is on the left side, and slightly below the top.

Take a look at this grip:

RHC.JPG


Yes, it's from the Space Shuttle, and the grip is a bit large to accommodate gloved hands. But it is the most natural location for a trim hat of any grips I have tried. The ironic thing is that in this vehicle, we never use the trim, because the flight control system is rate command/attitude hold, the net feeling for the pilot being that it is always in trim.

I'd love to see this idea in an RV grip - much more natural than having your finger on the trim toggle (which is usually what is there on an Infinity). I like the trim toggle on the stick, but if it was swapped with the coolie hat, it would feel better to me.

Paul
 
I'm also from the fighter pilot school of thought... PTT on each throttle (one for each pilot), and a 4-way trim switch on the stick. No autopilot or smoke for me.
John
 
Andy--

We've already discussed the fuel pump switch on the throttle via email...but I tend to agree with the PTT there as well, I just didn't want to press my luck with you ;) With both on the throttle, I'd have to think about which goes where, but I'd prefer them both there versus control stick and panel mounted.

Control stick wise, I'd like to see the 4 point trim switch, a thumb actuated flap switch (momentary up or down, off in the center), and an AP disconnect.

I'm not a big fan of the "military style" stick grips, although I realize the Infinity gives me pretty much want I want/am asking from you. If you could couple these desires into your grips...ship it out!

Joe
 
Fatboy Throttle Handle

I definitely like the look of the new Fatboy Throttle and plan to buy one if Andy can get the switches that I want. I have been in the hunt for a way to put switches in my throttle handle since the middle phase of building my RV-8 and have not come up with anything satisfactory. The Fatboy Throttle may just be the ticket.

For my stick, I use an Infinity grip and like it very much. Of all the products I?ve found, the Infinity is the closest approximation to a real military stick grip. But I?ve never liked having Push To Talk on the stick, and have always wanted it on the throttle as is the norm in the tactical military airplanes that I have flown,. Formation flying and aerobatics are the focus of my RV flying, and PTT just doesn't work well on the stick for those applications. My plan with the Fatboy would be to have PTT on the throttle, controlled with the thumb (muscle memory from my Navy days) and the second switch for the smoke system, controlled with the index finger.

I'm anxious to see a Fatboy grip in person, and I would agree with Steve Formhals comment that the coiled wire appears to be larger than I would like, and I may try to rig up something different, and a little less bulky.

As for my 2 cents worth for what switches should go on the throttle or stick grip, I personally am a firm believer in Murphy?s Law, if it can go wrong, it will. If it?s possible to accidently bump a flap switch protruding out of a stick or throttle, then I?ll do it, and at the worst possible time. For that reason, I?m not a fan of flap controls on either handle, especially if you intend to do aerobatics or aggressive maneuvering with your airplane. My Infinity grip currently has fuel boost pump, engine start (thru a master switch that must be on to arm the start switch), trim, autopilot disconnect, PTT (I'd like to move PTT to the throttle), and a pushbutton to mute the voice on my Angle of Attack system which has turned out to be really handy at times.

Jim Gray
RV-8 N747JG 250 hours
Evergreen, CO
 
throttle quadrant stick grip switch

Thanks very much for all the feedback --

Jim, this is for you and the other folks that have been inquiring about a momentary ON / OFF / momentary ON toggle or rocker switch. I have sourced an excellent military spec quality concave/tactile thumb pad style toggle, but it is definitely a "higher end" item. It is on the site if anyone wants to look at it. I will end up using this in the Radial Rocket, on which hand and which function, I'm not sure yet.

I have also ordered a bunch of smaller more conventional "bat" style toggles. These are meant to be low profile for the safety/"oops" reasons pointed out here, mine will have an approximate .5 height vs. the normal .75 to .875 height. They should be 1/3rd the price of the higher end switch, which is my reasoning here in adding this accessory -- just trying to give us as many options as possible.

I'll keep posting here as I move along. The goal is to give us as many options as possible based on the ongoing feedback.
 
Installed in the RV-3....

Here is an updated picture of the throttle quadrant of our RV-3 project with the new Fatboy grip that I recieved this afternoon. It took just a little tweaking to install it in my DJM quadrant, and to make the bends right for the RV-3 - it fits to my hand better than any throttle I have ever held! (Louise has a few concerns about the PTT on the end for her thumb - might be more comfortabel with it under the index finger - we have to do some sittign in the cockpit to figure it out, but it's too cold to work out there tonight...).

Throttle Closed:
IMG_0437.JPG


Throttle Open:
IMG_0438.JPG
 
Just curious - these don't say "Hogue" on the side of the grip do they? They look exactly like Hogue AR-15 overmolded grips..

A-2%20Hogue%20Mono%20Grip-small-a.jpg
 
Tram said:
Wonder if he sells just the adapter plate..
Click to expand...

He might, but it appears that a complete grip is about $60, and a bare Hogue grip is $18-25 depending on where you buy it.

$40 to work out the mounting seems like a deal :)

On the other hand, It would be a fun project to "roll your own" from a Hogue grip, but I know that for me at least, It would kill an entire weekend.
 
flyeyes said:
He might, but it appears that a complete grip is about $60, and a bare Hogue grip is $18-25 depending on where you buy it.

$40 to work out the mounting seems like a deal :)

On the other hand, It would be a fun project to "roll your own" from a Hogue grip, but I know that for me at least, It would kill an entire weekend.
Click to expand...

Good points.. :)

I'm wondering how one of these can be adapted to the control grip..
 
Last edited:
Ironflight said:
...Louise has a few concerns about the PTT on the end for her thumb...
Click to expand...

Paul, with the PTT on your throttle, what are you using the trigger switch for on your Infinity? Also, did you go with the 45* angle on the throttle? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
8CW said:
Paul, with the PTT on your throttle, what are you using the trigger switch for on your Infinity? Also, did you go with the 45* angle on the throttle? Thanks.
Click to expand...

We are going to use both the throttle button and the trigger on the stick for PTT - either one will work, so we can have our choice (whichever that will be - it will be interesting to see which I like more).

On the angle, I did a little custom tweaking on the steel lever to make the grip clear the throttle and end up parallel to the DJM levers (I think they are 45 degrees, but didn't take a protractor to them. I really like the results! Louise has noticed that the grip doesn't really fit her smaller hand - the finger indentations are spaced for larger knuckles. It's OK for her, but not as nice as she'd like it - just something to think about for those with smaller hands, or wives that share the airplane....;)
 
The gorrilla hand grip

I'm pretty sure that I'll use the Infinity trigger for PTT instead of the Fatboy PTT in the -3. I have a little arthritis in my thumb/palm and find the position on the Fatboy in an awkward position.

As Paul noted, I wouldn't chose the current Fatboy throttle grip for myself because it is designed for gorrilla hands. It would be great if he offered a "ladies" version but I'm sure the market would be tiny and that still wouldn't solve the needs of Paul and I flying the same plane. A non-indented, angled grip would probably serve us better, but I'm sure Paul wouldn't like it as much.
 
Fat boy stic grips!

I was shopping for some stick grips for my -8 and was surprised that i could not find anything that i was satisfied with?. I found some that felt like cheep plastic but the cost was right, then the others were 500-600 dollars each and out of my price ange resulting in a call to Andy at Fatboy grips.I told him that he should offer something in the line of grips that he offers for the quadrants. He told me to give him a few weeks and he would have some!. Three weeks later they were in the mail box and they look great!. I think they represent the most bang for the buck and it was refreshing to deal with someone that did what they said they would ! Two thumbs up for everyone at fat boy!.
 
jeffrj2007 said:
I was shopping for some stick grips for my -8 and was surprised that i could not find anything that i was satisfied with?. I found some that felt like cheep plastic but the cost was right, then the others were 500-600 dollars each and out of my price ange resulting in a call to Andy at Fatboy grips.I told him that he should offer something in the line of grips that he offers for the quadrants. He told me to give him a few weeks and he would have some!. Three weeks later they were in the mail box and they look great!. I think they represent the most bang for the buck and it was refreshing to deal with someone that did what they said they would ! Two thumbs up for everyone at fat boy!.
Click to expand...

You have any pics of these installed? I'm seriously considering picking up a pair for the 6..

I've switched to Hogue grips on almost all of my guns and love them, it'd be that much nicer to have on in the plane.. :)
 
FatBoy Tactile Toggle Flight and Throttle Grip Switch

In case anyone is interested, we finally got the tactile toggle switches in and got our first order out today. I have just a few on the first run -- I have a couple configured as (ON) OFF (ON) and a few more as (ON) OFF ON. () means momentary, no () means maintained on. We also have a more "cost effective" mini toggle in 3 configs -- (ON) OFF (ON), ON OFF ON, and (ON) OFF ON.

Here is some video of the full tactile military spec toggle:

http://www.fatboythrottles.com/productThrottleGrip.php?id_product=13

Tram -- There are some RV install pics here --

http://www.fatboythrottles.com/throttle_quadrant_pictures.php

Hey Jeff! Let me know if you have some pictures when you get a chance, and I'll post up on the site.

Andy
 
Good News!

Hey Guys. I just chatted with Andy and they are not going out of business. His shop is being remodeled and they are real busy with that (and his regular work). He also says the web site has been down for several months and he hopes within a month he will get things going and back on track. He asked to be patient and he'll let us know. Dave
 
That's good news Dave - I have found that flying with his throttle grip in our -3 is a joy - it is the perfect fit for our cockpit, and puts my wrist in a very natural position.
 
Throttle wiring

Ironflight said:
We are going to use both the throttle button and the trigger on the stick for PTT - either one will work, so we can have our choice (whichever that will be - it will be interesting to see which I like more).

On the angle, I did a little custom tweaking on the steel lever to make the grip clear the throttle and end up parallel to the DJM levers (I think they are 45 degrees, but didn't take a protractor to them. I really like the results! Louise has noticed that the grip doesn't really fit her smaller hand - the finger indentations are spaced for larger knuckles. It's OK for her, but not as nice as she'd like it - just something to think about for those with smaller hands, or wives that share the airplane....;)
Click to expand...

Paul,
How do you wire the PTT and prevent it from interfering with the lever itself? Really like the looks of how yours turned out.

Dave
 
Dreaming

Still in the planning/dreaming stage so no hands-on experience with any of these avionics. It seems to me that it might be nice to have PTT trigger and flip-flop switch say right thumb on the stick grip. Then an easy method for changing freq on throttle.

This poses two questions.

Do many of the common avionics have the ability to remotely flip flop between radios/NAV? Same question with frequency?

I realize the future may be direct input keypad, but I have used similar systems In military aircraft that make it VERY nice when tuning...

"Switch to approach 124.25, tacan channel 41X"
Say you are on 123.45 and 105Y

Cursor is on radio first digit, take middle finger left hand (rocker switch up/down/enter)enter, enter to get over the 3, rocker up to change 3 to 4, enter, rocker up twice for 2 to 4, enter, enter. You just set freq. Right thumb presses flip flop, now its active. Right pinky presses another switch that changes to com, same process for nav radio.

Sounds a bit tedious maybe, but once familiar, becomes very quick for single piloted or backset not having access to radios.
 
flip flop (not a political commentary)

Lamps, its an audio panel function in my plane and its on one button of the grip. Com1, Com2, Com1 .. alternating.
I know that coms with flip flop button functions, and that is a bunch of them nowadays, can be so wired too. Mine is not. But that would give you active/standby flip flop on a given com radio. The variety is dizzying.
 
Ergonomics

Like Paul said, I really like the hat switch to be more natural feeling. Here are some pics from our helo:

qrg6qp.jpg


rvdnyc.jpg

It really is a nice location for the thumb


2q3c5sy.jpg

The thumb gets to stay in a more natural position.
 
fatboy has put on some more weight

Jumping back in to this out dated conversation for sure but just wanted to say hi after a bit of a hiatus. 3 practices and two games a week for my little leaguers will put a lot of dust on an airframe! New machine shop and a new grip and I'm busy again.

I spoke with Mark the other day and I will be purchasing his remaining quadrant parts stock. I will have single, double and triple lever quadrants, reversible as well, available to ship in a couple weeks. First two are going to a Radial Rocket builder in South Africa!

Mark is also working on going to an all delrin quadrant (less the levers and drum assembly), of which he tells me is even smoother. Trouble right now is getting a more precise machine to handle that, but I believe my shop can do this, so I'm going to work with him on this as well. Just have to work out all the details.

Please feel free to say hi here or contact me via email (all contact information is on the site).

I have a new "fatter" grip that in my opinion feels even better than the original grip. It will give us 3 switch stations on the head. Times 2 grips, and we're up to 6 switches and up to 14 functions. It aint a helicopter grip, but we'll take it! ** Cannot house the full size tactile toggle on the new flight grip, however, I will be using a mini trim toggle switch instead here -- momentary only. To compensate for this, I'll have available an alternate action tactile maintained push button. First click, maintained on circuit is closed, second click, maintained off.

I have helicopter grip envy looking at those pics. Wonder if anyone is flying fixed wing with one of those?

Hope it is ok to list the url here -- can't afford Dan yet -- need some more momentum!

Hope all is well . . . Andy

www.fatboyflightworks.com
 
fatboy said:
Hello RVers,

I wanted to try and get a wide open dialogue going here regarding all things "Throttle Quadrant" and "Flight Control". I have had quite a bit of success with my FatBoy grips (think slightly modified AR15 rifles and you'll get the picture or visit the site -- www.fatboythrottlequadrants.com), and as we go into a new year we are currently working on some design changes/additions based on customer suggestions.

Andy
Click to expand...

Andy, I'm having difficulties with your referenced website. :confused: I want to visit; but just get some jibberish. :(
 
Dang Nick you need to tell the AT's to do a better 7 day and also inform the single bar pilots the MFDs aren't touch screens!
 
Fatboy

Andy,
Are you still making?
Your site is down, but my 8 project is ready for a quadrant and grips.
David
 
Anyone heard what has happened to Fatboy? I really liked their grips & throttle quadrants, but can't find a trace left of them.
 
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