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Photos: Really good baffle seals

DanH

Legacy Member
Mentor
Considering all RV fabrication tasks, the thing I most often see done badly is baffle sealing rubber. Flap seals arranged so they blow open, seals that seal against nothing, puckers, gaps, overlaps, you name it...the list of sins appears to be endless.

However, I have seen some installations that were beautiful. Believe me, I look; I'm the nut case who walks around fly-ins while peering into cowl openings like some kind of airplane up-skirt pervert ;)

Builders need to see some really good seals. Who has pictures? Who can show us how it's done? Post those photos please. You'll help a whole generation of RV builders enjoy lower CHT and oil temperature, while going faster due to reduced cooling drag.
 
Great idea! I really had to do a lot of head scratching to even guess where the rubber parts go around the flywheel area and around the outer parts of the cowl air cooling inlets.

Not putting this out as "good" but this is Vans RV-7 picture for the O-360 baffle kit instructions.

Vans-baffles_zpszpgicinm.jpg
 
What, no photos?

It's a sorry situation if nobody is proud of their baffle seals.
 
I went with a plenum mostly so I wouldn't have to mess with baffle seals!
 
Place holder

Hi Folks,
I finally got a chance to take some better pictures to post here.

IMHO, good baffle sealing starts with the inlet ramp fabrication and planning how to do the interface between the ramps and the seal fabric.

Fabrication of the inlet ramps with modification

Here are overview pictures. The rear and side seals are easy and probably similar to every one else. The tricky bits are up front around the inlets.

33790122857d5d1dc1537c.jpg



Note the shape of the nose seals. With the ramp modifications in the link above, the seals have a place to sit. Ignore the gap at the top. Even though there is a pucker, it is sealed with adhesive.

55540624357d5d1dc12139.jpg


201771211057d5d1dc1161c.jpg


The below pics were taken with a crappy borescope, sorry.
This one is the outer seal at #1 cylinder.

183383573357d5d1dc15b0b.jpg



Outer seal at #2 Cylinder

48408941157d5d1dc16255.jpg


Inner nose seal at #1 cylinder, close to cowl inlet

13751414757d5d30d7256d.jpg


Inner nose seal at #1 cylinder, further into the cowl looking across towards the engine case.

202226336557d5d30d7296d.jpg


Inner nose seal at #2 cylinder

113734177957d5d30d730c2.jpg


Inner nose seal at #2 cylinder further into the cowl looking towards the engine case

178583174357d5d30d72d34.jpg



Lastly, the wear pattern on the top cowl. I think it is pretty good. There are two places that still have slight puckers and the wear pattern is not as robust as I would like it. Its kind of a perfectionist project now since the cooling works great .

156494063557d5d1dbee7c2.jpg
 
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Great thread, Dan. I will post some pictures when I get home. I will add that besides having the rubbe/silicone seals done well, it also helps greatly to use the high temp RTV around the areas where the baffles meet the crankcase, especially in the front of the engine. There is usually a lot of room for air to leak to the bottom of the cowl in these spots, thereby pressurizing the lower cowling and stopping the air flow from the top.
And don't forget to clean the sand casting between the fins around the spark plugs. Makes a big difference in cooling.

Vic
 
I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

59y7n7.jpg


t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.
 
Curious if people have better luck with more rigid and traditional baffle seal material than what Van's supplies. I have a few spots where it "puckers". This may be my "it's too cold to fly" winter project.
 
I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

59y7n7.jpg


t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.

This looks quite a bit like the Bonanza "go to" baffles from D'Shannon. I installed them on my Bonanza and almost never see CHT's above 380- and that only in climb on a hot day. (Of course it also has cowl flaps).
 
atta boy!

I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.

I think there should be an HBO Special telling us how to do this. Lacking that, a youtube video would do...:D

Carry on!
Mark
 
I think there should be an HBO Special telling us how to do this. Lacking that, a youtube video would do...:D

Carry on!
Mark

The ?HBO special? wouldn?t last very long ? this is a lot easier than it looks!

I discuss the ?how to? a bit in this thread:

If anyone has any questions after seeing the above ? shoot. I?m happy to share my methods.
 
My biggest head scratcher was at the intersection of the baffle strips and the parts attached to the lower cowl. This include how much to trim off Vans baffle kit at the air inlets.

It seems to be an area that is hard to photograph and the baffle instruction are sparse in this area...:)
 
I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

59y7n7.jpg


t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.

silicone is my next upgrade. what is the difference between the blue and red silicone other than the color? thx
 
Baffle Seals

I used the one-piece with backing strips method with the Vans material. The back and sides are not too difficult to get to follow the contour of the cowl exactly. The front parts are a little more challenging, but I think can be done this way also.

29476662026_cee5808a4c_z.jpg
[/url]BafflesLeft by Jim Carey, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
Engine Mount Covers

I live next door to a real craftsman who showed me how to make these round engine mount covers that look like they belong in a bra... They were hammered out of 3003 soft sheet, annealed once during the process. I had to rivet an extension on to the front baffle near cyl #1 because the gap was too wide to fill with RTV.

29430826251_89188288f8_z.jpg
[/url]Baffles Front by Jim Carey, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
silicone is my next upgrade. what is the difference between the blue and red silicone other than the color? thx

I've used both and I could not tell any difference. Just a note to be aware- the stuff I have here is the non reinforced "pure silicone" material. The other stuff has fabric imbedded. I've not tried the "tuck and stretch" method used here with the reinforced material, but I suspect it will be a bit less compliant.
 
Keep 'em coming folks.

I'll bet what everyone really wants to see are...

(1) Used baffle seals. You know, the ones with some significant number of flight hours. Wear marks tell the tale about sealing success, or the lack.

(2) Details around the inlets, and in the area behind the spinner, the areas where most of the leakage is seen. It's critical to seal well in the inlet area, as that is where the highest pressures are found. Lose it there, and everything downstream suffers.

Example; this from NASA CR3405; pressure coefficients measured in four areas of an upper plenum volume:

 
After posting pictures of my seals with a couple of "puckers" Dan admonished me and pointed out those are also know as air leaks. Back to the drawing board...now they fit nice. The reinforcement strips limits the use of silicone between the rivets.

 
Bill Pendergrass and I spent about an hour walking the lines at Triple Tree last Saturday, camera in hand, peering into the cowls of a great many RV's (and a few others).

The average baffle seals are abysmal.

Can't see very far back into the upper volume, so I didn't bother looking at seals above the cylinders and along the back wall. Here the focus was on sealing around the inlets.

This poor soul conveniently removed his cowl and went off somewhere. Sealing against the upper cowl appears to be non-existent at "A". The flap at "B" is riveted to the center baffle aluminum, so pressure blows the flap open, rather than against a hard surface for sealing. The outer end at "C" is just sort of stuffed into the area between the end of the upper fiberglass ramp and the inner cowl.



Predictably, given the state of sealing, the installation required louvers in the lower cowl:



Riveting the inboard seal to the aluminum wall (and hoping it will somehow seal against the backside of the fiberglass) must be on a published drawing somewhere, because it sure is common. If the wall and the fiberglass are offset from each other just so, and the aluminum extends up to or behind the fiberglass, it is possible to use the baffle rubber as a sort of gasket. It's not a good seal, just ok. Here you can just see wear marks at "A", indicating this seal runs in close contact with the glass. However, the upper seal, the one that runs around the upper edge of the wall, is a mess where it meets the ramp at "B":



The builder did not get the inboard flap just so on the other side, and the result is predictable. Pressure simply blows the flap in, away from the glass. It's a very common leak indeed.



Not all seals were terrible. Here's a nicely done outboard inlet. Note the curved piece at "A", which gives the seal on the lower cowl lip something to seal against. "B" is nice and tight against the ramp, and pressure blows it even tighter. The end tucks under the upper cowl lip at "C", and matches its curve. Although the tuck-under doesn't allow pressure sealing at this point, the fold doesn't allow it to blow open either, and the inlet flow can't blow it away from the ramp. Note the overlap at "D".

BTW, let's hope the builder injected some silicone sealant behind the curved aluminum piece at "A", or the air will just leak behind it.



This one is Bill's. It's an inboard doppelganger of the outboard seal shown above. Same nice tight fit, same lower seal overlap (gray), same tuck.



These are not the only bad and good ways to seal, but merely a few examples from this weekend's fly-in visit.
 
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Am I missing something? The reference that you quote in post #23, shows that the pressure is greater at the front center of the cowl than it is aft of the front baffle, and yet the photos showing the upper baffle strip such as the one in post #10, show that the top center strip is pressurized from the engine side of the baffle. I'm not quite seeing how there's greater pressure above the engine than there is from the nose area, but that's what the photo suggests.

If this is correct (i.e., it actually works that way) then I'd think that the spinner, cowl lips and flywheel must act as a sort of labyrinth seal all by themselves, especially compared to the inlet openings. The things that Crabandy is doing in his recent posts on his excellent build log (thanks, Andy!) will enhance that considerably.

Do we have any pressure data for the area behind the flywheel but in front of that front center baffle on RVs? Might be enlightening, especially if it differs significantly from CR-3405. At this moment I have a mental image of an RV engine installation with sensors all around it like a porcupine skin.

Thanks also for this great thread. This is a subject that I have a mere layman's knowledge of and it's pretty interesting.

Dave
 
Am I missing something? The reference that you quote in post #23, shows that the pressure is greater at the front center of the cowl than it is aft of the front baffle....

I suspect you're misinterpreting Fig 45.

Text translation: In the climb condition (a) it shows a Cp of about 1.1 on the outboard side of the left inlet, dropping to about 0.4 on the inboard side of the left inlet. In the right inlet, the outboard side is at about 1.2 while the inboard side is at about 0.8.

In the cruise condition (b), Cp was fairly symmetrical for the two inlets, about 1.0 along the outboard walls, dropping to 0.9 along the inboard walls.

Neither illustration offers any Cp information for the area forward for the front baffle wall, around the case nose, flywheel, and propshaft.

Do we have any pressure data for the area behind the flywheel but in front of that front center baffle on RVs?

With a propshaft seal in place, that area is simply part of the lower cowl volume, as is the accessory case area around the mags. Several of us have measured lower cowl pressure. Not surprisingly, it is less than upper cowl pressure, and greater than freestream static.

Andy's propshaft seal is not a new idea. Tom Martin flew a foam seal many hours on his Rocket, and I've got 500 or so hours on this rubber strip seal.



Lower cowl pressure pushes it against the ring gear carrier. You can see the burnished paint strip in this photo:

 
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I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

59y7n7.jpg


t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.

I like this one
 
Am I missing something? The reference that you quote in post #23, shows that the pressure is greater at the front center of the cowl than it is aft of the front baffle, and yet the photos showing the upper baffle strip such as the one in post #10, show that the top center strip is pressurized from the engine side of the baffle. I'm not quite seeing how there's greater pressure above the engine than there is from the nose area, but that's what the photo suggests.

If this is correct (i.e., it actually works that way) then I'd think that the spinner, cowl lips and flywheel must act as a sort of labyrinth seal all by themselves, especially compared to the inlet openings. The things that Crabandy is doing in his recent posts on his excellent build log (thanks, Andy!) will enhance that considerably.

Do we have any pressure data for the area behind the flywheel but in front of that front center baffle on RVs? Might be enlightening, especially if it differs significantly from CR-3405. At this moment I have a mental image of an RV engine installation with sensors all around it like a porcupine skin.

Thanks also for this great thread. This is a subject that I have a mere layman's knowledge of and it's pretty interesting.

Dave

I'm just a student of some of the idols on VAF, reading/learning/building/trying to copy what has been done before. Maybe someday I'll have an original idea, but it will always be a product of ideas/solutions that others have shared. I Thank them for sharing and challenging us all to do better.
 
This is a really good thread. C'mon, there must be more engine baffle pics out there. Don't be shy. Yes, I have an ulterior motive. Guess what I'm working on right now... Redoing the forward baffling and seals near the inlets on my -6.
 
I looked at the pictures Dan posted showing some issues with the baffling on that RV. From looking and the narrative, I would think the plane would overheat so bad and have so much drag, it wouldn't fly. Yet, it does. In fairness, the cowling was off for some reason.

It is either a testament to the design of the plane or engine - or both. Im working on my baffling and plenum now and so paranoid about holes and air leaks, it is driving me nuts. I worry about cooling so I guess it is a good thing to go nuts this time!

I have a James cowl and BillL built a beautiful plenum for me. I have everything going for me possible so hopefully I will stay cool enough. I will get some pictures posted. In my opinion, it is looking pretty good.
 
Enjoy the critique on that plane at the fly-in. What's the "proper" way to do this area, assuming the incorrect way is published somewhere and that's what so many people are using?
 
Inlet baffle seals

I'm also looking for the right way to do this - the instructions are very vague in this area, and if there is an obvious right way that's tried and tested, I'd like to use it.
 
Keep 'em coming folks.
Example; this from NASA CR3405; pressure coefficients measured in four areas of an upper plenum volume:


Dan, there is a key word in this figure that you are missing. This is Total pressure coefficient. Total pressure is the stagnation pressure of the flowing air. Through the throat area of the inlets, the flow velocity is at it's maximum, and therefore the static pressure is much lower than the total pressure.

I don't have data, but I find it hard to believe that the inboard side of the inlet has higher static pressure than the stagnated air behind the spinner.
 
Looks good...

It would be really nice to see some pictures of how you dealt with the inlet transition and ramps... My CHTs are running a little higher than I would like and this is where I have trouble visualizing exactly what to do...

I have not yet addressed the area around the ring carier, but as far as I'm concerned, this is how you do the perimeter:

59y7n7.jpg


t8x82f.jpg


One piece of rubber and even clamping at the fasteners assures minimal leakage. I have a few hundred hours on it now and the edges of the seal show perfect contact with the upper cowl.
 
Dan, there is a key word in this figure that you are missing. This is Total pressure coefficient. Total pressure is the stagnation pressure of the flowing air. Through the throat area of the inlets, the flow velocity is at it's maximum, and therefore the static pressure is much lower than the total pressure.

Figure 44 is a 0.3 Vi/Vo inlet. By definition, velocity (and thus remaining dynamic pressure) in the inlet throat is low, only 3/10's of freestream velocity. Static + Dynamic = Total, thus if dynamic is low, static must be high.

There's a natural tendency to think of inlets as a choke point, the narrow passage in the Bernoulli tube illustration...high velocity, low static pressure. It isn't so. Just for fun, carefully add up the measured area of the passages between the fins on your cylinders. My 390 cylinders only total about 23 sq inches of flow area, all four together. Add 12 for the oil cooler scat hose, for a total of 35. The inlets total 56.5. The exit is about 30 in cruise configuration, and about 46 in slow mode.

Radical example? Maybe, but again, go measure some Van's inlets. They're all fundamentally external diffusion, Vi/Vo <1. For sure, none are Vi/Vo greater than 1, which would be required to drop static pressure below freestream static at a point aft of the inlet plane.

I don't have data, but I find it hard to believe that the inboard side of the inlet has higher static pressure than the stagnated air behind the spinner.

A very localized condition? Interesting theory. You seem to be arguing that a baffle flap on the inboard wall can be fastened to the sheet metal, and it will blow outward against the fiberglass. Care to measure static pressure on each side of that flap, and prove or disprove? I'll give you an incentive. The volume around the nose case, forward of the front baffle wall, is part of the lower cowl volume, which is indeed above freestream static. Not a lot, but...
 
Well, I'm not sure mine qualify for the thread's title...

I added fillets to the lower outboard inlet areas:

tmrbhQmtalaImaiIplietTe_Mh4X5bf11-BBpf-9k7_dPmIHc9PUKpMFnElKFiBtHoKcUAMm84w8507yiJ0Z4iVcmoO-FXXaM9RboCSLT5yF2bx3hPh8lJsYAoNcpmiaYuoPU7F1Jj0TG-hp75sAyHWhQ08AB3yt42WgsKBEysL6at3M6yuWLe0FHOj5kgQ7986Xfv0nQSWW9ueqlaN13T1URthuQTWy0L3eEXUHb6Qz-Wp0X4VozR25ir1WyhiidkCwY-co2HmFks8XiE25odP0KbJVEW59hYKNBK-Z0VvwAlLRtadvP4G1thbwawHryG2HkF2O1vMnLkgTKlGFlXFCbz-NvNApyCnz3pclYhsgjsMlOcPVUdWTbrUWAa4DbsOggUuR2yJBAJyK_K7sJI9k4dBDIbHVT6qXv_NBGKaKK-qa_yXs301j2PT01A3K_b91mHvzqdfqvlDQCtHDetAKU3B316nHzfXun8ioo6BKE7feIdnBImQM5teuo3UHxoCFT20QoCkZeMyl0OP84A00SCyfgv-1Tgs5RFoDXwZgz89ZaEXie8jH1txE4nDWUMLOGjrHUbHv7BpUvMxrICcuMyUp16I8i8TG0ojKgKAPbHff=w720-h960-no


These baffle seals have 1540 hours, no meaningful wear:

glYxHneTqABA5PP16vqh9jQY15z4MLWY88mXiT8idK60EZBtk7k-aS0NXZpd00INo41DdEdLfBypL66cZzCOKjss_o0_fr2TLGIhOmWZjzAJxXwa9DafoPyUQLnlsO-XIvZFz2aHJY3Bo3SMFefAfRrrpHgw9qP0ih0cfYpVvpzvdCQ7i2wGPxO4c794fLWy_CaD9qxl7K5korsOFvDtfPjbH2gIM9FHoEmPc2kOmZS0E21BlfKqICuoZVOEAjWPLqGOoTN0yEEzctSu99Rxgb5hS2kB58i5JNjv3XbNwembgiMgEZGMHL12YrvKl8aYFNOKJUeMWHdef5XfTKBvpFm-LtTZYb5hfIJSR-X5oPiuzXAjqyAuVk43UMJfb7e8g2Q-OXyvczwvSXdIKzjQOSAAlz-i0F-_7VJAY83LFWGVOSVnX9LpFq108EnGEPBdm4c_v4cpKkpBKrEZufhBGqWonk72NIk4xB_aW_j3QcAZ3u-pDaK2IlZ1JMD2tdo51xGHQRr7v6lRDmV0YnNSU4p7O5OR7BctqIuKHkpLiJC_Ariyvq85vfQhyr8Wn5iGaArap4GrD4FVIe2MYBEgIXGrsdT45Wh-XtzNdUz3R2IbhyHl=w640-h480-no


A little wear on this:

pSAelrlBg0ZaaKEJqCU2UiMJ-9X_1418v8Akc8oaiT978GCLqEav-GYiO7YDkkqZAkVMFlvaC50TxM4O74SC67ZZkfRWbaD2Deg7MR8uKWYCYR3yyN5vIRIdTzh0nc6uwhuLTLDEs7xxFffg49DDqAV2XWIGelvosUzt408BrPoj5gwaMQqSn2Q9XHJQTbIbgLotjriDTAWaS_oYqOFnPrdurcSRiBBvMgRYWePn_K1Plxk5RkC1K3UQCIIlC_FYjaiVvARevNnOZ6Q1EEG-uMUmahhJGzJbEFVLnsZPjOkMjwr-apEh4xOnZKg72Enuvxe1FAPZNz7AYGua0KF1XjYrv-fPnyxBOj4F-DaOeuRqjr5prmqQ-uTsTXYH6oiF-NgHzLRoQJXBC_3kNMyjVcrChRXqmjZDWBGoW-fwtr89_jHwWMo3b7irYh5h8WiJFlSf14zZyd7xUPQFNKoDdsAAgS2OdgK-Luhpf5RJwUNnymTwbOt_AjI4SGT5c_rX1_vZLAvUJZ5YjhiC-Yk1eQiG_yXp0h-LMLzY7CW5dzVKnXFXtFGy5ZTqO0Kh4M4qRmccyxiFZmz---n-1N9ckKXSCmzwQxEMcenmkTLZHoPQ2xw-=w720-h960-no



Years ago, I rigged up a manometer in the cockpit, and calculated that I was getting nearly full pressure recovery on the top. I run very cool cht's and oil. CHT's with OAT of 60F at altitude might be around 320F at a power setting of 8gph, KTAS 168 or so.
 
Inlet baffle seals

Thanks Alex, those are probably the most clear pictures of the way to do the baffles around the inlet that I've seen, and clear up a lot for me.
 
Mr. Peterson said:

Years ago, I rigged up a manometer in the cockpit, and calculated that I was getting nearly full pressure recovery on the top. I run very cool cht's and oil. CHT's with OAT of 60F at altitude might be around 320F at a power setting of 8gph, KTAS 168 or so.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any data? Does your "full pressure" mean the dynamic pressure at the speed you were measuring?

mjb
 
Do you have any data? Does your "full pressure" mean the dynamic pressure at the speed you were measuring?

mjb

Marc, yes, based on speed, temp, altitude, etc., it was very nearly full recovery. The data is probably in a stack of stuff in a safe place... It might even be somewhere in these forums, but I don't recall.
 
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Thanks Alex, those are probably the most clear pictures of the way to do the baffles around the inlet that I've seen, and clear up a lot for me.

Mickey, I'm glad it helps. I just couldn't see putting a square peg in a round hole:eek: I don't recall how the plans said to deal (or not) with that area. I think I just used some .016" aluminum to make that fillet.
 
Alex, I agree. Those are very good pictures. I just changed all my forward baffling from "seal on the cowl" to "seal on the ramps". I remember asking Van's which way to go (wayyyy back when...) and they said either way will work. I also extended the lower cowl seal way up the sides. They didn't even go out past the "curve". Now everything looks like yours. I don't have a lot of time on the mod but it looks like CHT's 10-12 degrees lower and oil temp 5-10.
 
Marc, yes, based on speed, temp, altitude, etc., it was very nearly full recovery. The data is probably in a stack of stuff in a safe place... It might even be somewhere in these forums, but I don't recall.

Alex, I am very interested in the data, but it's not something I need right now.

I understand from Zavatson that 60% is pretty good, but "very nearly full" would seem to be greater.

Next, where can I view photos of your efforts?

TIA

mjb
 
Big Curves

Hi Guys,
I have a question. I'm reworking my seals and need some advice. What size material should I use when working the curvy sections around the spinner and the back of baffled area. Should I just bend the **** out of 3" wide material or should I be using something wider?
 
Hi Guys,
I have a question. I'm reworking my seals and need some advice. What size material should I use when working the curvy sections around the spinner and the back of baffled area. Should I just bend the **** out of 3" wide material or should I be using something wider?

I wish I would've used a larger 1 piece around the curvy sections, instead I ended up using lots of short sections like most do to conform to the curves but leak at the overlaps.
Next time I would use a sheet of cheap vinyl or similar to mimic the baffle seal as I cut/trimmed and pieced together a pattern to make a 1 piece seal. The resulting pattern will tell you what size material you need. In the end I think it's faster and easier to make a 1 piece pattern to cut a finished piece of baffling than to fit lots of little pieces, not to mention a better seal. Just a theory but an easy one to try.....
 
From reviewing this thread it would appear my front/middle baffle seal is pointing the wrong way. It's edge is tucked under(behind) the wrap around portion of the top cowl. I thought maybe the pressure inside would be higher than the pressure behind the gear and keep the seal tight?

Or, does this seal need to be angled backwards for better seal? If so, does the seal where it curves backward need to be redone?

PS This RV-9A is new to me and runs hot.

Hope the picture compensates for my poor description.

3


Looks like I haven't figure out picture posting, maybe the following will help.

http://tinypic.com/m/jike8x/3
 
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Definitely should be the other way around. I'm guessing if you reverse them it will help with your cooling issues, but would also guess that there may be other baffling problems too. Worth going over and making sure every possible place is sealed.

Chris
 
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