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Another first for me and N159SB today....

Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Another first for me and N159SB today....

I finally got the guts up to ROLL it!

Figured she is almost 2.5 years old now and since I was at 5500ft that there was no place and time better to give it a go so I looked around, pulled up 20? and layed the stick over.

It was over almost before it started and then I said to myself "That was nothing! Lets try that again!"

5 rolls later I was thinking that I have just expanded my FUN envelope!!!!
 
Rolls

Don't know much about Mooneys, but Bonanzas and Barrons Roll great!
I bet Mooneys roll good too!
 
Jaypratt said:
Bonanzas and Barrons Roll great!
I bet Mooneys roll good too!
Click to expand...

Don't know about Bonanza's but I recently read an NTSB accident report that was a multiple fatality crash as a result of rolling a Baron. Jay, with all due repect, before you give out unsafe recommendations/opinions you might want research what you are talking about. (Especially as a well respected member of the experimental family). Its this mentality that could ruin it for all of us. It ruined it for this pilot...and four of his passengers. If we want to continue to enjoy our hobby, we have to be responsible and we have to represent that everywhere we are in relation to aviation. If you want to talk rolls, talk about planes that are designed for it. You may be able to do a roll in a Baron, but that doesn't mean its designed for it as this irresponsible pilot discovered...unfortunately he didn't survive to learn from it.

Probable Cause
http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/dsw4il55nta5wp55ed2qyx451/K08242012120000.pdf

Factual
http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/dsw4il55nta5wp55ed2qyx451/K08242012120000.pdf
 
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I knew a guy who took a ride in a beech travelair and the driver rolled it. He was so impressed he traded a scout for the ugliest most corroded travelair available. First thing he did was roll it and break the windshield. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Jay wasn't endorsing stooopid. Like rolling an airplane full of bystanders.
 
"Jay wasn't endorsing stupid..."
Of course he was. He may not have meant to, but a few readers will take it that way. And the entire pilot community will suffer the consequences.
 
A bit of good advice.

Brantel, find a guy who is fairly proficient in aerobatics, like a Pitts driver and ask him to show you some Immelmans, loops and split esses and you'll really, really fall in love with your bird.

It'll also cause you to buy that much more avgas:)

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
Brantel, find a guy who is fairly proficient in aerobatics, like a Pitts driver and ask him to show you some Immelmans, loops and split esses and you'll really, really fall in love with your bird.

It'll also cause you to buy that much more avgas:)

Best,
Click to expand...

With my fat butt, my options are limited since I set my Aerobatic W/B limits per Van's standards. I also don't have chutes and my tipper is bolted on anyway.

I may work up the nerve to try a loop but I will leave the Immelmans and Split S's to someone else. I see the Immelman as a good place for a newbie to get into a spin and the Split S as a good way for a newbie to find the upper limit of Van's engineering.

Never had any formal Spin training so I don't want to push it.
 
Aerobatics

BobTurner said:
"Jay wasn't endorsing stupid..."
Of course he was. He may not have meant to, but a few readers will take it that way. And the entire pilot community will suffer the consequences.
Click to expand...

I guess Bob Hoover corrupted the minds of millions then.:eek:
 
Bob Hoover, Tex Johnson...I know all those stories. Those were different times in aviation. I'm not saying that you can't physically roll one of those aircraft. I am saying that according to the designers of that aircraft and the regulations of our governing body (FAA) you shouldn't roll one of those aircraft as was demonstrated by the pilot whose Baron broke up in flight with 4 passengers in it after he attempted the very maneuver we are talking about. I am saying that in todays aviation world we pilots need to live and behave to a higher standard. No one is on our side anymore...no one. We are the only ones who will keep GA alive and in order to do that we need to be responsible pilots. That is all I'm saying. We can't have a maverick attitude towards what we are doing or the FAA and our federal brethern will happily regulate it even more for us. I am not saying any of this to offend anyone...I just want to be able to enjoy the joy of flight for years to come.
 
FUN

Hey Arron
Its a mechincal problem the NUT holding the stick!Lets lighten up and have some fun walk your wheels on the water and fly under a bridge Buzz your FBO and make a few high speed passes now thats fun.
 
Well, this will get closed in about a microsecond, but i'll say it anyway: I highly recommend some aerobatic training if you haven't had any.

Also, consider an inverted (or half-inverted) oil system... You'll spend as much on oil as you learn aerobatics as you would just to install one in the first place... And you won't have to wash the belly after every flight.

To the others: You could get away with hotdogging in the days when planes were built by people who used to build fighters and bombers, and nobody on the ground was holding a video camera and ready to post the results (good or bad) on YouTube. Those days are pretty much over. In areas and at times when they're not, smart people won't brag about it online... It'll just happen quietly and nothing more will be said...
 
Ron Lee said:
If you never had formal spin training, it would be beneficial getting it.
Click to expand...

I agree with you and understand. Problem these days is even finding an instructor current in spins. Seems that most do em for their rating and then say the heck with that...
 
Bonanza Aerobatics

Before getting too bent out of shape about Bonanza's and rolls, keep in mind that there is one model that is approved for aerobatics, the F33C. Obviously this doesn't apply to non aerobatic versions or Barron's and Mooney's.

I know a pilot that has rolled Citation's numerous times and of course Clay Lacy flies aerobatics in a Lear Jet.

Skylor
 
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Awww, come on guys. Jay was kidding. Let's leave that and move to something constructive.

Brian, welcome to the fun stuff!

A few thoughts, which I hope are helpful for those who wish to explore....

Obviously it is possible to self-teach some of the basic aerobatic maneuvers. Thousands have done so. Others tried and died. I think the difference is mostly mental preparation, in advance, while still on the ground. You know the old axiom about never flying your airplane someplace your mind hasn't already gone? Buy books, study, think. Know how the maneuver is done and how it can go wrong. Have preset responses for all the things which might go wrong.

Just flying around and make a spur-of-the-moment decision to try something? Bad juju.

The chances of successful self-education improve with a more suitable airplane. The best acro trainers are probably the ones which always enter an accelerated stall before the wings come off.....they're hard to break. Likewise, slower and more draggy can be better. You must fly it smoothly with good energy management or it simply won't do the maneuver. Be aware an RV is neither of these things.

Spins are fundamental.....formerly a basic private pilot requirement. They're certainly not optional if you want to fly anything other than straight and level. Spins are probably not a good choice for self-education. Find an instructor with a qualified airplane and do them until you're confident. I'd suggest Greg Koontz, not far south of you here in Alabama. He has a strip at his house; you can fly in with your RV.

Rolls seem to be everybody's first RV acro. Returning to the "think ahead" theme, the common beginners screwup is to get upside down and panic pull into a split-S. The required preflight mental set is "I will hold the aileron in until upright, no matter what". And later, when you let somebody else do it, guard the controls no matter who they are. Seriously, the closest I ever got to dead in an RV was with an ex-USAF fighter pilot who screwed up and split out of a roll.
 
Rolling an airplane over does not cause it to come apart. Excessive g-forces and/or flutter cause them to come apart.

We don't need to be condoning or chastising people for rolling over a Wizbang 33 or a Floatalong 1. What we need to be supporting is how you get the appropriate knowledge and experience to do whatever it is you want to do, like for instance land a 172. Land an RV. Land an RV on a 1000 ft. runway. Fly into a mountain airstrip. Etc.

I know there are (forgive me for saying) 9's out there that go upside down once in a while, but are well within their structural limits. That doesn't mean that everyone should take their new 9 out and start rolling it over, but it doesn't mean it's dangerous, and it doesn't mean we should not talk about it and sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it doesn't exist. We should talk about it, make it known ('cause it is), then we can talk about how these things can be done poperly, or not at all.

To the OP: That's cool. I can hardly wait to be able to do that because I am not willing to even get close in the 172's that I am currently renting.

To Jay: I appreciated your post, and I think I took it in the right context in which you wrote it.

Tim
 
DanH said:
Awww, come on guys. Jay was kidding. Let's leave that and move to something constructive.

Brian, welcome to the fun stuff!

A few thoughts, which I hope are helpful for those who wish to explore....

Obviously it is possible to self-teach some of the basic aerobatic maneuvers. Thousands have done so. Others tried and died. I think the difference is mostly mental preparation, in advance, while still on the ground. You know the old axiom about never flying your airplane someplace your mind hasn't already gone? Buy books, study, think. Know how the maneuver is done and how it can go wrong. Have preset responses for all the things which might go wrong.

Just flying around and make a spur-of-the-moment decision to try something? Bad juju.

The chances of successful self-education improve with a more suitable airplane. The best acro trainers are probably the ones which always enter an accelerated stall before the wings come off.....they're hard to break. Likewise, slower and more draggy can be better. You must fly it smoothly with good energy management or it simply won't do the maneuver. Be aware an RV is neither of these things.

Spins are fundamental.....formerly a basic private pilot requirement. They're certainly not optional if you want to fly anything other than straight and level. Spins are probably not a good choice for self-education. Find an instructor with a qualified airplane and do them until you're confident. I'd suggest Greg Koontz, not far south of you here in Alabama. He has a strip at his house; you can fly in with your RV.

Rolls seem to be everybody's first RV acro. Returning to the "think ahead" theme, the common beginners screwup is to get upside down and panic pull into a split-S. The required preflight mental set is "I will hold the aileron in until upright, no matter what". And later, when you let somebody else do it, guard the controls no matter who they are. Seriously, the closest I ever got to dead in an RV was with an ex-USAF fighter pilot who screwed up and split out of a roll.
Click to expand...

Dan,

Thanks and I agree on all points.

I have been flying for 27 years and most of those I have been preparing for the day when I was flying an aircraft that was up to the task and I was mentally & physically ready to do a roll. Ever since the day I got my preview plans and manual I have poured over the aerobatic content in the manual, the RVAtor and on this forum learning the academic side of basic aerobatics. It has taken me almost 2.5 years to finally feel comfortable with my RV and my ability to start learning the physical aspects. I routinely practice really slow flight maneuvers, stalls of all types and steep turns and lazy 8's etc.

Please don't think for a second that my decision to do my first roll was spur of the moment. I have been practicing pitching up, neutralizing etc. etc. for many flights now. I have been just looking for the right time and place and gut feeling that I was ready to do it.

I agree that the RV is not the best airplane to learn aerobatics but it is the one that I have. The one thing that I know about the RV is how slick it is and how fast it will exceed VNE if you don't respect it and keep it loaded on the down lines. I also understand the relationship between speed and the wing removal lever between my legs. This is my #1 concern and I keep it at the top of my mind at all times.

It is too bad that spins have become such a taboo thing these days for instructors and flight schools. If I am ever able to get some spin training, I will....

Yes, I knew from all the learning that there is no way I wanted to abort a roll after I started one. I can see how easily an RV can kill you with a Split S and will avoid them at all cost.


Really though, my idea of fun basic aerobatics are loops and rolls. I do not have inverted systems nor do I want them. If I can add those two maneuvers to my FUN envelope I will be happy.

Thanks to all of those that have been there done that for sharing your thoughts and experiences and wisdom for staying alive while enjoying the extended capabilities of the RV series.
 
Haven't read all the thread... got bored after half the 2nd page.

the direction this thread has drifted is why more people "just dont post".

Congrats on the first Barrel roll, they are fun... the end;)
 
Acro

I would submit that a very experienced pilot doing aerobatics in a Bonanza or Baron or whatever is far, far safer than someone teaching themselves aerobatics in an RV.
The aileron roll is a very simple manuever. The problem some pilots have is stopping or slowing the roll at the inverted point and then split essing out. I had one student who had done this in an RV, almost hit the ground and was way beyond Vne and G limit. He then flew with me in the Pitts for ten hours.
One well known aerobatic pilot did a low level airshow in a straight 35 Bonanza. He also rolled the Baron
I knew a flight instructor who allegedly rolled every airplane he ever flew, frequently on downwind leg, pattern altitude with a student onboard.
 
While I do agree that there are many things to consider before going out and rolling your RV, like I said here, I obviously don't think everyone is going to die if they do as long as those types of things are considered.

I classify this in the same category with doing your first flight yourself, flying your new RV without any transition training, using auto engine conversions, deviating from the plans, PIC of an RV with less than X number of hours, flying into Osh, etc. etc. etc.

You can't just lump everyone into the same group because each situation is different. Risk is associated with everything we do. Understanding, minimizing and accepting the remaining risk is what's important to do.
 
acro

Teaching myself aerobatics was much more difficult for me than my first flight in a new EAB.
When I was instructing acro, the first maneuver I would teach was an aileron roll. My goal was to have the trainee complete the maneuver by themselfs without my touching the controls. My sucess rate was in the 90% range, including a few non pilots.
The aileron roll is a very simple, easy maneuver, UNTIL something goes wrong.
 
Well while we are exploring the subject...

For those of us that are just learning, what are some of the things that can go wrong other than the obvious one of failing to follow thru with the entire roll?

What are the things that a newbie should have on their mind about how to recover from the situations that typically cause those that are inexperienced to try and Split-S out? In other words, what is the low stress alternative?
 
Failing to neutralize elevator before starting roll will have you extremely nose low by the time you're inverted. Failing to pitch up enough will do similar.
 
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