Rotax Engine Warranty

[rejnovca]

The purpose of this thread is to promote a discussion and resolution of what are potentailly serious issues regarding the Rotax engine warranty for the RV-12. Additional background information can be found in the Post regarding Oil Pressure Failure RV-12. I had a chance to speak with Richard this AM as the RV-12 I am building is based at the same airport. Those of us who have experimental airplanes have usually had excellent supplier response in resolving issues. After listening to Richard's experience in trying to resolve the oil pressure sender failure the words "astounding" and "unbelievable" are not adequate. In a nut shell, there is a warranty but no one has stepped forward to say they will honor the warranty and the warranty process itself is a mystery. It is not right that after paying $25 grand for an engine that the customer is left on his own to sort out problems without prompt customer service from the engine supplier. Even simple mattters such as who should be contacted in Rotax are not adequately defined. I conclude that unless this matter is resolved that all RV-12 builders are faced with unacceptable warranty risk. Imagine the scenario if you experience problems and have to land at an airport other than your home airport.
RV-12 builders and Van's Aircraft .... what are your thoughts and what action can be taken to resolve the problem and communicate outcome?

Ron

[Geico266]

I don't see this as a warranty issue, I see this as a communication issue. There has been no communication (that I'm aware of) in the "Oil Failure Thread" with one of the 3 major service centers in the country. I believe the best course of action is for the person with the problem to contact California Power Supply, Leading Edge Airfoils, or Lockwood Aviation to determine if the warranty will will be honored. Typically, electronic parts are not covered under warranty so I would not loose any sleep if the warranty on an oil pressure sending unit is denied. While I understand a certain amount of frustration, replace the part with an aftermarket one and fly on.

I have owned several Rotax aircraft engines in several different aircraft over the past 9 years. I have flown about 800 hours behind and in front of Rotax engines. I know Rotax, and I know they will stand behind their engines, and their warranties. I have had to take them up on warranty replacements of starters, sprag clutches, and other components that were in SB a long the way. They ALWAYS work through their service centers, so IMHO Van's is out of the loop at this point in time. I also know Vans, and I'm certain they will assist us in getting to the right people if a true need arises, but they are under no obligation to enforce the warranty of a component they sold. Would you send the Garmin 496 back to Vans if it broke?

The Rotax 912 series engines will last twice as long as a Lycoming if proper maintenance is performed to factory specs, and you use the correct oil. The Rotax 912s will save enough in fuel over the life of a Lycoming engine to replace the engine free, twice. I know of Rotax S engines that have over 4,000 hours on them and they are still flying strong. The US military installs Rotax 914 engines (turbo charged 912S) in the Predator for UV. Their performance record is unquestioned, and their warranty claim record is excellent.

Ron, while I appreciate your concern, and I think it is a good idea for us to explore who would be our contacts for warranty claims, I am not going to worry about my warranty over 1 failed oil pressure sending unit.


JMHO.

[RGaines]

I did indeed talk to CPS 3 or 4 times and left two unanswered messages. The story from Lockwood is exactly the same. "The guy who knows about that isn't here but you can buy one for $400".

I have not talked to leading edge but I will first thing Monday morning.

I read warranty and parts and labor are covered "at its sole discretion". I did come across a part of the warranty that says "owner must notify an authorized Rotax distributor/dealer, in writing within 2 weeks of a condition that the owner believes is resulting from an anomaly in material or workmanship." This must be on a form from the maintenance manual titled "customer service information report". "Failure to do so will result in this limited warranty coverage being denied". That is exactly what it says.

It is interesting that people have had good experience in the past but I certainly have not. There are 250 -12's in the pipeline. Mine is just a $400 dollar part but somebody is going to have a bigger problem at some point probably. Is this the way we want it handled. I understand that Van's is not in the engine business and can't support them.

[Geico266]

R Gaines,

I feel you pain man, but give the system time to work. I think in the end, you will be pleased with the results. Give it a little time, get a new sending unit, and get back in the air. I know it can be frustrating, and you have every right to be. Remember you called Kalifornia & Florida on a Friday, no one in those states works on Fridays!

I for one am going to stock an OP sending unit so I'm not grounded.

[AllThumbs]

[comment overtaken by events and Richard's comment above ]
I know for a fact Richard talked with both CPS and Lockwood and got similar non-answers from both. I think that the problem may stem from the fact that Vans may have mass-purchased their Rotax engines direct from Austria and the Honeywell Oil Pressure sender came already mounted on the engine. I'm not sure, but that seemed to confuse the dealers. Perhaps they usually don't supply this part with the engine?

CPS told him he would have to buy the ($400) replacement sender and then submit a request for warranty coverage on it. I talked with Jeremy at CPS when I was on the ramp with VOM in hand and he was friendly and helpful in answering our technical rotax questions. Once we determined the sender was clearly at fault is when the finger pointing began.

Joe at Vans also deserves credit for helping answer questions so we could confirm the bad sender. Tech support is not the problem; getting someone to take ownership for OEM parts attached to the Rotax engine may be.

For example, sooner or later those ducati rect/regulators are going to fail. Replacements can be found at a motorcycle shop if you know where to look but will getting a warranty replacement mean calling Ducati or Rotax (CPS, etc.)? There's no clear path for the OEM parts.

The Honeywell OP sender is a fairly new item and is probably in short supply in the potted cable variant. We can't see the whole part number on the sender on the -12 as it is faded out. I'm pretty sure the one we need is almost like the MLH010BGB06E part but with the cable instead of metripak connector and that's not in stock. I suspect its a many-week lead time from honeywell's dealers.

-Neil

[vernhendershott]

It would seem from the several posts today that Mr. Gaines has done all the things he should have done, he contacted Van’s for the information he needed because he does not have a proper wiring diagram and he was helped to determine that it is a sender failure.

He contacted two out of three national distributors during normal business hours and received a cool reception at best. Perhaps this is a result of Van’s purchasing engines directly from the manufacture overseas as an airframe manufacture, which bypasses the three USA national Distributors, it is just a guess but they may not make any money from the engines sold by the factory to the aircraft manufacture. This is similar to one of us buying a new car from some discount dealer three states away and then expecting our local car dealer for that model to be happy to see us when we need warranty work.

The hard part here is that Mr. Gaines must buy a unite from the USA Distributor (if they have one) for about $ 400 and hope that he gets it back from Rotax or he can buy a $ 76 dollar unit and get flying with no hope of recovery from Rotax. In this case it is small money, but what if his engine (or yours or mine soon) had a larger problem like a failed valve, which could cost up to as much as the engine cost new to repair. Do we then have to have one of the USA Distributors do the repair and pay them and hope that Rotax agrees to pay all of it? What if we do this and they decide that they should only pay 25%?

It is just my opinion but I think Ron hit the nail on the head in his first post in this thread when he said “I read warranty and parts and labor are covered "at its sole discretion"” and “I conclude that unless this matter is resolved that all RV-12 builders are faced with unacceptable warranty risk.”

Larry, I am pleased to hear that you have had good experience with Rotax in the past, which speaks well of them. I have a hard time understanding how we did business with Van’s, they took our money and we are their customers and they are not involved? Rotax has not had any contact with most of us and would not know who we are if we called them, yeas we will explain that we now own one of the engines they sold to Van’s but that was a large wholesale sale and we have no information as to the details or conditions of that agreement as to who and how much support would be provided to the end user or by whom.

Perhaps someone from Rotax would be kind enough to address this forum with how they see the warranty system working on these engines and how and where we should seek normal technical support so that we might have the proper names, emails and phone numbers of people who do understand both who we are and that we have been sent to them by Rotax. If Rotax is not able to do this them I do not think it is to much to ask that Van’s provide us with the appropriate guidance.

Just one customer’s thoughts.

Best regards,
Vern

[n5lp]

Originally Posted by vernhendershott

...This is similar to one of us buying a new car from some discount dealer three states away and then expecting our local car dealer for that model to be happy to see us when we need warranty work...

I know this is a difficult situation, but with cars the warranty work would be done. With cars, any dealer will do the warranty work and I mean absolutely any dealer. Happy or not, I don't know, but the work will be done or the dealer will no longer be a dealer.

I do hope it is the same with Rotax engines.

[frankh]

Originally Posted by Geico266

The Rotax 912 series engines will last twice as long as a Lycoming if proper maintenance is performed to factory specs, and you use the correct oil. The Rotax 912s will save enough in fuel over the life of a Lycoming sengine to replace the engine free, twice. I know of Rotax 912s engines that have over 4,000 hours on them and they are still flying strong. The US military installs Rotax 914 engines (turbo charged 912s) in the Predator for UMV. Their performance record is unquestioned, and their warranty claim record is excellant.

JMHO.

Really?..I can't argue the life of the engine question as I have no data..but the statement about fuel is presumably only correct if one is using 100LL in said Lycoming.

If one uses mogas like the Rotax uses then I would submit that unles the Rotax has an unbelievably low BSFC number (and seeing as the carbs on the Rotax do not allow running LOP, then that CAN'T be true) then it is clear the fuel consumption between both engines on a HP produced basis is the same at best.
And if you wan't less HP on an IO360 then simply fly higher.

Either way you cut it there is no way the Rotax is more fuel eeficient than a Lyclone.

Frank

[frankh]

Having said that..the Rotax is not a bad motor in anyway, I had a small subaru in my old Zodiac and believe me I wished I had a Rotax more than once..Lets just be realistic about the abilities of the engine though..

Frank

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by vernhendershott

I have a hard time understanding how we did business with Van’s, they took our money and we are their customers and they are not involved?

Vans has sold hundreds of Lycoming engines but I don't recall the RV community demanding Vans get involved with service issues with those engines. We have always expected to be required to deal with the engine manufacturer if warranty problems arose.

How is the Rotax arrangement any different?