Cross Wind (X Wind) Landing

I landed the other day on runway 13 with winds 220@15. Tower didnt call winds on landing clearance, so (bad on me) I assumed light winds. The cross wind was masked until over the runway due to turbulence on final, so it wasnt until late that I realised winds would be a factor.

Cross controls and a wheel landing that was probably a little too fast provided me with plenty of entertainment on that landing.

15 Kts seems to be do able, though I wouldnt recommend it, using about 30-40 ft of runway width. If youre anticipating cross winds, I would recommend practicing in lighter winds with cross controlled one wheel landings.

If anyone has any info on what kind of bank is appropriate for one wheel landings, I'd love to know. What is the most cross wind you guys have successfully landed in the RV8?

Chill31 said:

...If anyone has any info on what kind of bank is appropriate for one wheel landings, I'd love to know. What is the most cross wind you guys have successfully landed in the RV8?

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Whatever bank it takes is what is appropriate.

On another thread (You can search for it), I commented that I once tried an landing with 50 mph x-winds just to see if I could do it. I didn't think it would work out but I wanted to try it. Sure enough, with full cross controls in, I was blown off course and went around and used the runway that was actually pointing into the wind.

A lot of it depends on your speed...

Chill31 said:

......If anyone has any info on what kind of bank is appropriate for one wheel landings, I'd love to know. What is the most cross wind you guys have successfully landed in the RV8?

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.....and I've had to cope with a bunch of crosswind lately, working my Air Tractor.

I use less flap in stronger crosswinds, which makes for a faster landing but also more control effectiveness. Just use whatever bank it takes, as Bill said, to stop any sideways drift.

My airport has trees along the upwind side of the runway, so I land long, next to the trees that block the wind for me

Best,

Chill31 said:

If anyone has any info on what kind of bank is appropriate for one wheel landings, I'd love to know. What is the most cross wind you guys have successfully landed in the RV8?

Click to expand...

Use as much bank as you need, as long as the wing tip doesn't hit the ground.

I've landed in about 15 kt crosswind (there is no anemometer at the airport - I estimated the wind based on the wind sock). I'm looking for a day with a bit more wind so I can open up my crosswind envelope some more. The RV-8 is probably capable of handling more crosswind than most of the RV-8 pilots, this one included.

The size and sharpness of the wind gusts may be a bigger factor than the amount of crosswind. A nice steady 20 kt of crosswind would almost certainly be much easier to handle than a 15 kt crosswind with significant changes of speed and direction in big gusts.

pierre smith said:

.....and I've had to cope with a bunch of crosswind lately, working my Air Tractor.

I use less flap in stronger crosswinds, which makes for a faster landing but also more control effectiveness. Just use whatever bank it takes, as Bill said, to stop any sideways drift.

My airport has trees along the upwind side of the runway, so I land long, next to the trees that block the wind for me

Best,

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Pierre,

This is off RV topic but 2 questions re your operation with the Air Tractor.
How much of a factor is wind in process of spraying?
Just how does the GPS work to show what has been sprayed and what hasn't?
I watched an Air Tractor at work in Minnesota on a recent trip to that part of the country, very interesting.

Cross wind landings in a light aircraft like an RV are much more difficult than with heavy equipment. I've got to hand it to guys who are with it and don't get blown off the runway. It is the gusty days that are the greatest challenge. A 10 or 15 knot gust factor is very difficult to deal with in that the airplane is near a stall one moment and very much flying the next and there's no predicting it.

Generally those kind of days are over the fun line and into a work area and I keep the hangar door closed.

Yesterday was an insidious situation, clear as could be but much thermal activity due to surface heating as another summer rush of hot air is arriving from the southeast. It was rough as a cob and landing in that hot bumpy air was a hand full. Not much fun but did sight one enemy Cessna who apparently never saw my fast moving RV. He would have been an easy kill.

Dangerous Dragnet

David-aviator said:

... Not much fun but did sight one enemy Cessna who apparently never saw my fast moving RV. He would have been an easy kill.

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Gentlemen, keep your heads on a swivel when flying into Double Delta's territory!

Visit Hemispheregps

David-aviator said:

Pierre,

This is off RV topic but 2 questions re your operation with the Air Tractor.
How much of a factor is wind in process of spraying?
Just how does the GPS work to show what has been sprayed and what hasn't?


.

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David, I have a lightbar about 8 feet in front of me on top of the cowl. When the amber lights in the center are aligned, I'm on the dead center of my 75' swath. As I near the end of the field, I press the swath-advance button on the stick and the lightbar may show "L 1690", which means my next swath is 1690' to my left (I'm flying what's known as a 'racetrack' pattern...think oval racetrack'

I pull up and turn left, watching the lightbar count go down...900, 800, 700 until it shows L20...19..18 and so on. I have one foot accuracy in guidance...pretty impressive unit..$10,000+.

During a racetrack pattern, I start on the downwind side of the field and establish an "A-B" line and the EXACT direction then shows on the right side of the lightbar...as in 270.23 degrees!! The reverse swath will be 90.23 degrees and down the center of the field and may be swath # 22. My next swath will be swath #2 and then #23 and so on and the unit lets me know when I've reached swath #21 by showing "Last" on the left side of the lightbar.

It has a memory stick and I can reprint the exact flight paths, including turns, for the customer. ...aaaand it also counts acres....to the one hundredth!!

Amazing stuff.

pierre smith said:

David, I have a lightbar about 8 feet in front of me on top of the cowl. When the amber lights in the center are aligned, I'm on the dead center of my 75' swath. As I near the end of the field, I press the swath-advance button on the stick and the lightbar may show "L 1690", which means my next swath is 1690' to my left (I'm flying what's known as a 'racetrack' pattern...think oval racetrack'

I pull up and turn left, watching the lightbar count go down...900, 800, 700 until it shows L20...19..18 and so on. I have one foot accuracy in guidance...pretty impressive unit..$10,000+.

During a racetrack pattern, I start on the downwind side of the field and establish an "A-B" line and the EXACT direction then shows on the right side of the lightbar...as in 270.23 degrees!! The reverse swath will be 90.23 degrees and down the center of the field and may be swath # 22. My next swath will be swath #2 and then #23 and so on and the unit lets me know when I've reached swath #21 by showing "Last" on the left side of the lightbar.

It has a memory stick and I can reprint the exact flight paths, including turns, for the customer. ...aaaand it also counts acres....to the one hundredth!!

Amazing stuff.

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Amazing indeed.

The guy I watched did a climbing mini procedure turn after his run. He must have been spraying adjacent to the previous run.

The owner of the company said his first GPS unit cost more than his first airplane. Sure is a high tech business.

Good info.

I was thinking more of the effects of tire roll on the rim and interference with the wheel pant...if that got snagged, I guess I'd be in the shop for a while

I have landed my RV-8 with a 30 knot gusting crosswind.

I don't recommend it, but it can be done.

Pat

Find an alternate airport if you can..

I have landed in a 15-20 knot 90 degree crosswind and wouldn't do it again.

The landing part was fine but the roll out was down right scary!! Once enough speed was scrubbed the rudder really didn't have enough authority to counter the crosswind and I almost went off the runway. With rudder pedal to the floor and braking on that wheel there isn't much more you can do.

It's that transitional moment that will bite you with a taildragger.

As for the tire flex and wheelpant. A friend of mine did a similar crosswind landing and the tire flex rubbed the fiberglass so much it almost caught fire. I guess it depends on the clearance to the wheelpant. You want minimal clearance for speed but enough for flex.

I beleive the guy who flew his RV8 around the world had a similar experiance at an island in the south pacific somewhere and it did catch fire. The fire got put out but Van's had to do a shipment to him before he could finish his trip.

If you can, find an airport better suited for the wind.

Ted

simulator training

I always thought it would be good fun to get a couple hours in one of these:

http://www.xwindsim.com/training.php

it might not be exactly how a real airplane feels but i bet it would be a big help.

Not the way most people do it, but...

FWIW, a newbie's .02

I had 90 hrs total, 5.5 hrs TD time when I started flying my 6. I'm sure the 6 is somewhat different than an 8, but should be close. I worried alot about cross winds initially, but the RV handles it well. Here are two examples I recall:
When I had about 50 hrs/175 landings in my 6, I sought out an airport with gusty crosswinds. Kemmerer, WY filled the bill. Winds were 17 gusting 24, 90 degrees to the runway. I expected to go around the first time. But all seemed well, so I went ahead and landed. Tried it several more times for the experience. It was an interesting but manageable challenge for me. But the RV didn't seem near the limit of it's ability.
Two weeks ago on a X-country, I landed in Laramie, WY. Winds 22 gusting 28, 45 degrees off runway. Landed fine.
Neither landing was a "greaser". Both were safe, with control never in doubt. In these wind conditions I land faster, no flaps, fly it on in a 3 pt so as to have a steerable tail wheel locked on the ground before the rudder loses authority. I know most others prefer wheel landing in cross wind, but that's what my instructor drilled into my head, and it works for me.
YMMV

A couple of notes about crosswinds..
First, a gusting crosswind is a booger. What really seems to mess things up is when there are surface obstructions nearby. Things like big buildings and tree lines can make the air so turbulent that it takes quick reflexes (?at least quicker than I have?) to keep her where you want her while in the flare. In my mind, I try to visualize the obstructions effects on the wind by pretending that it is a river flowing over rocks. Somehow, this makes it easier to figure out where the rotors and turbulence will be.
Second, it is really interesting to ask pilots what the winds are doing at an airport. No two can agree on what the wind speed is. I have a special appreciation for wind speeds due to my sailing background. The force that a wind presents is not proportional to its increase in speed. If the wind feels twice as strong as a 20 kt wind, in reality, it is probably closer to 30 kts than 40.
I admire the skill of those who can put her down in a good wind- I have a long way to go before I am there skill wise. For now, I get sweaty just thinking about it?

Ted RV8 said:

Snip....
With rudder pedal to the floor and braking on that wheel there isn't much more you can do.

It's that transitional moment that will bite you with a taildragger.

Ted

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You can always apply a blip of power to give the rudder some air to bite into in order to keep the nose pointing in the general direction of the runway. Do this only when the speed is reduced beyond the point at which the airplane will fly and also make sure that the stick is all the way back in order to increase the force on the tailwheel. The stick should also be pushed over to the side of the plane that the wind is coming from to stop a wing lifting.

The above all assumes a headwind. If you have landed with a quartering tailwind, then expect a ground loop.

X-wind

22-24kts. @ 40? so far is the most x-wind I've landed with so far. Was an uneventful 2 pt. landing (tail wheel & left main ) once slowed down is where it became the most work. Lots of brake & rudder to taxi straight.

RV4: Wheeled it on rwy 27 at OSH with 20-25 kts directly out of the south. Nobody was landing 27, but the tower asked if I'd "like to try it". Sure: Touched down no flap about 90mph, with the wingtip maybe a foot off the ground. As I slowed and blended in the upwind brake, I began to lose directional control and headed it into the grass on the south side of the pavement, but that was where I wanted to go anyway. So, about 20 knots would be a practical crosswind limit if you're confident enough to use everything the machine's got in terms of rudder and braking. The RV8 might be just a touch better at xwinds than the RV4, but I cannot verify this yet. And, don't try this at an aft CG either.

Danny7 said:

I always thought it would be good fun to get a couple hours in one of these:

http://www.xwindsim.com/training.php

it might not be exactly how a real airplane feels but i bet it would be a big help.

Click to expand...

Back in the early '70's, I was a flight instructor at a flight school at Lakefront airport, New Orleans. In those days, the FAA inspectors did all the flight checks for Private Pilot licenses.

One day I got a call from one of the local FAA inspectors, noting that my students all did very well in their crosswind landings, and asked me what my teaching technique was.

In keeping with the idea behind the simulator, spending as much time as possible in the crosswind configuration, I answered the question as follows.

After determining from the FAA inspector that the top of a Levee was indeed a "non-populated area", I explained that we would find a levee with a good strong crosswind, and descend to about 10-20 feet AGL. At that altitude, the wind correction angle, or the "crab" angle is very easy to see. Lesson 1 was to fly over the center of the levee noting the crab angle, then go around and fly back the other way. Stay over the levee with the ball in the center.

Lesson 2, the next day, was to introduce the cross-controlled correction needed. I would demonstrate adding rudder and aileron to point down the levee and stay over the levee, at the same time. Then let the student go for it. Obviously, at first, we were all over the place! As you would expect. But as TIME went by, the student would get very proficient at changing back and forth between crab and cross-controlled slip, all the while staying over the center of the levee.

Lesson 3, 4, and however many were required, were all over the levee, with no attempt at touching down.

Finally, we would head to the airport, and do the same drill over the runway, without touching down. When the student was comfortable, and during one of the low flights down the runway, I would ease the power off, and the student would touch down in the cross controlled configuration, and the first crosswind landing would be made.

I got lots of positive feedback on that technique.

(I also flew with quite a few guys at the airline that could have used some of that training.)

Bottom line, spend as many minutes, or even hours, flying down the runway with a crosswind, practicing your technique, without landing. If you can stay right on the centerline, and switch back and forth between crab and slip, comfortably and repeatably, you are ready for the actual touchdown.

X-wind landing

Returning from Sun-N-Fun a few years ago I was faced with a 90 degree crosswind that was gusting over 30 Knots. The required crab on final to maintain track on runway 35 was wild! I knew the wind would become chopped up as I began the flair do to the hangers just west of the runway. I was prepared to go around and land at nearby KAFW. As I entered the flair, large stick inputs were required to maintain control as the chop hit the Doll hard from the left. I set the left main down and lowered the nose, then eased the power off. As the right main touched I had nearly full left aileron in, and I was dancing on the rudder pedals. As the tailwheel settled to the runway I was using full right rudder, and some brake with plenty of chirping coming from the tires, but the Doll remained on the centerline of the runway. If the runway had been in the clear, I believe the landing would have been less exciting. I decided to limit the Doll to the same crosswind restriction that was used on the old 727..............29 Knots!