Hit Avweb, can't find any specs on the TD300 but possible candidate for the RV-10?
http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/Continental_Extends_TBOs_208528-1.html
http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/Continental_Extends_TBOs_208528-1.html
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Continental certifies diesel engine
- Thread starter Sig600
- Start date
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
...and it burns cheaper fuel which is available everywhere.
Isn't there a diesel option in the C-182 today? Or is that the "new" SMA engine, where as the Conti is the "old" SMA?
Isn't there a diesel option in the C-182 today? Or is that the "new" SMA engine, where as the Conti is the "old" SMA?
http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/skylane-jta?trk=NavSingle
I thought I read that the TD300 was 300HP, not 230. Evens so, like you already mentioned that 230hp at 12.5 is a LOT more than a 390 or 540 is making at 12.5
ColoRv
Well Known Member
I do love a diesel. Solid, dependable, economical, and power all the way to the top of the mountain. Wish I could put one in my plane...and my lawn mower, snowblower, motorcycle, dishwasher....you name it. My call sign should be Deisel.
I'm encouraged seeing them moving into aviation, though I don't think we can call them mainstream yet. Still, the thought of a deisel RV does make me smile. Biodiesel made at the hanger for a buck a gallon....sign me up
I'm encouraged seeing them moving into aviation, though I don't think we can call them mainstream yet. Still, the thought of a deisel RV does make me smile. Biodiesel made at the hanger for a buck a gallon....sign me up
detlef lili
Well Known Member
Subaru Diesel Engine
Hi Guys!
As we have seen in the past the car engines are running reliable.
The problem is the gear box.
Specially in a diesel engine. Thielert the leading diesel manufacture spend millions on Euro to fix this problems.
I believe that the diesel engine is the future engine. In Germany every second car has a diesel engine.
I'm watching the market since 10 years and thought Delta Hawk would be a great alternative but until now only promises.
There is a reliable Subaru Diesel Engine with 150HP for about $7.500 available.
A new engine! With turbo charger, exhaust, intercooler .....
http://http://boxeer.com/ee20_engine
Let's do the PRSU from a Pro like EPI,Inc and you will get a cheap reliable and fuel saving powerplant.
It makes no sense to do this by your own. The task is to complicate.
If we can find a couple of people to start this projects it would be fine.
I hope that also a lots of European builders are interested in a diesel concept.
That's my two penny.
Detlef
Hi Guys!
As we have seen in the past the car engines are running reliable.
The problem is the gear box.
Specially in a diesel engine. Thielert the leading diesel manufacture spend millions on Euro to fix this problems.
I believe that the diesel engine is the future engine. In Germany every second car has a diesel engine.
I'm watching the market since 10 years and thought Delta Hawk would be a great alternative but until now only promises.
There is a reliable Subaru Diesel Engine with 150HP for about $7.500 available.
A new engine! With turbo charger, exhaust, intercooler .....
http://http://boxeer.com/ee20_engine
Let's do the PRSU from a Pro like EPI,Inc and you will get a cheap reliable and fuel saving powerplant.
It makes no sense to do this by your own. The task is to complicate.
If we can find a couple of people to start this projects it would be fine.
I hope that also a lots of European builders are interested in a diesel concept.
That's my two penny.
Detlef
johnny stick
Well Known Member
PSRU
As Detlef said the PSRU is everything in an alternate engine. So much talk is done on the engine portion of the alternate engine debate, but in my mind the PSRU is the Achilles heel. I think if one was to find a ultra reliable PSRU, (as reliable as a Lyc) then all these alternate engine ideas would take off. It appears Continental has solved this by making a diesel without a PSRU, a true direct drive diesel. Way to go Continental.
As Detlef said the PSRU is everything in an alternate engine. So much talk is done on the engine portion of the alternate engine debate, but in my mind the PSRU is the Achilles heel. I think if one was to find a ultra reliable PSRU, (as reliable as a Lyc) then all these alternate engine ideas would take off. It appears Continental has solved this by making a diesel without a PSRU, a true direct drive diesel. Way to go Continental.
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Appearance only. Continental licensed the SMA design. SMA runs on lots of Cessnas already with questionable success. The design is actually made by the Renault F1 engine team some 10-15 years ago.
4 stroke diesel has some disadvantages, weight and torque pulses for instance. A two stroke diesel has none of these problems. Rather delta hawk than this.
Dave_Boxall
Well Known Member
WAM-120
Wilksch have around 20 of their direct-drive 2-strokes flying now. At least 7 of them in RV-9s.
Dave.
Wilksch have around 20 of their direct-drive 2-strokes flying now. At least 7 of them in RV-9s.
Dave.
detlef lili
Well Known Member
Yes Dave, I agree with you, the best diesel engine is a 2 stroke one.
But what do we have in the 150 to 180HP range?
Delta Hawk expected to sell their engine for an comparable price in 2005.
Now they offer a FWF kit for $ 70.000
It makes no sense to me. We are looking for a way to fly affordable.
On the Wilksch website is no movement since 2010.
I still believe in the future of the diesel engine.
Waiting for news.
Detlef
But what do we have in the 150 to 180HP range?
Delta Hawk expected to sell their engine for an comparable price in 2005.
Now they offer a FWF kit for $ 70.000
It makes no sense to me. We are looking for a way to fly affordable.
On the Wilksch website is no movement since 2010.
I still believe in the future of the diesel engine.
Waiting for news.
Detlef
Diesel update
Here's what I saw at Oshkosh:
Continental introduced their CD300, which is based on a Mercedes 3.0L 300 hp, but heavy. still needs development. Is flying in a Cirrus SR22 (I saw it in Germany in Feb.) They also displayed their CD230 (formerly the TD300), which is the flat 4 230 hp engine being developed from technology purchased from SMA.
Engineered Propulsion Systems (EPS) had their 4.4L flat 8 350 hp engine there, and there's one being tested in a Cirrus SR22. It flew recently in Mojave with Dick Rutan at the controls.
SMA had their new 6 Cyl 460 (350-420 hp) in their booth. It is being tested now.
Deltahawk had an SR20 there with their updated engine, flown up from Florida. Looks good, but still no definative delivery dates for production engines.
Cessna had the SMA-powered 182 JT-A there, and also unvailed the diesel 172 JT-A, powered by Continental CD155 diesel (formerly Thielert).
Piper is offering a diesel option for the Archer, a Continental CD155.
Redbird had the Redhawk Diesel 172 in their booth, also powered by a CD155.
American Champion announced that the Denali Scout will be available with an Austro 180 hp diesel.
Glasair Aviation had two diesel Sportsman aircraft there, both with Continental CD155, both flown in, one (mine) from NV, and one from the factory in Arlington. I can tell you that the diesel is very economical and pleasant to fly.
Not at Oshkosh, but Wilksch Airmotive is finishing testing on their 170 hp 4 cyl engine, which may soon be available, along with their GII 125 hp 3 cyl. Their website www.wilksch.net has been updated. it's worth a look. I've been flying my RV9 with G1 120 hp 3 cyl for almost 6 years, 500 hours with excellent results. IMO, this is the best hope for homebuilders who would like a diesel, as it is the simplest, lightest, and probably the lowest cost aerodiesel out there (hard knowing the cost, since they aren't offering it yet, but my 3 cyl was very reasonable, in line with equivalent Lyc).
That's all I can think of.
Kurt Goodfellow
RV9-WAM 120 diesel, flying since 2008, 495 hours.
Glasair Sportsman - Continental CD155 diesel, flying since June, 50 hours.
RV10 -Airframe complete, waiting for suitable diesel!
Here's what I saw at Oshkosh:
Continental introduced their CD300, which is based on a Mercedes 3.0L 300 hp, but heavy. still needs development. Is flying in a Cirrus SR22 (I saw it in Germany in Feb.) They also displayed their CD230 (formerly the TD300), which is the flat 4 230 hp engine being developed from technology purchased from SMA.
Engineered Propulsion Systems (EPS) had their 4.4L flat 8 350 hp engine there, and there's one being tested in a Cirrus SR22. It flew recently in Mojave with Dick Rutan at the controls.
SMA had their new 6 Cyl 460 (350-420 hp) in their booth. It is being tested now.
Deltahawk had an SR20 there with their updated engine, flown up from Florida. Looks good, but still no definative delivery dates for production engines.
Cessna had the SMA-powered 182 JT-A there, and also unvailed the diesel 172 JT-A, powered by Continental CD155 diesel (formerly Thielert).
Piper is offering a diesel option for the Archer, a Continental CD155.
Redbird had the Redhawk Diesel 172 in their booth, also powered by a CD155.
American Champion announced that the Denali Scout will be available with an Austro 180 hp diesel.
Glasair Aviation had two diesel Sportsman aircraft there, both with Continental CD155, both flown in, one (mine) from NV, and one from the factory in Arlington. I can tell you that the diesel is very economical and pleasant to fly.
Not at Oshkosh, but Wilksch Airmotive is finishing testing on their 170 hp 4 cyl engine, which may soon be available, along with their GII 125 hp 3 cyl. Their website www.wilksch.net has been updated. it's worth a look. I've been flying my RV9 with G1 120 hp 3 cyl for almost 6 years, 500 hours with excellent results. IMO, this is the best hope for homebuilders who would like a diesel, as it is the simplest, lightest, and probably the lowest cost aerodiesel out there (hard knowing the cost, since they aren't offering it yet, but my 3 cyl was very reasonable, in line with equivalent Lyc).
That's all I can think of.
Kurt Goodfellow
RV9-WAM 120 diesel, flying since 2008, 495 hours.
Glasair Sportsman - Continental CD155 diesel, flying since June, 50 hours.
RV10 -Airframe complete, waiting for suitable diesel!
rv7charlie
Well Known Member
Hi Kurt,
Thanks for the detailed update.
The Wilksch 4cyl really does look good on paper. I couldn't determine whether that ~350 lbs weight includes the radiator itself (it does seem to mention the oil cooler & intercooler).
I also didn't see the max altitude to maintain the 135HP rating. If it can maintain it up to 12-13k feet, it will eat a 180 HP Lyc alive.
Any idea on the answers to those questions? Has your 3cyl installation met their claimed numbers, based on your -9's actual performance?
Thanks,
Charlie
Renesis rotary RV-7 in progress
Thanks for the detailed update.
The Wilksch 4cyl really does look good on paper. I couldn't determine whether that ~350 lbs weight includes the radiator itself (it does seem to mention the oil cooler & intercooler).
I also didn't see the max altitude to maintain the 135HP rating. If it can maintain it up to 12-13k feet, it will eat a 180 HP Lyc alive.
Any idea on the answers to those questions? Has your 3cyl installation met their claimed numbers, based on your -9's actual performance?
Thanks,
Charlie
Renesis rotary RV-7 in progress
RV10inOz
Well Known Member
For the foreseeable future, and in light of a prop failure thread, the answer for any RV builder is not a recipe diesel, and my definition of foreseeable is 10+ years.
The only Diesel that even remotely interested me at OSH was the SMA C182 and even that I would fly like a two stroke ultralight??over flat open fields and long runways.
Harsh words I know, but the CMI in the C172 really failed to impress me.
YMMV
The only Diesel that even remotely interested me at OSH was the SMA C182 and even that I would fly like a two stroke ultralight??over flat open fields and long runways.
Harsh words I know, but the CMI in the C172 really failed to impress me.
YMMV
The 350 lb weight includes everything: coolers, oil, coolant, exhaust, MT 3 blade propeller, governor. I'm not sure how that compares with a complete FWF O-360, but I imagine its favorable. I know that my 120 hp Wilksch weighs less that a Lycoming-powered RV9, by at least 50 lb.
With regard to altitude performance, I'm not sure how high the new engines will maintain 100% power. My Sportsman with CMI CD155 produces 100% power up to 9500', and it starts to slowly drop off. It starts to out-perform a 180 hp Lyc at around 3000'. I don't see why the Wilksch wouldn't do as well, if not better.
My RV9 / WAM 120 performs pretty much the same as a Lyc O-235 would. this is because I have more cooling drag than I should. I've got plans to make some changes to provide better performance, but I'm holding off until I can get a Gen II engine, or perhaps even one of the 4 cyl engines. At that point, I'll redesign the cooling system using experience from my original installation and what I've learned from cooling the Sportsman / CD155. It uses a basically stock Sportsman cowling with no need for larger cooling inlets.
Kurt
Have you flown a CD155-powered C172? I haven't, but I have a friend who did and he says it's quite impressive.
I have, however, now flown my CD155-powered Sportsman over 50 hours, and I'm very impressed. I've never in my life flown anything so smooth. No vibration whatsoever. I never thought I would say this, but the FADEC is pretty sweet. Just set the power where you want it, and forget it. No mixture, prop, carb heat, priming, hot-start, cold-start, LOP, ROP, to worry about. Just start it like your car and drive it at the power setting you want. Dual FADECS, sensors, and battery back-up for redundancy. It really is well thought-out and well proven.
But you're right, most RV builders are better off sticking with traditional engines. It'll take awhile for diesels to become more understood and accepted. I just want the community to know that diesel is a very viable alternative, not just pie-in-the-sky. After all, this IS the Alternative Engine forum...
Kurt
