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  #21  
Old 07-29-2018, 05:11 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
For those who think you can call out airplanes by N-Number based on visual identification from the ground - put a plane half a mile away from you with three inch N-Numbers, and try reading at an angle - then imagine it is moving. Report back on how well that works.
Hey, there is no critiquing in brainstorming
Maybe require all to tape large last 3 digits of n-number under wing. If they do not have then they obviously did not read NOTAM and send them to their alt Airport. Already require to print up parking sign. Requiring a little more prep to save confusing could be an easy requirement.
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  #22  
Old 07-29-2018, 06:12 AM
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BCP Boys BCP Boys is offline
 
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Default There is no 1 answer

I don't think there is 1 single answer that is the right solution here. Several things went wrong and some of the suggestions here are really good suggestions. On Monday fairly early there were probably about 200 airplanes or more in the air "attempting" to circle both lakes. I witnessed a few key issues in the air and 1 issue on the ground. In the air, there was absolute free for all on who was to hold and who was to proceed from Ripon to Fiske. There were people on the Northwest side of Green lake that did a U-turn and cut clear across the lake to Ripon when the controllers stated that Ripon was once again open. The same thing happened at Rush Lake from the North side.... That one of the worse "uncontrolled" situations that involves airplanes that I have seen. Maybe they need another trailer between Green Lake and Ripon to control the flow in to Ripon. I think that's where a lot of "cutting" in line was happening. If ATC is going to have a hold, then they need to control the flow of the hold as well. Someone suggested that everyone should start with the Green Lake hold. That's not a bad idea...
Of course, one of the reasons why all this happens is what's going on the airport ... things like mass arrivals tend to mess up the flow and close one of the runways. My opinion is that Mass arrivals should happen on Rwy 9/27 and they should leave 18/36, both left and right for arrivals. When mass arrivals is in effect, they essentially shut down both L & R North/South runways, going from 3 runways down to 1. Another thing that I witnessed after landing was that they were closing Rwy 36 L&R because there were several low passes by our military. As cool that is to watch, and i never get enough of that, I have to say that it's more important to have 2 more open runways than to have our military do low passes before the show even starts.

Just some additional thoughts to noodle over...
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2018, 07:03 AM
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I almost completely agree with Amir. The main disagreement is the flybys not getting old. They got old for me a LONG time ago. When I finally flew in on Monday morning they shut he whole airport down for 15-20 minutes for a flyby that didn’t even happen. That helped cause the oversaturation on Monday morning and it took a long time to recover.

For a great watch go to Facebook and look up MZeroA.com and watch their arrival video. This was right before the close of arrivals on Sunday evening. A few random planes were making it in, while most were being sent West to try again. There was the minimum fuel and the sick passenger both in this video.

I think having a separate frequency and a controller on Green Lake and another on Rush Lake makes a lot of sense. Make everybody fly to Green Lake first, entering from the west, then spotted and sent to Ripon. During Low traffic times the Green Lake frequency could just broadcast to fly directly to Ripon and change frequency. You can fit a whole lot more people around Green Lake than you can on the railroad tracks.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2018, 07:49 AM
pa38112 pa38112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
For those who think you can call out airplanes by N-Number based on visual identification from the ground - put a plane half a mile away from you with three inch N-Numbers, and try reading at an angle - then imagine it is moving. Report back on how well that works.
My suggestion read "by n-number, if readable" It is 100% doable with 9" numbers. The rest of the suggestion implies to use the current visual description if you can't read the n-number. An.d make it a 1/4 mile if that works better. The point is you can clean up the line leading to FISK before it becomes a cluster there
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2018, 08:09 AM
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The basic Ripon arrival works fine. The problems come from "special handling" interrupting the stream, and this year, metering at Fisk.

Making the procedure more complicated won't solve anything. The result will only be more pilots not following the procedure.
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  #26  
Old 07-29-2018, 09:23 AM
JoeLofton JoeLofton is offline
 
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Bring the mass arrivals in from the north and limit them to 09-27. That would keep two runways (18L/R-36L/R) open for other traffic. They would have to give up the “show center” hoopla, but it seems a small trade off.
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  #27  
Old 07-29-2018, 09:53 AM
Paul Thomas Paul Thomas is offline
 
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According to what I've read, mass arrival are more efficient than the standard approach.
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  #28  
Old 07-29-2018, 10:10 AM
jbDC9 jbDC9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCP Boys View Post
I witnessed a few key issues in the air and 1 issue on the ground. In the air, there was absolute free for all on who was to hold and who was to proceed from Ripon to Fiske. There were people on the Northwest side of Green lake that did a U-turn and cut clear across the lake to Ripon when the controllers stated that Ripon was once again open. The same thing happened at Rush Lake from the North side.... That one of the worse "uncontrolled" situations that involves airplanes that I have seen. Maybe they need another trailer between Green Lake and Ripon to control the flow in to Ripon. I think that's where a lot of "cutting" in line was happening. If ATC is going to have a hold, then they need to control the flow of the hold as well. Someone suggested that everyone should start with the Green Lake hold. That's not a bad idea...
Yup. I missed out on the Sunday arrival fun but was right in the midst of it at 0730 Monday morning; I held for 1:45 then bailed to Wautoma. I've been really lucky during my previous 8 OSH arrivals and have never been involved in the furball until this year, and the lack of airmanship and insanity I witnessed was just astounding. As you mentioned, I noticed a bunch of "line cutting" at both Ripon and along the south line of the Green Lake hold. Much of the craziness was instigated by ATC requiring 1 mile in trail, and that just can't happen here; westbound along the N edge of Green Lake the spacing looked good, plenty of room, but, at the SW corner of the Green hold you'd have 3-4 new arrivals fill the gap that you'd worked so hard to achieve. So there you are, a gaggle of 5 headed to Ripon at 80 kts... not gonna work.

Then there were the a$$clowns who punched in RIPON on their GPS and just flew direct to it with no regard to the line formed up at Green Lake. Direct RIPON, direct FISKE, what's the big deal? Maybe they didn't know about the Green Lake traffic, or maybe they just didn't care. At one point I was at the NE corner of the Green hold turning left to head outbound again and I see a eastbound C-172 at 200' above us headed straight line to Ripon, oblivious to the Green Lake holding scrum that he just passed over... there have been some good suggestions in this thread and a few others that just wouldn't work, but my main question is, how do you fix or regulate stupidity and/or selfishness?
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  #29  
Old 07-29-2018, 10:49 AM
JoeLofton JoeLofton is offline
 
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I’m sure mass arrivals are more efficient, but during the airport shutdown for other traffic the safety risk is spiking in the scrum forming around Rush and Green Lakes.
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  #30  
Old 07-29-2018, 02:49 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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As adsb becomes more common, it seems that if the FAA cared to, they could use it to make things much better, or at least stop rewarding the bad behavior. An automated system could register your N number as soon as you come within X miles of RIPON, or wherever. You fly the approach the same way, but if holding is required, they can start releasing people from the hold in the order of their arrival, calling them out specifically by tail number. If people have been holding for an hour and some nitwit flies right in, controllers will immediately see he’s a newcomer and send him away. I’ll bet anybody with a piAware adsb receiver and a basic programming background could built that system in a day.

Yes, plenty of aircraft may not be equipped for a while longer, but they could have special arrival windows where they can all duke it out together. Call it one more incentive to equip...

Chris
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Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 07-29-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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