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Old 07-26-2018, 08:51 PM
OkieDave OkieDave is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 114

Originally Posted by roadrunner20 View Post
8. ATC does not want to hold anyone accountable. They do not want an adversarial relationship. Cutters & non-NOTAM readers go without any recourse.
May as well just advertise that the NOTAM is optional.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:17 PM
JoeLofton JoeLofton is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 145

I avoided the furball on Sat and Sun by coming up on Mon. Too late to make it before the air show, I parked at Baraboo for a few hours. Timed my departure to arrive at Ripon at 6pm only to discover that the airport wasnít taking arrivals until 6:30pm. Into the hold around Green Lake once. Inbound past Ripon and another closure. Around Rush Lake once, cut off by a new close friend taking the inside line out of the Rush hold, joggled over to let him go by, and luckily the airport opened again just before Fisk. The controllers were advising that anyone not in the two holds should go away because of the hard rule of prop stop at 8pm on the grounds. So the arrival window after the air show was about 1:15 instead of 2hrs All that to say that there are arrival issues beyond the Sat/Sun scrum.

... Shorten the air shows - who needs to watch airplanes tumbling through the sky for 4hrs? Maybe delete the Mon air show.
... Reserve one runway for arrivals after the air show (Iím assuming the delay until 6:30pm was to allow departures on both runways).
... Move the cutoff time for landing to 8:30pm, about sunset, with plenty of daylight left for safe taxi.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:04 PM
drone_pilot drone_pilot is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Hobbs, NM
Posts: 206

Not that Iím an air traffic expert but do something like have all arrivals circle Green Lake counter clockwise, maybe Rush Lake too. Place controllers at Green Lake to call out aircraft by N number to proceed to Ripon and Fisk. That way, the controllers can regulate spacing between aircraft. If airport closes, divert all aircraft between Ripon and Fisk to Rush Lake. A controller at Rush lake feeds each plane by N number back into the stream. This would be an easier thing to do once everyone has ADS-B. A software program could poll all aircraft N numbers (say on a given squawk code) and track hold times of all aircraft. Sort the hold times from greatest to least. Controllers would release aircraft to pass Ripon according to N numbers with greatest hold times.

No more red and white RV rock your wings and watching two planes at Ripon rock their wings when the Fisk controller cannot see them.

Just a preliminary thought anyway. Lots off issues to work out. I was in the madness too. Logged 4 hours on Sunday which means I held for a little over 3 hours.

RV-7A Tip Up Airworthy on 12/20/2016
Pondering what I should build next!!!
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:45 PM
BillL BillL is offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 4,936
Default For a global perspective.

I'll await report from James, but one should look on archives July 22 - 1500-1700. Note the repeated mass turn backs and surges at holding areas.

Linking liveatc at the worst times in real time may help understanding.

1st Flight 1-27-18
Phase II 8-3-18
Repairman 11-15-18
Instrument Currency 12-17-18
Shrunken Exit = ??
No Photo? => PM me.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:47 PM
pa38112 pa38112 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Clarksboro, NJ
Posts: 658

Split the VFR arrivals into two categories:
1. ADS-b: The controllers can direct these planes in by name with their own approach path.
2. Non ADS-b: Bring these guys in the same way over Rippon, but have a few controllers staged along the tracks and about 1/2 mile to the side with binoculars calling-out, by N-number if readable, planes that are not properly sequenced.

Planes with issues should be sent somewhere else. Several people called in with pseudo emergencies and interrupted the flow. "I had a blown tail wheel that I fixed, but I'm not sure if it is OK" from 15 miles out should be sent to a different airport; and maybe investigated for flying with a known deficiency...
2004 RV6A Flying
2002 RV6A Flying
1978 PA38-112

Last edited by pa38112 : 07-28-2018 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:59 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 11,853

For those who think you can call out airplanes by N-Number based on visual identification from the ground - put a plane half a mile away from you with three inch N-Numbers, and try reading at an angle - then imagine it is moving. Report back on how well that works.
Paul F. Dye
Editor in Chief - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
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Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
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Old 07-28-2018, 08:05 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,643

Realistically, the open times on Saturday and Sunday were gonna be busy anyway due to the weather, but the runways were operating at a fraction of capacity which was the real problem. That meant a LOT of people stacked up. If 200 airplanes/hour arrive at Fisk and you turn back 100 of 'em, you have 100 people holding after an hour, 200 after two hours, etc.

Intentionally or unintentionally, the folks running the arrival process bolloxed things up this year by restricting the flow to the runways. Fix that and everything will work much better.
Kyle Boatright
Atlanta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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Old 07-28-2018, 08:53 PM
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AZtailwind AZtailwind is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 442
Default Fix the flow

Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright View Post
Intentionally or unintentionally, the folks running the arrival process bolloxed things up this year by restricting the flow to the runways. Fix that and everything will work much better.
I agree,

As a long time OSH flyer since 93. The 1/2 mile separation(even with only 9/27 runway available) works well. Fix that and yep- most of the saturation problems are solved.

Brad Ransom
RV-6A 180HP-acquired
RV-4 180HP-acquired
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:12 PM
Grandy Grandy is offline
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Spearfish, SD
Posts: 66
Default Bigger picture

In years past, the show opened on a Saturday. It was moved so now it opens on Monday. It seems to me like the character of the show changed with the date change so now the first part of the week is focused on homebuilders and the last part is a big circus for the general public. The result of that is that everyone who owns or rents any sort of private aircraft, including the vendors, show up on the Saturday/Sunday prior to open and are bugging out by Wednesday morning. The camping fills up and if you come any later you win the South 40 no services land that requires a mile walk to get to a shuttle of any sort. Every incentive now is for all the flyers to come on Sunday afternoon.

I would submit that the powers that be consider reformatting the show to make it less segregated and stop the big show focus so much. Begin the show on Saturday again and make the week more balanced so there isn't such a separation of interests.

The camping availability also needs to be addressed. I've seen many prime camping spots open on Wednesday mornings that are not filled but folks are being sent to the South 40. I'm not sure why, but with all the planes flying over and the technology available, it would seem to me that it would not be that hard to know when camping spots open up. If pilots knew the good camping would be used later in the week, maybe they would not have to fight for an early arrival to avoid walking a mile to a shuttle or to get a decent shower house.

Do a little site work and fix the drainage in the camping areas. It would not take much investment to have high and dry grass taxiways to get to and from camping. Now you taxi down a low spot that is the first to fill with water. No wonder they have to shut down large camping areas when it gets wet.

Military arrivals that think they need the field closed should not be allowed on the prime arrival days. All the pilots that are just setting up camp and vendors getting displays ready are more annoyed by the noise than impressed by their tax dollars at work. Save the flybys for airshows or off times for arrivals.

Weather had a big part in this years fiasco, but ATC did no one a favor by short staffing this event and changing the spacing so much. It's a credit to all the pilots that there were no midairs and deaths in that mess. I hope that the ATC folks can understand that they need to take this a little more seriously in the future. You can't just show up with too few people with little experience and get this job done. I saw a report recently about how the Obama administration changed the focus on new hires for ATC and took away ability requirements for ATC jobs. Looks like the result is less than desirable. Sad

Last edited by Grandy : 07-28-2018 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:25 AM
Northernliving Northernliving is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 148

Originally Posted by TomVal View Post
Perhaps posting your comments here may provide the EAA board with useful input towards solving this arrival problem.

My 2 cents:

1. Establish separate arrival fixes for both runways
2. Odd numbered N-numbers to one fix, even, to the other (for alphabet registrations...last letter A to M one way, N-Z the other).
3. Still maintain fast and slow mover arrival altitude separation

Move the event to AZ in February?
Brian J.
Boston, MA
RV8 Based at ORH - Purchased
RV8 - The Dream - Under Construction
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