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Old 07-25-2018, 11:54 AM
TomVal's Avatar
TomVal TomVal is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SC & CA
Posts: 804
Default Post Your Improved OSH Arrival Ideas Here...

Perhaps posting your comments here may provide the EAA board with useful input towards solving this arrival problem.

My 2 cents:

1. Establish separate arrival fixes for both runways
2. Odd numbered N-numbers to one fix, even, to the other (for alphabet registrations...last letter A to M one way, N-Z the other).
3. Still maintain fast and slow mover arrival altitude separation

Tom Valenzia
RV8 (Sold)
RV12 Jabiru 2200 Powered
Dues contributor since 2007

Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself...Anonymous

Last edited by TomVal : 07-25-2018 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 07-25-2018, 01:25 PM
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roadrunner20 roadrunner20 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bay Pines, FL (based @ KCLW)
Posts: 1,856
Default Flying In & Out of Oshkosh session today

I'm attending a forum session at 1430 today.

Flying In & Out of Oshkosh

This is presented by the NATCA Controllers.

This will be a very ineteresting one.
See you all at Forum Stage 6
Danny "RoadRunner" Landry
Morphed RV7(formally 7A), N20DL, PnP Pilot
1095+ hours
2018 Donation Paid
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:13 PM
Flybipe Flybipe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 102
Default Better ID of aircraft for some controllers

Some controllers do better than others, but I have witnessed significant confusion because pilots fail to recognize when controllers are talking to them because controllers are calling everything a “Cherokee” or a “Cessna” or a high wing or a low wing.

Perhaps pairing a spotter with each controller who is really up on their aircraft types would help.

Perhaps emphasizing to pilots in the NOTAM that they need to be prepared to be called something other than what they are would help too.

(Perhaps just having controllers brush up on their types would help too.)

A few notables I saw:

calling a Cessna 310 a “low wing”, 310 failed to comply

calling a T-6 Texan a TBM (the turbo prop kind), T-6 failed to comply

Calling a Champ in standard yellow and orange champ scheme a “yellow cub”, Champ failed to comply

I’m not saying they should be able to tell the difference between and RV-7 and an RV-9, nor do I expect them to correctly ID every obscure homebuilt, but the basics ain’t that hard! RV, Mooney, Bonanza, Cherokee, etc.

(Seems like this year was way worse than others, almost like they brought in controllers from LaGuardia Approach control or something who only work with big iron. I arrived Saturday around 5:25 and didn’t get caught in the goat rope on Sunday at Ripon but they did shut down an entire runway for a mass Cessna arrival long before they were even close, which made no sense. Additionally, no reason to limit aircraft operations on the NORTH taxiway for 27 because of the mass Cessna arrival on 36. They made everyone shut down for 20 minutes on the taxiway because we couldn’t cross the ccorridore of 36. Someone forgot this was a fly in.)

Last edited by Flybipe : 07-27-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:31 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 11,822

How about they fine any pilot who lands without a printed copy of the NOTAM on board $100?
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
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Old 07-26-2018, 06:08 AM
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Mark Dickens Mark Dickens is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Collierville, TN (KFYE)
Posts: 1,041

The easiest thing to do would be to close the airport to VFR traffic until double VFR weather minimums are met and projected by TAF to remain so for at least two hours. You can't really police the pilot behavior effectively, but you can ensure it happens in better weather.
RV-8 #81077 Super Slow Build
Titan IOX-370, Dual P-Mags, AFP FM200A FI, Sensenich GA Prop
First Flight 11/20/2016
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:10 AM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 963

I think there should be more control on mass arrivals. Like only allowing them during a specific time on a specific day. If the weather didn’t cooperate on that day, then join the arrival like everyone else. Closing two of the three available landing runways for a mass arrival that took way to long, created an unacceptable condition. We were told they needed 1 mile, and occasionally, 2 mile spacing on the FISKE arrival. This clearly doesn’t work. The majority of the traffic was turned out south of Fiske, only to get back in line and have it happen again, with dangerous flying by frustrated pilots. The Fiske arrival flown EXACTLY like spelled out in the NOTAM works amazingly well, and will occomodate more traffic on the three runways than a mass arrival, coupled with their unspecified “trickle” arrival over Fiske. We have had one runway ops before and it wasn’t always caused by trying to accommodate a mass arrival. But this year, coupled with pent up arrival traffic caused by weather the previous two days, it created a monster on Sunday. Somebody in control at Oshkosh should have been able to predict this, and kept all runways open for normal arrivals until this huge glut of arrivals could be swallowed at the airport.

If they are going to make the “trickle” arrival a viable option during abnormal ops, then they need to have a control station upstream over RIPON. It was chaos between RIPON and FISKE on Sunday when the airport finally opened up. I was passed on the arrival north of RIPON several times while I was at 90K/1800’ - on both sides and I was over the tracks. Oh - and is there anyone that thinks asking a pilot to maintain 2 mile spacing on the preceding aircraft is a good idea? Trying to see the tail of the airplane 2 miles in front of you, and maintain that space will only work if a controller trickles you in over RIPON and then you maintain the required 90K.
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:12 AM
alcladrv alcladrv is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southeast
Posts: 467

Maybe the whole "aircraft type and color" ID system is so foreign to pilots AND controllers that it should be abolished.

A new sequencing point upstream of FISKE, just beyond RIPON, where pilots contact ATC over RIPON, ATC acknowledges type and call sign, IDs the plane with a wing rock, then instructs the plane by type and call sign to proceed to FISKE and maintain radio silence. Pilot acknowledges with a wing rock.

Controllers near RIPON would forward the call sign sequence to FISKE controllers by landline, just like what occurs in normal ATC ops where approach controllers sequence arrivals and call tower controllers to tell them who to expect on their frequency.

Over FISKE, the controller, again using type and call sign, directs plane to a specific runway which pilot acknowledges with a wing rock. By landline, FISKE controllers tell tower controllers who to expect.

Tower controller clears plane to land, again using type and call sign. Pilot again acknowledges by wing rock.

A pilot who proceeds in from FISKE without his/her call sign being used or acknowledges someone else's wing rock for his own should get ready for a little chat on the ground and prepare for some consequences.
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:14 AM
DennisRhodes DennisRhodes is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Taylorsville, Ga
Posts: 634

One thing i have learned with ads b is that you can rarely see a small plane at 1.5 miles. Maybe if youknow its there and it has a crossing path. To follow and hold spacing would be impossible.
2018 VAF dues paid
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:37 AM
yankeetango yankeetango is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chaska, MN
Posts: 9

It seems to me that the effort to make things more safe turns into a race to land fewer airplanes.

1. Guarantee aircraft camping and parking for all arrivals. Consolidate the EAA grounds and vendor space to accommodate. There is no lack of real estate.

2. Cancel pre-weekend events and mass gatherings, provide food service and basic needs to prevent get-there-itis.

3. Keep the arrivals coming on Monday and tueday... cant do that if the camping is full.

4. Dont turn away 150 airplanes after making the visual for 36 I'm the name of IFR. That decision, except for the grace of god alone, may have put more people at risk than visibility from the tower. Sending hundreds of VFR flights off into the heavens with IFR crashing down quickly, was not a safe decision. They needed an airport to land at. They had one. They were turned away. That is not safety in my mind. That was government. IFR to departing VFR would be stupid. IFR to landing VFR in a sketchy situation is hero work. ATC is lucky nobody died. They all are.

5. Special VFR requests were considered a nuisance. If IFR is descending in the area, just where will VFR go? The ATC nuisance... just what was the workload after everyone went IFR, approximately 2%? That's not safety.

6. Ripon was a mess, and the ATC from Fisk could see all the way to Ripon. For those cutting back in line, I would have sent them all back to ripon too. I drove to Ripon and Fisk and watched it. Amazing s-show. Jerks up there, glad nobody was injured from falling airplanes. Grace of god alone, not pilotage. Theres a heavy helping of dignity left between green lake and ripon and Fisk on sunday.

7. Hold. Enforce the holds. Hold at the holds. When people hold, things work. When people dont, people can die. Holds are critical.

8. Land more airplanes.

9. Keep the conversation between the ATC and FAA as transparent as possible. This is not a conversation to have behind closed doors.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:01 PM
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roadrunner20 roadrunner20 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bay Pines, FL (based @ KCLW)
Posts: 1,856

Originally Posted by roadrunner20 View Post
I'm attending a forum session at 1430 today.

Flying In & Out of Oshkosh

This is presented by the NATCA Controllers.

This will be a very ineteresting one.
See you all at Forum Stage 6
Summary update regarding this session yesterday.
1. The contollers admitted the arrivals where a mess.
2. Many times played the short staffing card
3. Did not like the possibility of having 2 arrival corridors(short staffing)
(although Fisk was the choke point)
4. Pelton is aware & not happy & demands answers after Oshkosh
5. Q&A got heated at times
6. Bonanza mass arrivals, in their opinion was safer because they got on the ground quickly & safer.
7. They got the message from all in attendance, it was very unsafe & dangerous.
8. ATC does not want to hold anyone accountable. They do not want an adversarial relationship. Cutters & non-NOTAM readers go without any recourse.

I returned to Clearwater today, but feel free to send a PM if you'd like to discuss further.
Danny "RoadRunner" Landry
Morphed RV7(formally 7A), N20DL, PnP Pilot
1095+ hours
2018 Donation Paid
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