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  #11  
Old 09-11-2016, 05:49 PM
Brent 801's Avatar
Brent 801 Brent 801 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 28
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I just ordered the IO-390 Lycoming from Vans for $31,400. Same price as the angle valve 360.
Unless you are thinking of putting a used engine in your new airplane, this seems pretty price competitive. What does the Titan 370 cost?
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  #12  
Old 09-11-2016, 06:14 PM
6ato14a 6ato14a is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: longmont, co
Posts: 53
Default 14 vs 7/9

Get some rides. Rv people love to show off their planes. I bought a 6a and love it. Love it More since I installed the almost 14 seat mod. Wouldn't be without that. I actually looked for a slider to trade for but when I talked to Allan and he didn't have issues that I hadn't already looked at I ordered his kit and did the first mod to a tip up. I have a 14 kit because I have a very tall torso and I want the headroom. it is amazing how much bigger the seating area is. I just hope it flies like my 6a. I'm sure you can find rides in 6/7/9 not too far from most anyplace. The 14 will be harder. I was disappointed in the 9 compared to my 6. To much like a 172 for me. I'm hoping it was that particular 9 but didn't put the grin on my mug.
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  #13  
Old 09-11-2016, 06:52 PM
Brent 801's Avatar
Brent 801 Brent 801 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronsno View Post
I keep coming back to the RV-14A as the plane that matches my desires, but then I look at costs to build. The Vans cost estimator results in the 14 costing over $20k more than a 7 or 9. Included in that $20k is the engine which costs $10k more. So my questions are, can you use a Lycoming 180 or the Titan I0-370? These engines cost $10k less. If you do does it make installing considerable more difficult and costly. What about FP? The description of the 14 says it comes with more components included. Does this not lower some costs? Are there other areas that bring the cost more in line with the 7 or 9?

Thanks in advance, Ron.
Ron,
I'm not sure your analysis is correct in claiming a RV-14 is 20k more expensive. I think the differential is less than 10k. The engine is about $3k more than a 180HP Lycoming. The kits are more expensive but contain many more parts that we used to by from third parties. As an example, the 14 fuselage kit includes the electric fuel pump, filter, and Andair valve. None of which come with the 7 kit. Many other parts are included which really reduces the price differential. Then if you compare the sophistication of the kit with all the advances in the ease of construction, you time is probably worth the minimal differential in cost. I know after having built an RV-8 which was a great kit but no where near as complete.

Then when you look at what happened to RV-6 prices after the RV-7 came out you can assume resale value will more than make up for upfront costs.

Just my opinion.
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  #14  
Old 09-12-2016, 08:21 AM
jswareiv jswareiv is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 473
Default 7 vs 14

Having owned and flown both, the RV-7 and the RV-14, I will give my two cents. When I bought my 7, I ended up changing out the panel, seats, etc. to what I wanted. Once I calculate what I paid for the 7, plus the changes, it is close to equal what I have in the 14. However, I ended up selling the 7 for less than my original purchase price before all those changes. Buy the plane that fits your mission. Mine is long cross country trips for two. The 14 has longer legs, is more comfortable and IMHO, more stable than the 7. Add to that, the view is 10 times better. The side rails are lower, the canopy is bigger, so the view is spectacular. You will also have more head room because the canopy on the 14 is higher than the 7.

Let's say the 7 or 9 is 90K to build and the 14 is 130K. In a few years you decide to sell it. Let's say you get 85% of what it cost you to build it, although I suspect you could get more. For the older planes you will get $76.5K and the 14 you will get $110.5K. So to own the plane, less maintenance costs, the older planes cost you 13.5K and the 14 cost you 19.5K. Are you really making the decision to buy an older kit that will be more difficult to build and take longer for $6K? I didn't build the 7, but I can vouch for the quality of the 14 plans and parts and how much easier it is to build, especially for 1st timers. I can vouch because I got the plans when I bought my 7 and my hangar mate is building an 8. There is no comparison in the plans and parts today, verse the older models. Also take into account that Van's 14 kit does include a lot more of the pieces you will have to purchase elsewhere for the older models. The difference in price between an IO-360 or IO-390 is nill with what Van's is offering for the IO-390. However, if you mission is to keep the price as low as possible, you can probably find a used IO-360.

Before anyone jumps my s*** about the 14 not costing 130K or the older not costing 90K or my 85% number, I'm sure you can build both for less or more, I just used those numbers as a guide to make a point.

Yes, Van's does make some choices for you with wiring and molex connections that you may not want, however, now that the kit is out there, if you want to pull out parts and DIY for the 14, you can.

Finally, I am planning on being at Petit Jean next month and will take you for a ride if you want to see the 14 fly. Or if you want to just sit in it to see how it feels, "if" you have clean feet! I am very proud of my plane and extremely happy I chose to build a RV-14. It might not be for everyone, but it is for me.
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  #15  
Old 09-12-2016, 11:39 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 7,637
Default Comments regarding others comments......

Yes the RV-14 was designed to be a much more integrated and comprehensive kit with a very advanced construction manual, similar to the build philosophy of the RV-12.

That does not make it more difficult to modify than any of the other kits.
It does mean that any modification may be effecting more designed in aspects of the airplane than in the other kits.
This is actually no different except that with other models, the builder was making more systems design decisions so they could integrate their modifications with those other decisions a little more easily.
The kit is definitely biased towards a beginner or less experienced builder, with the assumption that an experienced builder that wants to modify will have no trouble doing so.

Regarding "going with an IO360 requiring some careful engineering so as to ensure you can achieve full weight-carrying capacity in the baggage area"...

When saying IO-360 it requires clarification of what model specifically is being talked about.
An angle valve IO-360 (200 HP) works just fine in the RV-14 (and that is what is in the tail dragger prototype). It is just about the same weight as the IO-390. It is true that the parallel valve IO-360 (180 HP) would not be a good choice because of the lighter weight.

The fuel burn difference between different engines is still a hard rumor to kill.....
Any given RV model, if built identical other than with two different sized engines will have the same fuel flow if both are flown in the same conditions at the same speed. The bigger engine only uses more fuel if the additional power is used. The only economy gained in using a smaller engine is the potential difference in purchase price.

Van's doesn't assume that all RV-14 builders will want to build their panel with their wallet. Van's does assume that a large majority of them will because of the integrated and comprehensive kit design philosophy (and the benefits to inexperienced builders that provides) that was mentioned earlier. Blank panels are available for those that wish to do their own.

For performance comparison -
As has been mentioned previously in other threads in the forum, the RV-14 prototypes (with 200 or 210 HP angle valve engine) have been flown cross country routinely with TAS of 172 kts at 8.5 GPH. This is very comparable to the other side by side RV models with smaller sized engines.
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  #16  
Old 09-12-2016, 02:14 PM
kamikaze kamikaze is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent 801 View Post
I just ordered the IO-390 Lycoming from Vans for $31,400. Same price as the angle valve 360.
Unless you are thinking of putting a used engine in your new airplane, this seems pretty price competitive. What does the Titan 370 cost?
The IO-390 is advertised at 38 700 on Van's web site ... is it common for clients to get discounts like this? I figured the 1000$ oshkosh "combo deal" was the best I could ever hope for, but this is a big difference in price ... that's only 2-4K more than the O-320s' advertised price!
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2016, 06:39 PM
newamiga newamiga is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Barneveld, NY
Posts: 179
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I met a guy with a nice 9 this past weekend at a poker run. He made the comment a couple times that he felt like his 9 flew just like a 172. I have flown the 14, but never flown the 9. I was kind of surprised in his comments. To me the 14 did not fly at all like a 172.

Carl

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ato14a View Post
Get some rides. Rv people love to show off their planes. I bought a 6a and love it. Love it More since I installed the almost 14 seat mod. Wouldn't be without that. I actually looked for a slider to trade for but when I talked to Allan and he didn't have issues that I hadn't already looked at I ordered his kit and did the first mod to a tip up. I have a 14 kit because I have a very tall torso and I want the headroom. it is amazing how much bigger the seating area is. I just hope it flies like my 6a. I'm sure you can find rides in 6/7/9 not too far from most anyplace. The 14 will be harder. I was disappointed in the 9 compared to my 6. To much like a 172 for me. I'm hoping it was that particular 9 but didn't put the grin on my mug.
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  #18  
Old 09-12-2016, 10:05 PM
ronsno ronsno is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 9
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I got the 20k difference straight from Vans Cost Estimator. I have no experience and that's what I'm trying to decipher. If I can assume the difference is closer to $5 to $10k I'll go the 14 route. If it's truly $20k plus, I'll go the 7 or 9. I like the idea of the latest and greatest, easier to build and all that this brings.
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  #19  
Old 09-12-2016, 10:40 PM
n982sx n982sx is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 248
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The $38,700 is the price when ordering without the prop anytime of the year. With the prop they take off $1,000.

However, if you wait for the show specials at both Sun and Fun in April and Oshkosh, end of July through August, the price is heavily discounted. I planned on this and got the engine and prop last April for around the normal list price of the engine. It's like getting the prop for free.

No guarantee the discounts will always be offered, but they have been regular as clockwork as long as I've been building the 14.
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  #20  
Old 09-12-2016, 10:41 PM
czechsix's Avatar
czechsix czechsix is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Spring Hill, KS
Posts: 315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronsno View Post
I got the 20k difference straight from Vans Cost Estimator. I have no experience and that's what I'm trying to decipher. If I can assume the difference is closer to $5 to $10k I'll go the 14 route. If it's truly $20k plus, I'll go the 7 or 9. I like the idea of the latest and greatest, easier to build and all that this brings.
Ron, is it really the $20K difference that is the problem, or the total cost to build? Put another way, what is your budget and can you build a -14 within that budget? There are ways to build an RV for less that what Vans estimator says. I bought both my empennage and wing kits second hand back when I built my RV-8A and have done the same with my -14A. That saved me about $4K right there. If you look around you can probably get a mid-time IO-360 angle valve engine for half the price of a new IO-390. So knock another $15K off the estimator price. I have no doubt you can build a -14 for less than what a lot of people have in their RV-7.

If you do a good job building it you should get your money back out of the airplane either way. So...as long as you can figure out a way to afford it, build the airplane you really want.
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