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  #71  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:19 AM
Lars Lars is offline
 
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Location: Davis, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I had 5000 hours on a Walbro EFI type pump in our shop car. Still quiet and working fine when the car was sold in 2016.
120k miles over 17 years on a Ford-spec Bosch frame mounted pump on my EFI-converted ancient Ford Bronco. Still good. I don’t know who makes the pump AFP sells. No markings other than a part number. All the Walbro and Bosch pumps I’ve seen had the manufacturer’s name on them.
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  #72  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:57 AM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
120k miles over 17 years on a Ford-spec Bosch frame mounted pump on my EFI-converted ancient Ford Bronco. Still good. I don’t know who makes the pump AFP sells. No markings other than a part number. All the Walbro and Bosch pumps I’ve seen had the manufacturer’s name on them.
This it?
https://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E8248-...rtex+fuel+pump

Anyone peel off the AFP sticker & look under it?
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  #73  
Old 08-10-2018, 12:18 PM
Langt Langt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lambertville, MI
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Or maybe Airtex E2315 - a roller vane automotive pump. That pump capacity is 38 gph at 0 psi, max discharge about 120 psi, obviously controlled by the relief path. Too bad we don't have side by side tests to compare reliability of all the different pumps in aircraft service.

One thing I do know is the obvious - any pump can be damaged by adverse conditions. I have never had an auto pump fail in automotive service except once (and I typically drive my cars to about 200,000 miles plus). The one that failed was run out of gas at about 50k miles. That was an older throttle body injection car. The pump ran, but no longer could overcome vapor lock and it wouldn't start if hot (return line had a back pressure control that wouldn't open with reduced pressure). Given that the pump can be damaged by any number of things, we just have to understand them, operate correctly as best we can, and observe any degradation. Fortunately, I think damage (except maybe dirt) will mostly affect them on the ground unless you run a tank dry with a pump can't tolerate it. (that point might be worth exploring -- not sure if any publish dry run time information.)

Ted

Last edited by Langt : 08-10-2018 at 03:10 PM. Reason: minor
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  #74  
Old 08-10-2018, 05:44 PM
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digidocs digidocs is offline
 
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It's a E2315.
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  #75  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:08 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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I think AFP uses or used Airtex pumps (someone should verify that) which have a limited lifetime warranty from the manufacturer. Interestingly, they only warranty their mechanical pumps for 12 months. Vehicles are the word they use, an airplane is a vehicle technically right?

An alternative engine vendor supplied Airtex pumps with their packages and I've heard of a fair number of failures of those where they start to growl and make metal.

I've owned a bunch of pretty high mileage EFI cars and worked on many others in my repair business. Saw one Nissan pump fail at 325,000 km, one BMW at 360,000 km so those are at something over 200,000 miles. Probably over 5000 hours in both cases with usual average speeds and idling.

I've seen a bunch of ancient (early '70s) EFI D Jet Volvos in the bone yards with some really crusty pumps (externally mounted under the car). From the condition of them, they had not been changed for a very long time if ever. Two cars had 290,000 to 430,000 MILES on the odos. If the latter one was original, that's certainly over 10,000 hours. I took both pumps and used them on a test bench for years more. Still worked fine.

Bosch had some massive pre-filters on these cars which may be the secret to longevity since lots of folks never change filters.

I've sold hundreds of the Walbro pumps over about 15 years and nobody has ever reported a failure unless they were mounted incorrectly (those two failed in a few hours sucking a lot of air). Air or junk going through them will severely affect lifespan of roller vane pumps.
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Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 426.1 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
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  #76  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:21 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I think AFP uses or used Airtex pumps (someone should verify that) which have a limited lifetime warranty from the manufacturer. Interestingly, they only warranty their mechanical pumps for 12 months. Vehicles are the word they use, an airplane is a vehicle technically right?

An alternative engine vendor supplied Airtex pumps with their packages and I've heard of a fair number of failures of those where they start to growl and make metal.

I've owned a bunch of pretty high mileage EFI cars and worked on many others in my repair business. Saw one Nissan pump fail at 325,000 km, one BMW at 360,000 km so those are at something over 200,000 miles. Probably over 5000 hours in both cases with usual average speeds and idling.

I've seen a bunch of ancient (early '70s) EFI D Jet Volvos in the bone yards with some really crusty pumps (externally mounted under the car). From the condition of them, they had not been changed for a very long time if ever. Two cars had 290,000 to 430,000 MILES on the odos. If the latter one was original, that's certainly over 10,000 hours. I took both pumps and used them on a test bench for years more. Still worked fine.

Bosch had some massive pre-filters on these cars which may be the secret to longevity since lots of folks never change filters.

I've sold hundreds of the Walbro pumps over about 15 years and nobody has ever reported a failure unless they were mounted incorrectly (those two failed in a few hours sucking a lot of air). Air or junk going through them will severely affect lifespan of roller vane pumps.
I bought a used AFP setup (old style). The pump had failed and i had to replace it. It was an airtex pump.

Larry
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  #77  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:20 PM
UH1CW2 UH1CW2 is offline
 
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Location: Lenox, Michigan
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So you have an engine driven pump (Mechanical) and an electrical driven pump as a secondary boost pump. The only time the boost pump should be ON is during engine prime/starting and an emergency should the primary (Mechanical) pump fail. Keep in mind, anytime you compress a liquid it will get warm. However, your fuel injected system should be under 50 psi. Just add an indicator panel light to the secondary pump switch so you have a visual indication that the pump is ON. That should prevent you from accidently leaving it on for extended periods of time.
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  #78  
Old 08-11-2018, 04:44 PM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UH1CW2 View Post
So you have an engine driven pump (Mechanical) and an electrical driven pump as a secondary boost pump. The only time the boost pump should be ON is during engine prime/starting and an emergency should the primary (Mechanical) pump fail. Keep in mind, anytime you compress a liquid it will get warm. However, your fuel injected system should be under 50 psi. Just add an indicator panel light to the secondary pump switch so you have a visual indication that the pump is ON. That should prevent you from accidently leaving it on for extended periods of time.
Lycoming begs to differ with you:

Quote:
The conditions under which Lycoming recommends operation of the fuel boost pump are as follows:
1. Every takeoff.
2. Climb after takeoff unless Pilot’s Operating Handbook says it is not necessary.
3. When switching fuel selectors from one separate fuel tank to another, the fuel boost pump should be “on” in the new tank until the operator is assured there will be no interruption of the fuel flow.
4. Every landing approach.
5. Any time the fuel pressure is fluctuating, and the engine is affected by the fluctuation.
6. Hot weather, hot engine ground operation where fuel vapor problems cause erratic engine operation.
7. Some General Aviation aircraft require the use of the fuel boost pump during high-altitude flight. This will be spelled out in the Pilot’s Operating Handbook.
8. If the engine-mounted fuel pump fails.
If the fuel boost pump is used during ground operation, don’t fail to check the condition of the engine-mounted fuel pump before takeoff by turning the boost pump off briefly, and then back “on” for takeoff. If the engine-mounted pump has failed, it would be safer to know that on the ground rather than in the air when the fuel boost pump is turned “off.”
When in doubt, do the safest thing and use the fuel boost pump with Lycoming engines. Don’t be “stingy” with the boost pump. In most cases, they last the overhaul life of the engine, and are then exchanged or overhauled themselves. AS A REMINDER, the airframe Pilot’s Operating Handbook is the authority if boost pump information is spelled out in it.
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  #79  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:09 PM
UH1CW2 UH1CW2 is offline
 
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Location: Lenox, Michigan
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You can even add, if leaving the planet turn on the boost pump. I understand what Lycoming says, I use it as needed. The point was, its only used intermittently, not for the entire flight so don't worry about the pump being turned on. However, RV7A Flyer I understand your attention to detail and by the BOOK response. After 35 years of flying military and civilian aircraft and with over 10 years as a Military test pilot I stand correct to your post, Use the boost pump for everything LYCOMING has ever recommended. Thanks for the feedback RV7A Flyer.
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US Army 2nd/17th Air Cav 101st Airborn
A&P, Commercial & Instrument Pilot
Airplane Multi & Single Engine Land
Helicopters (UH1's, AH1's, S76, H269)
Test Pilot (Military)
Long EZ Driver but love RV's
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