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My Float won't Float!

Jetguy

Well Known Member
I smelled fuel while flying the other day and when we got back pulled the upper cowl and did a run in front of our hanger and saw fuel running out of the small clear tubing running out of the back of the right carb and going down along side of the float bowl and tucked in under the float bowl clip. See it here in this pic:

Carb2.jpg


After checking with LEAF tech support they said the carb bowl floats were not working correctly, maybe some debris was stopping up the float needle. So we cleaned out the bowl to no avail, it still leaked. After taking it apart the second time we tried adding fuel to the bowl to see if the floats floated and surprise after 25 hours of use one float did not FLOAT. See this pic and can you guess which one did not float? Oh yeah there are two floats in each bowl.

CArb.jpg


Sorry about the Quality of the pics they were taken with an old cell phone. But you get the idea. $84 plus shipping from LEAF with a possible warranty refund with the old part sent back.

John
RV12 N1212K
 
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Sunk Float

Hi John, Did they give you a reason why the float failed. Was it a manufacturing defect? Don Lewis, Jackson Ohio
 
Drowning Float!

No Don they didn't, they just said that this occasionally happens. Yes I wish it was a perfect world to.

John
RV12 N1212K
 
No Don they didn't, they just said that this occasionally happens. Yes I wish it was a perfect world to.

John
RV12 N1212K

We have gone through 6 floats in 6 months and 25 flight hours, so yes I guess you could say it occasionally happens. I might add that we have not received any warranty money or even a "we are sorry" from Rotax or the dealers.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Floats

Vern,

Two questions: could you tell anything in the air other than smell (or flames!) and has Van's given you any direction?
 
Vern,

Two questions: could you tell anything in the air other than smell (or flames!) and has Van's given you any direction?

Yes there was gas smell in the cabin, the engine ran OK in flight but would not idle well on the ground. I have stopped asking Van's about anything other than the airframe as they have no real support for the other issues.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Drip pans

Given these incidents, is there a risk of fuel spilling out of the drip pans and onto a hot exhaust? My inspector was surprised there's no tube to run off excess fuel and intends to take it up with Vans.

Cheers...Keith
 
We have gone through 6 floats in 6 months and 25 flight hours, so yes I guess you could say it occasionally happens. I might add that we have not received any warranty money or even a "we are sorry" from Rotax or the dealers.

Best regards,
Vern

Vern, there has to be another cause for the problem. The odds that all 6 floats are bad out of the box are not very good. Have you looked other causes?
 
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Drowned Float

Guys if you run across any problems with any part of a flying RV12 kit please post them. This will help others who have not run into them yet.:D Since this is a new flying design then from time to time more things will be found out about it. Posting it here will help keep the problems in a loose data base for others who follow. It will also provide some feed back to Vans through Scott.
We also smelled fuel in flight. My plane ran fine in flight and even idled fine on the ground. Fuel would drain onto the drain pan under the carb then would drop off the aft part of the pan and vaporize into the airstream going out the aft lower exit at the bottom of the cowl. This Problem if not fixed Immediately could be a fire hazard. If I would have know about other failed floats that would have made my trouble shooting easier as well as got a little more aggressive attitude on the phone with my tech support guy asking if they would notify Rotax about the problem.
As I have said before on a different thread, with so many RV 12s being built, well over 400 now. I think Vans with their Marketing Power and Large amount of sales should Negotiate with each of their vendors for a Vans only Tech support Line from each vendor of Parts specific to the 12, Rotax, Dynon, etc. This will help the vendor in gathering their own data base as well as monitoring their quality control, thus turning out a better product. Scott are you listening!

John
RV12 N1212K
 
Vern, there has to be another cause for the problem. The odds that all 6 floats are bad out of the box are not very good. Have you looked other causes?

No Larry, it is just a very poor quality part in the Bing Carb. The first one was an easy to see sunk float so we replaced both in that Carb. the other four were replaced by Lockwood when they had the aircraft trying to fix the high oil temperature issues. There only fix was to reduce power by setting the prop to a very high cruise setting so that the engine would not produce full power and thus less heat. As it was Lockwood's decision to change the last four floats I am not sure what indication they found that led them to change all four only five hours after the first two were changed.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Failed Rotax PARTS

Hello, Has anyone ever been refunded money or account credited for failed Rotax components? Does the warranty cover failed floats? What kind of set-up does Vans have with the other motors they sale? Don Lewis
 
Hey Don

Yes, I had a warranty issue. I went thru Leading Edge. They advised it might take 3 - 4 months. Took me slighlty less than 3 months to get back about $550 for me.

John Bender
Iowa
 
No Larry, it is just a very poor quality part in the Bing Carb. The first one was an easy to see sunk float so we replaced both in that Carb. the other four were replaced by Lockwood when they had the aircraft trying to fix the high oil temperature issues. There only fix was to reduce power by setting the prop to a very high cruise setting so that the engine would not produce full power and thus less heat. As it was Lockwood's decision to change the last four floats I am not sure what indication they found that led them to change all four only five hours after the first two were changed.

Best regards,
Vern

So that is actually one float with a problem. One other replaced at the same time as a precaution. The other four floats were replaced but not confirmed as having a fault?

At work we are the UK & Ireland dealers for Tecnam aircraft. We've just completed the first 100 hour check on our P2006T twin (2 x 912S) and we haven't had any issues with the engines at all on this or the other Tecnams we now maintain - and that includes removing the float chamber to check the floats and for errant flotsam and jetsam.

I'm not saying that there won't be problems, I just think accurate fault reporting may be more useful.... ;)
 
So that is actually one float with a problem. One other replaced at the same time as a precaution. The other four floats were replaced but not confirmed as having a fault?

At work we are the UK & Ireland dealers for Tecnam aircraft. We've just completed the first 100 hour check on our P2006T twin (2 x 912S) and we haven't had any issues with the engines at all on this or the other Tecnams we now maintain - and that includes removing the float chamber to check the floats and for errant flotsam and jetsam.

I'm not saying that there won't be problems, I just think accurate fault reporting may be more useful.... ;)

Yes Jerry that is one way to look at it, but from a customers point of view it is still 6 times $ 35 plus two hours of labor at $ 60 for about $ 330.00, right or wrong it is out of pocket due to poor quality parts, or worse yet a crooked dealer. I think it is very poorly made parts. Think as you like.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Rotax Warranty

Hello, Has anyone ever been refunded money or account credited for failed Rotax components? Does the warranty cover failed floats? What kind of set-up does Vans have with the other motors they sale? Don Lewis

Yes. I had a failed Ducati ignition module on mine after about 50 hours and they (Rotax) covered it completely...all $944. Van's also told me to keep them informed of the status due to their relationship with Rotax.
 
Yes Jerry that is one way to look at it, but from a customers point of view it is still 6 times $ 35 plus two hours of labor at $ 60 for about $ 330.00, right or wrong it is out of pocket due to poor quality parts, or worse yet a crooked dealer. I think it is very poorly made parts. Think as you like.

Best regards,
Vern

Vern,

You haven't mentioned whether you have used the Rotax warranty application process to get reimbursed.
Have you done that?
If so, did you get a refusal?
 
Vern,

You haven't mentioned whether you have used the Rotax warranty application process to get reimbursed.
Have you done that?
If so, did you get a refusal?

I am told that Lockwood was taking care of the second full set, regarding the paper work for the aircraft owner, this took place about two months ago and he has not received any communication. The owner was given the papers for the first event and I do not know if he sent them in as it was only $ 70 dollars at the time.

I would be pleased to check with Rotax if you know of some way to contact them since they do not have an office in the USA and the office in the Bahamas never answers their published phone.

Best regards,
Vern
 
As I have said before on a different thread, with so many RV 12s being built, well over 400 now. I think Vans with their Marketing Power and Large amount of sales should Negotiate with each of their vendors for a Vans only Tech support Line from each vendor of Parts specific to the 12, Rotax, Dynon, etc. This will help the vendor in gathering their own data base as well as monitoring their quality control, thus turning out a better product. Scott are you listening!

John
RV12 N1212K

This is a nice idea in theory John but probably not very cost effective or practical.

It's true a lot of Dynon equipment will eventually end up in RV-12's but right now 130+ or so builders have purchased an avionics and engine kit (still a small percentage of all of Dynon's and Rotax's business).
There was a time in the past when Cessna purchased the majority of all engines that Lycoming produced. Even then, their wasn't a special help line for Cessna airplane owners. Anyone in need of tech. support or to file a warranty claim also had to call directly to Lycoming. Cessna wasn't the expert on the engines they installed just like Van's isn't with the Rotax.

Not making excuses, just stating the facts. In fact...in the context of engine support...if you had called Van's 20 years ago for help with your new Lycoming engine (when Van's first started selling brand new engines), it might have been Van himself you would have talked to on the phone and he would have probably referred you to Lycoming. The tech. support staff has come a long way in 20 years and they are now very knowledgeable about Lycoming engines. In contrast to that, the Rotax is still very new to everyone.

Interesting factoid...about the third year Vans was selling new Lycoming engines ( I don't know exactly what year that was), they were the second largest (in purchase volume) customer on the planet. I don't know who was first at the time (probably Piper) but this was during the time that Cessna still had single engine aircraft production suspended.
 
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Bing floats occasionally sank on airhead beemers also

Rotax may be newer, but the Bing carbs have been around on the reliable old two wheel airhead BMW boxers for a very long time, and...... the floats sinking isn't anything new. Hasn't happened with my 1983 R80GS, though appears to have happened to plenty of riders judging by the bandwidth used on the topic.

Maybe a useful data point- possibly some troubleshooting tips buried in there somewhere.
 
Ethanol?

This may be a dumb question, but nobody has asked it so I will. Does exposure to ethanol have anything to do with the sinking floats? I know with our Bing-equipped Jabiru engines, the newer style float is black, and it's ethanol-resistant. The old style float is white, and they will deteriorate if exposed to ethanol.
 
What a Floater!

Katie, I believe all new Rotax engines have the the newer style Black float. Mine did and the Rotax 912 is approved for E10(10% ethanol) Premium unleaded.

John
RV12 N1212K
 
Bringing this thread to focus on the original posters point.

Has anyone else smelled fuel in the air at full throttle or any other time? Cause? Fix? Relative comments?
 
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Fuel leak

Larry,
The first thing that comes to mind is that the engine driven fuel pump is leaking.
Joe Gores
 
Possible fuel leak!

If the carb is leaking then run the engine with the top cowl off and watch for a leak out the vent tube on back of the carb per my previous post on this thread. If not the carb then check the fuel pump with a clean paper towel after the engine run. :confused:
 
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Another Case of Gas Smell

I smell gas!! So, I did a search and found this old post, asking for incidences of fuel smell. Mine is mostly on climb out, but I do get it occasionally at cruise. I decided that I needed to address the issue. First, a few facts:
Replaced the old style fuel pump with the new style before the first engine start, adding clear tubing to the new fuel pump drain line, as an inspection window. Also added a panel switch for the electric fuel pump. I turn the electric pump on for take offs, landings, and to circulate cool fuel into the engine compartment for hot engine starts. Also, my fuel pressure is vary stable in both single pump mode or with the electric pump running as well. The engine runs smooth in both idle and cruise.

I removed the top cowl and found a small drip of fuel at the end of each of the carb vent tubes, and some evidence of a few drips in both trays. I also see a slight bit of moisture inside the clear tube window that I installed on the pump drain line, but it looks very much like moisture condensation, rather and gasoline. I have noticed the drip on the carb vent line during oil checks, but attributed it to hot weather vapors from summer flying in Kentucky. I can't believe that everything is leaking!! Some of this must be normal, and I need to locate the culprit. I ran the electric fuel pump, without the engine running, and find no leaks, but I am not sure if the float bowls will fill without the engine pump running.

Does anyone have anything to offer as the next step in diagnosing, and fixing this issue??................Tom
 
Yes, check both floats as suggested. Get some new gaskets (to be safe).

I drained the tank and replaced the mogas. Have not had the issue since. Don't remember who suggested, but, there is a difference in winter vs. summer Mogas.
 
Thanks Marty. I'll order the float bowl gaskets in the morning. So, is the W9EAA in your signature your HAM call? Anyway, I haven't been active for awhile, but I am WD9CID. Gotta get this fuel smell thing fixed!!!

Tom
 
Thanks Dave. My guess is that the right one is the RG-13111254764 BING BOWL GASKET (BAIL TYPE) (NITRILE)
32 & 40 MIL CV CARB BMW #13111254764

Appreciate the info.............Tom
 
Thanks Marty. I'll order the float bowl gaskets in the morning. So, is the W9EAA in your signature your HAM call? Anyway, I haven't been active for awhile, but I am WD9CID. Gotta get this fuel smell thing fixed!!!

Tom

Yes. Licensed WAY BACK!!
 
Thanks Dave. My guess is that the right one is the RG-13111254764 BING BOWL GASKET (BAIL TYPE) (NITRILE)
32 & 40 MIL CV CARB BMW #13111254764

Appreciate the info.............Tom

If you do order these, can you give a report on what you think? They are just down the road in Johnson City.
 
Follow-Up

We also have been experienceing a fuel smell on take off and sometimes during flight. I posted on another thread what I was experiencing.
We have only ever ran 91 auto gas. It does have ethanol in the fuel.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=114065
We have around 50 hours on our -12 and have experienced this exact problem. In October we replaced the old style fuel pump with the new one (just as a pre-caution). About a month ago we did a takeoff and the engine went very rough right after adding take-off power and then could not replicate it again. Then a couple of weeks ago it was happening on the ground almost every time power was added. Did the "mag check" and found that it did not change anything. So we pulled the carbs and replaced all the suspect parts everyone has talked about here. We started it up and did lots of full power run ups and everything appeared to be great so we took off and flew around. I did notice the fuel pressure dropped a little when climbing, something I had not noticed before. So, over the airport (probably should have tried this on the ground first:roll eyes I pulled the fuse of the electric fuel pump. I have done this many times and typically the fuel pressure drops a few psi and then comes right up. This time it dropped to .1 psi and the engine started missing. It came back to life after I put the fuse back in and we landed. On the ground I pulled the fuse again and it did the same thing. Went to about .1psi but this time the engine kept running and didn't go rough.

We have a new mechanical pump coming and will update everyone on what we find. We may check the float adjustment as well.

Everyone may want to try this test on the ground and see if there was a bad batch of the new style fuel pumps out there.

The other thing we cannot figure out is the fuel smell on takeoff during this time. We never had it until these past few flights and can sometimes see a little fuel in the aluminum catch under the carbs. If the mechanical pump is bad, why would that cause fuel to come out of the carb. It does not look like anything has come out of the overflow tube on the mechanical pump.

I will update after the new pump is added and more checks are carried out.


I should have mentioned that I smelled fuel each time and also found fuel in the catch basin below the carb during this time.
So, here is the followup to this issue.

I installed the second "new" fuel pump and ran the engine on the ground with and without the electric fuel pump on and the plane ran great with no significant loss in fuel pressure. So I took the plane up, smelled fuel on takeoff, and once in the air saw the fuel pressure fluctuate and pulled the electric fuel pump fuse over the airport and the fuel pressure dropped to almost 0 and the engine started cutting out. Installing the fuse and the engine came to life.

I went to Oshkosh and talked to everyone I could about what could be going on. The symptoms were:
  • Rough engine when full power was added, sometimes
  • Smelling fuel on takeoff and sometimes in cruise
  • Fuel pressure would drop to almost 0 when the electric fuel pump fuse was pulled, sometimes.
The hard thing with this problem is that it was not consistent.

At Oshkosh I came away with two main thoughts. The Rotax guys said it sounds like the hose that recirculates the fuel may not have the restrictor in it. And almost everyone else thought it was the carbs.

I took EVERYTHING apart when I cam home from Oshkosh. I disassembled every fuel line from the tank to the intake manifold. I totally disassembled the carbs and looked for any piece of dust. I blew out every line. I verified the restrictor was in place on the return fuel line.
I did cut the overflow line that comes from the back side of the mechanical pump, up about 2". There were some that thought it might be the issue. I ruled it out since I could replicate the fuel pressure drop when only running on the mechanical pump on the ground. The thought was that if this line is in low pressure during flight it may cause problems with the diaphragm.

The gascolator screen was clean, I even ordered a new electric fuel pump but they both tested exactly the same so I reinstalled the old electric pump. (remember, there are only 50 hours on the plane)

After reassembling everything, I ran the plane on the ground for awhile and it ran perfect with and without the electric fuel pump on.
I decided to go fly and did not smell any fuel on takeoff and the fuel pressure with both pumps on was around 5.1-5.2 and with only the mechanical pump was around 4.7. For now I am calling it fixed but need to put a few more hours on it before I claim victory.
The problem of course is I have no idea what root cause was.

If I were to hypothesis what the problem is, I would probably point to the carbs. I know there was fuel coming out somewhere, probably the clear tube on the side of the carb. I can't imagine why a carb problem would cause the fuel pressure to drop to almost 0 psi when the electric fuel pump was turned off though.

Hopefully everything continues to run good. I will keep you all updated if I learn any more.
 
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I decided to go fly and did not smell any fuel on takeoff and the fuel pressure with both pumps on was around 5.1-5.2 and with only the mechanical pump was around 4.7. For now I am calling it fixed but need to put a few more hours on it before I claim victory.

Scott,

I am at 54 hours and am experiencing fuel pressure fluctuations since day one. I do not have issues with gas smell though, only pressure drops.
I have the new style fuel pump and it was installed at Van's before I received the engine. I installed a switch for the electric fuel pump, so I can turn it off at any time and I usually cruise with it being off.
What I found is that with a full tank I get the same pressure readings that you mentioned. During the cruise when the tank level gets to around 10 gallons I notice that the pressure will have dropped to around 3.4psi with the electric pump off. At 8 gallons it might drop to 2.1, not always but most of the time. Turning the pump on at that level will bring the pressure back to 3.4-3.5 where it stays for another two gallons.
I was not yet brave enough to see if I could actually get to 30 minute reserve without the pressure going to 0.
I replaced the electric pump, cleaned the system, found the gascolator screen completely clean and did a successful 1 gallon drainage check with the tank per PAP. No idea what this issue is but I'd love to find it and fix it. It's really the kind of thing that gets my hands sweaty when flying over mountainous areas.
 
At 8 gallons it might drop to 2.1, not always but most of the time. Turning the pump on at that level will bring the pressure back to 3.4-3.5 where it stays for another two gallons.

That is interesting data. I did my testing with 9-10 gallons of fuel in the tank. I will go do some flying this week with full tanks and see what I can measure.

Another note, I had a person ask about the fuel vent and could that be the problem. The hole in the fuel vent was one of the first things I thought about. I checked it and everything was fine. The first 40 hours were just fine with the same fuel cap with the hole in it. We do plan on installing the reinforcement and fuel vent in a couple of months during the annual.
 
If you do order these, can you give a report on what you think? They are just down the road in Johnson City.

Dave, I changed my mind about the RG gaskets, and ordered a full dual carb "O"ring and gasket set from Lockwood. Since I am an R1150R owner, I first went to the BMW motorcycle site and found that they are still using cork, but they were only $3 each. the RGs are $8 a set. When I talked with Lockwood, and found out the new gaskets are made of Nitrile, a synthetic rubber compound, I decided to go with this full kit for my first order. This kit was $49, but I will try to keep the kit complete by replacing anything that I use. Anyway, it seemed to make sense to me. You know how it is, you have a situation that warrants pulling a carb bowl, but you are reluctant to, just because you don't have a spare gasket. No thanks, I've been there............Tom
 
I have had 3 RV12's with fuel smells.

1. Sinking float and fuel puked out the carb vent because the level in the bowl couldn't be stabilized.
2. 2x Leaking bowl gasket


Be careful of the rubber bowl gasket. It's okay on the ELSA, but is an unauthorized after market part for the SLSA. Rotax does not approve of them and they haven't been around long enough and in use enough to have any real track record.

I'm not a fan of the cork gasket, but the fiber gasket does well and is a Bing part.

I have already found one company selling after market rubber air intake flanges that the carb mounts into to be inferior and not by a small margin. Some of these thing make look alike, but not be up to the task. It is certainly a buyer beware.
 
Carb problems-maintenance-adjustments

Makes me want to seriously consider a 912 si Sport. Wish Van's would at least offer this option for the e-lsa's/s-lsa's:rolleyes:
 
Makes me want to seriously consider a 912 si Sport. Wish Van's would at least offer this option for the e-lsa's/s-lsa's:rolleyes:

I am not familiar with the injected version at all so I could not comment on the maintenance or reliability. I did look at one at Oshkosh and it definitely looked much more complicated. It will be awhile before it proves itself out.
I had a great 1.5 hr flight over Bear Lake in northern Utah and had a blast. I will admit that it was a little frustrating the past few months but it really familiarized me with the carbs and I learned a lot about them.
I am not too concerned going forward.
It is a great plane and engine.
 
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Reason why 912is is not coming anytime soon!

The 912is requires much reengineering.
Cowl size different.
Air inlet for throttle body in way of current oil tank location.
Larger oil cooler radiator, cowl redo!
Return fuel back to tank 122 liters per hour. Think Viking.
Different electrical system setup.
Plus about 4 gs increase in cost.
13 lbs heavier

However,
Less fuel burn
More torque equals more speed, rumor only
No more sensor problems
No carbs
Computer interface for trouble shooting
One less air filter

I would estimate about 3 to 4 years away.;)
 
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