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Short field operations

Kiwi

Active Member
Hi there,

I am interested in hearing of the experiences of owners who operate their RV-12?s from short airstrips.

I am interested in building an RV-12, but I am concerned about the low drag of the airframe even with the flaperons extended which results in a flat approach and a delay in landing after closing the throttle (float). I simply won't be operating from a large sealed runway.

I am also concerned about the robustness of the nose gear when getting on the brakes as soon as you?re on the ground ? the POH even says to keep the nose up as long as possible.

Similarly I?m concerned about the undercarriage coping with undulations and changes in slope.

I am not talking about bush ops, rocks or potholes, just operating from a short grass strip.

On a different but related topic, is there anyone that has equipped their RV-12 with 6 inch wheels to cope better with surfaces rougher than asphalt and provide a little more prop clearance.

Thanks in advance,
Andrew.
 
I operate my RV-12 solo only from a 1400' grass strip, 800' elevation. There are no potholes in my runway, but it is not exactly smooth either. So far there have been no problems with the nose gear. I consider my runway length the bare minimum.
The float can be minimized by adjusting the throttle linkage so that idle RPM is at the minimum allowed. I am not saying to operate the engine at minimum RPM, just have that capability when on the ground. When on final approach, the relative wind will increase the minimum RPM.
If your runway is as short as mine, you would be better off with an RV-9 because it has better performance according to Van's specifications. Or consider a Zenith Cruiser or Zenith 750 or Highlander or similar.
Joe Gores
 
Hi Andrew,

I have an RV 12 and are based at Ardmore so am happy to show you what it is like landing. I have flown it to a fair few grass strips around the country in the last ten months. I have just got back from Rotorua this afternoon with my wife. We landed on the grass there but that is 705m so a bit longer than 1600 feet. Ardmores grass strip is 518m and wet at the moment but it is in use. I use that for touch and goes for training. That's at sea level. I am trying to think of the roughest strip I have landed in. I went to the Brass Monkey fly in at Nelson Lakes a few weeks back. That's grass but quite long. We flew from there to Murchison. That was a bog hole. I watched a 172 that came with us land and the mud exploded over them. I took the wheel pants of when I got home and thought I would leave of for the next few months. 2.7kg of mud inside.

I think Martinborough was just a cow paddock. In fact the cows were blocking half the runway so 749m total so was okay with the obstruction with about half that but not a smooth field.

Send us a private message and I can show you the plane. The other two in the area are based at Whitianga I go there a lot but that is a long grass field.

Cheers
Julian 120316
 
How short? I operate out of a 1260' "grass-is-coming-in" strip at 1200' elevation in Arkansas. On a hot day I operate solo-only as a conservative measure. The takeoff is the concern, not the landing. Heavy braking is not required. Use half flaps for takeoff. Install the $12 AOA mod, it is VERY useful for short field landings (audible, eyes-out, not looking at the display. Keep the AOA beeping frequency right where you want it!)

I originally kept the plane at an airport while the runway/hangar was in progress. I marked off 1200 feet and did a lot of practice using only that portion. If I had a generous 1400 feet like Joe G. I would feel better about gross weight operation! Adding the last 100 pounds of weight into a -12 seems to have a disproportionate effect on takeoff performance.

You DO want to adjust your idle speed so it down to about 1450 or so. You don't run it there but you want it to be full off for the landing. I have gone around twice, be ready to do that if things aren't perfect. Practice your slow flight.

I slightly adjusted my prop to favor climb. Cost me a couple of knots at the top end. I took off the wheel pants also. I can still cruise at about 115kt easy.

You WILL LEARN a lot about slips if you want to do a steep approach in an RV-12 and it slips really nice, full flaps, stick forward a bit. Dragging it in with power and cutting the power will let you put it down right on the end, if you are comfortable with that method.

The nose gear design is different than the other RVs you read about (search for anti-splat). There have been no fold-under reports. I don't know of anyone installing bigger wheels/tires. You would need a different nose wheel fork to do that. You should consider air-stop tubes.

Video (public link) of my first landing on the strip. The cell tower you see is actually 3 miles from the end of the strip in a direct line:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=601855356501033&l=443231637449767301

Video (public link) of the next first-takeoff and second landing.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=631047670248468&l=3727324411869608154

They are better since then!
 
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This might not be an exact comparison, but I was just in Guadalajara, Mexico at a strip that is 600m long and 5,000msl. I flew a 12 at gross weight in and out of there. It is paved, but rough pavement. It used more runway on takeoff than landing, but it was off in probably 1,200 feet. Density altitude there is usually 6,500-7,000 in the afternoon. There are several -12's based there and more under construction. It handles that fine. It's not for a lazy pilot, but it is very doable.
 
Thanks guys for the response.

How short? Really, that's what I wanted to find out.

However, what I have in mind is this: There is a strip close to my home that in another time I used to use a lot with a Super Cub. It is one way and has a gentle slope for the first 150 yards, then steepens considerably before flattening out for a turn around area; total length 220 yards. In a Super Cub unless landing in a tailwind I would be stopped at about the 100 yard mark with little or no braking. While it's not imperative that the aircraft is capable of operating from here, because it is close to home I have wondered about utilising the removable wings feature of the RV12 and operating from there. In any event, because this strip is familiar to me, it is a sort of a yardstick.

The other thing that is relevant is there is a Tecnam Sierra based on that strip now. I don't know anything about Tecnam Sierra's but according to Wikipedia the wing area is within a square foot or two of that of the RV12 and they are about the same weight and powered by the same engine. If a Tecnam Sierra can hack this strip, why couldn't an RV12?

Julian, thanks for the offer, I will be in touch.

Andrew.
 
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I would not land my RV-12 on a 660 foot strip unless there were no obstructions at either end and there was a headwind. Maybe the pilot of the Tecnam Sierra is highly skilled and only goes flying when the winds are favorable. I recommend an airplane designed for short field operation, not an RV-12.
Joe Gores
 
Short field operations depend a lot on the pilot. I have 1500'.
Most RVs have no problem.
I have had to "un-invite" a couple of Cherokee pilots.
I have one fellow who flies a 90 hp Cessna 140 in, but he really know his airplane.
 
My grass strip is 1400Ft elevation is 1470 It is unobstructed on both ends. Been flying my 12 off that since 2009 (600 hours). It was originally 1000 ft. that was OK if you stayed with solo flight on good days. I later extended it to 1400 for gross operation and some added safety for those density altitude days. 1400 has worked very well. Most days I only use 1/2 of the runway but some days I need more.


Brad Stiefvater
124BJ
 
I'm based at a 1700' grass strip that has a 300' additional overrun. The elevation is 810' and is one way in and out. However, there's a 50' rise in the landing direction and the overrun rises another 30'. I always have to add power to get to the end (1700') where my hangar is. Because of trees on the approach, I generally need to slip it in.

In your case, it would probably depend on the wind, surface drag and the actual elevation difference. The RV-12 doesn't have much energy due to it's light weight and it slows quickly.
 
I think spending some gas money to drive to a longer runway might be a good investment. I never like scenarios with little or no margin anticipated. Not saying you can't operate off short fields - just saying is the risk worth it? I know I don't do it enough to call myself proficient at short field technique.
 
How short? I operate out of a 1260' "grass-is-coming-in" strip at 1200' elevation in Arkansas. On a hot day I operate solo-only as a conservative measure. The takeoff is the concern, not the landing. Heavy braking is not required. Use half flaps for takeoff. Install the $12 AOA mod, it is VERY useful for short field landings (audible, eyes-out, not looking at the display. Keep the AOA beeping frequency right where you want it!)

I originally kept the plane at an airport while the runway/hangar was in progress. I marked off 1200 feet and did a lot of practice using only that portion. If I had a generous 1400 feet like Joe G. I would feel better about gross weight operation! Adding the last 100 pounds of weight into a -12 seems to have a disproportionate effect on takeoff performance.

You DO want to adjust your idle speed so it down to about 1450 or so. You don't run it there but you want it to be full off for the landing. I have gone around twice, be ready to do that if things aren't perfect. Practice your slow flight.

I slightly adjusted my prop to favor climb. Cost me a couple of knots at the top end. I took off the wheel pants also. I can still cruise at about 115kt easy.

You WILL LEARN a lot about slips if you want to do a steep approach in an RV-12 and it slips really nice, full flaps, stick forward a bit. Dragging it in with power and cutting the power will let you put it down right on the end, if you are comfortable with that method.

The nose gear design is different than the other RVs you read about (search for anti-splat). There have been no fold-under reports. I don't know of anyone installing bigger wheels/tires. You would need a different nose wheel fork to do that. You should consider air-stop tubes.

Video (public link) of my first landing on the strip. The cell tower you see is actually 3 miles from the end of the strip in a direct line:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=601855356501033&l=443231637449767301

Video (public link) of the next first-takeoff and second landing.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=631047670248468&l=3727324411869608154

They are better since then!
Bill
What are air stop tires?
What is the $12 AOA?

I'm a Neubie with an SLSA

Thankyou
Tim
 
Air stop is a TUBE for the tire that resists puncture better than ordinary tubes.

AOA can be added to the Skyview for about $12 in parts by following the instructions in this thread. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040
Start with post #14, but read on to where the inflation needle can be replaced with a rivet.

I know you are SLSA. Maybe it is worth jumping through some paperwork hoops with Vans to get this as an approved mod. But consider:

The mod consists of:
1. Drill a new rivet hole.
2. Put in a rivet.
Now, so far have you done anything that takes your plane out of the SLSA category? no, you repaired a small hole in an acceptable way.
3. Connect some 1/8 inch tubing to the back side of the rivet (like on the static port rivets.)
4. Let it lay in the wing rib lightening holes and run it all the way back to the ADAHRS and connect it. The weight will be about 3 ounces. Put a plastic quick-disconnect at the wing root per the parts list. After 20 years or so the tubing might wear out since you didn't fish it through those snap bushings in the wings. Secure along the way with some cable ties.

Again, has the aircraft been rendered unairworthy by having some 1/8 " tubing laying in it?

5. Tell the Skyview you now have an AOA (it has software already built in for that) and run through the inflight configuration.

Kinda seems made-to-order to assist the FAA in their desire that more aircraft have AOAs!

BTW I cleaned a mud-dauber nest out of a flaperon that weighed more than this mod. Added metal tape covering the openings in the ends of the flaperons and aft spar holes of the wing (With small holes for air equalization just to be sure...) Another violation if you are an SLSA I guess... Note they can still get in through the tail cone...

Now, watch the responses about how doing this on an SLSA is illegal, immoral, fattening, etc...

Question - when you get an SLSA do you get a full set of plans with it? That would be a great resource.
 
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