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  #1  
Old 11-08-2018, 07:38 AM
bomber_JB bomber_JB is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Evergreen CO
Posts: 18
Default Door Safety latch and warning lights

Unsecured doors are a very big deal. I'm completing my wiring diagram and panel layout and need to decide on Door ajar warning lights or not.

I discussed with Van's and discovered that the finish kit comes with a cabin door safety latch. I'll certainly install that. Optionally I can also purchase 4 micro switches (Es-00306) that are part of the RV-14 (Drawing 38-32) and install one on each of the locking pins in the RV-10 doors. The micro switches would be wired to indicate a locking pin was not fully engaged and light up red LEDs on the panel.

Question is: Just how much redundency does one need to ensure the doors are secure?

What have others done?

Jerry
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2018, 08:51 AM
jacoby jacoby is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: WNC
Posts: 32
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I'm interested what others say as well.

I've been in a 10 that has 5mm red LED warnings lights dead center in the dash. He's also almost lost a door but managed to grab it just as it opened during climb out. It was closed and partially latched.

He said that the door is not closable until you slow way down (something like under 80 or 90 knots) and it was all he could do to keep the door down until it could be closed. He happened to have another pilot in the passenger seat that could manage the plane while he fought the door.

I don't really know what the solution is here beyond having it in the checklist and seeing if your EFIS has a way to integrate a warning. The LEDs don't really work that great since they're dark while you board and if you do everything right they stay dark. And when they illuminate they aren't very bright or noticeable. Putting them dead center may make it worse since there isn't much there with a digital dash to look at.
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2018, 08:56 AM
TShort TShort is online now
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Indianapolis, IN (KUMP)
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I connected mine to discrete inputs in the G3X
It creates a warning on the screen for each door.

Part of my pre takeoff check is to manually check both doors then verify no alerts on the EFIS.

I agree the red lights are not optimal. Had them in the old panel, hard to see under certain lighting.

Also, I ALWAYS close the passenger door myself, from the outside. Doesn’t matter who’s flying with me.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2018, 08:56 AM
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Bill Boyd Bill Boyd is offline
 
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Location: Landing field "12VA"
Posts: 1,147
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Everyone will have their own opinion on this, but I'm (not yet flying and) in the camp of "PlaneAround latch system: problem solved, problem staying solved."
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Hop-Along Aerodrome (12VA)
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2018, 08:59 AM
MConner MConner is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Snead Island, Florida
Posts: 111
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Jerry,
I have spent my career operating aircraft they have doors I cannot see. They need a light to tell me if they are not closed. With a door that is two feet from you, I fail to see the value of a warning light unless you plan to have a takeoff configuration warning system programmed into your EFIS. Just look at the door.

I added the cam in the center of the door to reduce the bending in the middle of the door at higher speeds. I have a lot of pin penetration into the airframe and it would be almost impossible for the handle to be latched and have a pin not fully inserted.

I did not build my -10 but appreciate that the builder kept it simple. I can see the flaps, no need for an indicator. If I have a heavy wing, I burn out of that tank, no trim needed. In climb I add 2# to the right rudder, in descent, the left. No need for rudder trim for the few minutes it takes.

It is all personal preference, YMMV.
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  #6  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:23 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 14,321
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I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.

What I did was to use their switch and magnet setup, but I used green LED lights to show the doors closed, and a momentary push button to energize the circuit. No relays. Part of my check lists was to push the button, and check for two green. Both pre engine start, and run up check lists.

I feel that an active action by the pilot to check something is is working, is better than waiting for a passive alarm to show there is a problem.

I suppose if you are sufficiently concerned about redundancy, you could have both systems......
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Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."

Last edited by Mike S : 11-08-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:26 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.

What I did was to use their switch and magnet setup, but I used green LED lights to show the doors closed, and a momentary push button to energize the circuit. No relays. Part of my check lists was to push the button, and check for two green. Both pre engine start, and run up check lists.

I feel that an active action by the pilot to check something is is working, is better than waiting for a passive alarm to show there is a problem.

I suppose if you are sufficiently concerned about redundancy, you could have both systems......
I'm a bit confused by the logic for the pre-flight actions mentioned.

If you have simple LED indicators that are connected to NC contacts on physical micro switches that show red when the doors are open - then you have a default 'lamp test' every time you get in the plane.

Close the doors and the red LEDs go out. Pretty much as simple as it can be.

PS - the above in conjunction with the Plane Around latch.
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Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
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Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2018, 11:53 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
I'm a bit confused by the logic for the pre-flight actions mentioned.
Why do you use a check list in the first place???

Is it not to make sure you have checked things, and assured that they are working correctly before you take an action------Start Engine list, Takeoff list, Landing list etc.

We could just forget the check lists, and wait for the engine to get quiet or other things to go wrong and activate a warning light

Besides, I just simply do not like using power continuously for the purpose of turning a light off.

Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
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Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."

Last edited by Mike S : 11-08-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:00 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 3,274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber_JB View Post
Unsecured doors are a very big deal. I'm completing my wiring diagram and panel layout and need to decide on Door ajar warning lights or not.

I discussed with Van's and discovered that the finish kit comes with a cabin door safety latch. I'll certainly install that. Optionally I can also purchase 4 micro switches (Es-00306) that are part of the RV-14 (Drawing 38-32) and install one on each of the locking pins in the RV-10 doors. The micro switches would be wired to indicate a locking pin was not fully engaged and light up red LEDs on the panel.

Question is: Just how much redundency does one need to ensure the doors are secure?

What have others done?

Jerry
Both the center safety latch and door warning systems are included with the finishing kit and cannot be deleted - No need to order parts.

I have center latch like the planearound, but will include sensors for the rear door pins and tie that to either an LED (no relay) on the panel or to the G3X. I can easily see if the front is latched and one is adequate in case of an error where I forget to latch the door. I think this is the bigger risk with a center latch and not as much the risk of the rear pin not finding it's hole.

Larry
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RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
RV-10 in progress

Last edited by lr172 : 11-08-2018 at 12:03 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:04 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 7,792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.
As has been mentioned in the past, the system was specifically designed the way it is, to help mitigate a false safe indication caused by a variety of failure types within the system (broken wire, shorted wire, etc.)
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