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Absolute arrogance

Let the standoff's begin!

If this comes to pass, its the end of GA as far as folks like us are concered....

"The FAA currently lists 5,000 pilots with a BMI of 40 or greater and more than 120,000 who qualify as obese with a BMI of 30 or higher."

How many of these are practicing commercial pilots? My guess very few. In 2012 the FAA records say there were only 188,001 private pilots active. 120/188 = a bunch of us! They won't stop at a BMI of 30 if they follow thru with their threat to find every pilot with undiagnosed and treated OSA.

This is just the beginning of a whole array of new ways the FAA can and will destroy the recreational private pilot participation.
 
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Direct quote from the article.

"While he acknowledged that there have been no fatal GA accidents attributed to sleep apnea, Tilton said the FAA is pursuing this policy"

I guess their point of view is ----- if there is not a problem, lets create one.
 
A couple of thoughts -

I think it's going to be hard to derail the general proposal. (The recent NY train derailment is likely to be a prime example - the pressure to proceed with this isn't with the aviation community, but more broadly transportation. So, as I think it's unfolding, the FAA administrator is pretty much being told by the DOT how this is going to be.)

On the other hand, there is the GA caucus - the more draconian and unreasonable the proposal, the more likely it should seem that there should be some relief from the CL III medical requirements for non-commercial operations.

I doubt I'm in the mainstream on this one - putting the flame suit on...wait, I've got to shed 3 to get under 30.

Dan
 
Mike S said:
Direct quote from the article.

"While he acknowledged that there have been no fatal GA accidents attributed to sleep apnea, Tilton said the FAA is pursuing this policy"

I guess their point of view is ----- if there is not a problem, lets create one.
Click to expand...

Usually that would be backed up by the AME's who would get more work...:)

That is not the case this time.

The Civil Aviation Medical Association, which is composed of aviation medical examiners, has also objected to the new policy, saying that the FAA is not tasked to provide long-term prognoses, there is no scientific evidence that undiagnosed obesity or OSA has compromised aviation safety, and that a sudden increase in the demand for special issuance medicals would add to existing processing delays.
 
It's not only the BMI of 40, it is also the 17 inch neck. Are they goting to tell the entire NFL they have sleep apnea? makes no sense. :mad:
 
bmi

If we don't stand up for our rights they will with out a doubt take every one of them. Case in point look at the way we have to cross the border even on the way out of the country good grief you have to tell tem were you are going to be after you get to the other country for 24 hrs and on return when you will cross the line has to be with in one hour or you can be fined 10k are you kidding a airline pilot cant tell you were he will be in an hour. I use to go to the Bahamas a lot but no more they killed the joy don't let them take our private rights.
Bob:mad:
 
bret said:
It's not only the BMI of 40, it is also the 17 inch neck. Are they goting to tell the entire NFL they have sleep apnea? makes no sense. :mad:
Click to expand...

I'm 5'7, 155 lbs with a BMI of 24 or 25. I have a 17" neck.

Amazing that the neck criteria is that restrictive.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
Who do they think they are! Unbelievable.
Click to expand...
They're the FAA. Who did you think they were?

In all honesty, this is entirely consistent with how the FAA treats medical issues - if there could be a problem, there is a problem until you prove otherwise to their satisfaction. This is very different in how the FAA treats other risks to flight and is really inconsistent with a real risk assessment of PP flying.

TODR
 
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I'm 5'7, 155 lbs with a BMI of 24 or 25. I have a 17" neck...Amazing that the neck criteria is that restrictive.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't think the neck size of 17" triggers the test as it was described in the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical Bulletin (Vol. 51, No. 4) [emphasis is mine]:

"...OSA is almost universal in obese individuals who have a Body Mass Index (BMI) over 40 and a neck circumference of 17 inches
or more, but up to 30% of individuals with a BMI less than 30 have OSA...."

They did not use the word "or" and in this passage, there is nothing about the required testing.

Where the required testing does show up is three paragraphs later where they say

"... The next step will be to require AMEs to calculate the BMI for every examinee.... Airman applicants with a BMI of 40 or more [note, nothing about neck size here] will have to be evaluated by a physician who is a board certified sleep specialist, and anyone who is diagnosed with OSA will have to be treated before they can be medically certificated. Once we have appropriately dealt with every airman examinee who has a BMI of 40 or greater, we will gradually expand the testing pool by going to lower BMI measurements until we have identified and assured treatment for every airman with OSA...."

What is fascinating is they are after the OSA, but when they make the pilot population a bunch of lab rats (ie., they don't know the bottom number because they freely admit to having to gradually tighten the standard and they admit that up to 30% of people with a reasonable BMI would nevertheless be expected to have a problem) they have gone well beyond any notion of certification as we have known it.

It's junk science being thrown at the pilot population with little regard for the consequence and it doesn't even have a reasonable chance of solving the problem - wait a minute ... what problem?

So for the guy with a 25 BMI and a neck size under 16 you don't really know if this is going to impact you. All you know for sure is you won't be one of the first to have to deal with it.

Dan
 
DanBaier said:
So for the guy with a 25 BMI and a neck size under 16 you don't really know if this is going to impact you. All you know for sure is you won't be one of the first to have to deal with it.

Dan
Click to expand...

And you very well may have severe OSA and don't know it....


OT: Whatever moderator deleted my other post. Sorry...this is a sensitive subject for me.
 
Some folk will not like what I am about to say, here goes!
1. OSA is real and does present a risk to pilots, car drivers, operators of machinery etc.
2. OSA can lead to significant other disease if left untreated - lung, heart, brain.
3. OSA is treatable by BPAP, CPAP and in some cases surgery,
4. If treated I see no reason why that person can not resume a normal life. that is pilot an aircraft (my own opinion, I know of no scientific data)
5. I do NOT agree with the FAAs dragnet type screening. People who do not have a high BMI or large neck also get OSA (not as frequently however)
6. If you have OSA you need to get it treated, if nothing else you will feel better.

That's all folks.
 
The real issue here isn't the policy itself. The real issue is that the FAA created a policy and didn't go through the proper procedure for doing so.
This is a blatant violation of the law and our rights to challenge the FAA. :mad::mad::mad:
 
DanBaier said:
Actually, I don't think the neck size of 17" triggers the test as it was described in the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical Bulletin (Vol. 51, No. 4) [emphasis is mine]:

<snip>

Dan
Click to expand...

I agree. The BMI is the initial screen, but setting the neck size at 17" probably captures 95% of the people with a BMI of 30 or more.
 
BMI so often doesn't work

I am 5'10" and 190 lbs. and my BMI is 26 + = obese.
I am in shape, size 34 waist, work out 6 days a week, but for me to get to
a BMI in the normal range, I would have to be 170 lbs....
Would look like a sick man then.
 
Where are the thousands of folks that posted on, what is your day job? The lawyers and legal folk? We need you help! Chime in and give us your thoughts. I know you are out there reading and sitting on the side lines, but this is 4th qtr and seconds to go!
 
These guys making these "rules" were not elected and have no right to make rules that are really laws we must follow. It is pure c r a p. Their whole attitude and position is flawed. This makes the bill that was introduced into congress for drivers license even more critical. If we fight this overreach by the FAA and use this example as why we need the new law to keep unelected people from destroying general aviation, we can win.

It is time to call in the favors from those elected officials you have donated to - either party, call the members of congress you may know, people in the press, whoever you can that will listen.

And if this is too "political" to stay on the forum, we have lost already.

craigvince said:
The real issue here isn't the policy itself. The real issue is that the FAA created a policy and didn't go through the proper procedure for doing so.
This is a blatant violation of the law and our rights to challenge the FAA. :mad::mad::mad:
Click to expand...
 
bret said:
Where are the thousands of folks that posted on, what is your day job? The lawyers and legal folk? We need you help! Chime in and give us your thoughts. I know you are out there reading and sitting on the side lines, but this is 4th qtr and seconds to go!
Click to expand...

Looking forward to more clients.
 
The FAA has officially ceased to be an effective regulatory association for aviators. Time to contact our senators and association representatives and demand a change. It's obvious they intend to bring about the demise of general aviation.
BMI is an outdated means of measuring body mass. It does not take into account body mass composition. As mentioned already, you could be an NFL athlete and not qualify under the new proposed rules.
I am saddened by the current state of our aviation system. Aviation is dying...rapidly. Why do they think people are building experimentals by the thousands...because no one can afford certified.
First they regulate the cost up to the point no one can afford them, now they set the medical standards so high no one can qualify to fly them. Hmmm....I wonder whats going on...Its depressing. Maybe I oughta toss in the towel and build that cobra replica I've been dreaming about instead.
 
DaAV8R said:
I don't really know anything about this test, but I read that about 95% of the people that take the test fail. At this point I assume this is a very trendy diagnosis and that it is a medical racket. Can anyone confirm or refute this?
Click to expand...

The overall prevalence in the USA is only a few percent of the population, but it is much higher in obese individuals (and in males vs females, and in smokers).....so testing obese men will result in a much higher rate of positive results.

"OSA is increasingly prevalent, in both adults and children, in modern society. The estimated prevalence has been 2% for women and 4% for men.[33, 34] Similar data have been found in an epidemiologic study from Pennsylvania.[35, 12] More recent research indicates a prevalence of 4% for women and 9% for men. Data from the Wisconsin Cohort Study indicate that the prevalence of OSA in people aged 30-60 years is 9-24% for men and 4-9% for women."
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/295807-overview#a0156

Reminds me of attention deficit disorder. In the old days, some kids were a wild child. Today, 50% of all kids have ADD. Sleep apnea seems like the same type of medical trend.
Click to expand...

Only about 11% of kids - not 50% - in the USA are diagnosed with ADHD.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html
 
Professional athletes are not immune to severe OSA. I know of at least one that has died from its effects.

Thats my point, OSA does not single out fat people. Skinny people can have it too.

If you have untreated OSA, your just as likely to die flying a plane from OSA related conditions as the overweight guy.

This FAA policy is BS.
 
rv6rick said:
Say what? I could own 4 or 5 150's for the price of one new RV 2 seater. What am I missing?
Click to expand...
RV's and 150's aren't even on the same page. You want a new sky catcher (worthless for anything other the local puttering...it's 135k).
New practical two person cross country hauler (182) it's 500k. If you think certified is cheap...you've been sleeping for half a century. A 152 is not a practical two person x-country plane. It's a local flight/trainer. Most are still overpriced relative to what they cost new.
 
So under the current rules, it is my understanding, if you have a valid medical and a health issue that you are aware of pops up, that you know the FAA says you can't fly with you are required to ground yourself?

Does that mean if you have a BMI > 40 after January you have to quit flying?

"The FAA currently lists 5,000 pilots with a BMI of 40 or greater and more than 120,000 who qualify as obese with a BMI of 30 or higher."

Are they going to go through all current medicals and look for BMIs and send out notices to stop flying?

Not sure about everywhere, but any place I have practiced medicine it usually takes 3 months to even schedule a sleep study, then another 3-6 months to complete the evaluation and therapy process.

Get ready to pickle your airplanes.
 
In my area it took over 3 months from first visit to getting treatment. It took 2 weeks just to get the first appointment and I did not count that.

Some insurance takes forever to authorize each step of the process.

Some insurance won't cover an overnight in office sleep study. Some want an at home study because it is cheaper.

I doubt the FAA will ever allow at home studies because there is no guarantee who is wearing the gear.

I doubt insurance is gonna accept paying for FAA ordered sleep studies!

The cost so far billed to my insurance has exceeded $6000.00.

I am not against getting treatment if you need it. It is the best thing I have done to improve my health and how I feel overall in many years.
 
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Brantel said:
Professional athletes are not immune to severe OSA. I know of at least one that has died from its effects.

......
Click to expand...

Died from OSA, or died from one of it's effects that would have been identified on it's own in a FAA medical?
 
Solutions...maybe??

For sake of brevity, let’s agree the new FAA “process enhancement” is an absurd plan and needs to be defeated.

Quickest way, IMO, is to shine light on the FAA Medical Director and have Congress overrule it. Our pilot population is small overall and the “Ouch Factor”, if you will, doesn’t cause a great seismic rumble throughout the population. Major attention needs to be brought to this issue. I have a couple of ideas as follows:

1. Try to stage a massive coordinated short term (1 day) civilian pilot stand-down, strike, boycott, stoppage or whatever you want to call it. We could do it. We need all the alphabet organizations including Airline Pilots to join in. Plan it for a time when Congress wants to either leave or return to D.C.

2. Scream “DISCRIMINATION” and have the medical requirement EXPANDED to include ALL forms of transportation down to tricycles. Hold it! Please hear me out. I traveled this morning on US HWY 59, a NAFTA highway that goes from the Mexican border all the way to the Canadian border. Most of the highway was 2 lane with occasional passing lanes; not 4 lane highway. There were many 5 to 6,000 pound SUV’s capable of carrying 6 to 8 passengers coming the opposite way at 75 mph and we were only separated by two small yellow stripes.

There exists voluminous amounts of direct evidence of deaths caused by sleep, inattention, distraction, alcohol or drug influence, etc. The current year's Texas death toll is about 2,700 +/-.

Why then I ask you, should we pilots be singled out??? If I’m a risk in an RV-4, I might cross a lane in a pickup or run my bicycle into some mother pushing her little child in a baby carriage, right??? It appears the Department of Transportation (DOT) and the FAA are going to protect all us Americans By Gosh or By Golly; so let’s cover it all!!!

I offer to you this increases the "Ouch Factor" to such a point that action would be taken. Either one of the above, particularly the latter, would then do to the masses what it is doing to we few now. Make them very angry!!

I’m agitated and aggravated folks. I’ve been flying some 48 years now. Here I am now in my advancing years, still very healthy; and instead of just concentrating on a preflight inspection and a nice flight this lovely fall morning, here I am pounding on a processor because I see one of my life’s passions under some severe and inane bureaucratic attack. This “process enhancement” proposal shocks and violates all my senses of fairness, reasonableness, justice, practicality and common sense.

I cannot just stand by and do nothing. I will propose this to all the alphabet organizations of which I’m a member and beseech assistance from my airline pilot buddies. I ask you for any help and ideas. I think we should discuss those on the AOPA and EAA forums as they get energy and ideas from their membership.

We should be celebrating Doug’s 5,000th day instead of having this cloud over our heads. ….Happy 5,000 Doug!!! :D
….Good luck to us all and God Bless you all. I wish you happy and safe flying on. …. I’m out of here for a while and am going to go love on my RV-4.

Cheers,
 
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Just read this from left seat.com.

Most highly fit people have a high BMI score but very little body fat. For them the waist circumference, the skin-fold or fat-fold measurements, or MORE DIRECT methods of measuring body fat may be more useful measures.

I am in this category like a lot of NORMAL people I know. This Ht X Lb formula may be ok for a HS senior, but not a 50 Year old. And.... They say that you should have the waist line that you had in THE 12th grade? Are you kidding me? I am at THEIR 33 # but do not consider myself obese. If I go swimming and stop moving, I will sink to the bottom, how can that ratio of LBM to fat be considered obese? Sorry for the rant. Think I'll go finish sanding my wheel pants, wait, I might not be able to finish this project because of these idiots. I Think I'll go have a beer and get more obese!
 
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dealfair said:
Why then I ask you, should we pilots be singled out??? If I?m a risk in an RV-4, I might cross a lane in a pickup or run my bicycle into some mother pushing her little child in a baby carriage, right??? It appears the Department of Transportation (DOT) and the FAA are going to protect all us Americans By Gosh or By Golly; so let?s cover it all!!!
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with you to first say why does it single out pilots and all people that operate a vehicle in the national transportation system and second, with more involved there will be more protest and possibility of over riding the DOT.

I think I read that DOT did propose same/similar testing for over the road truckers. They have already got congress to pass legislation to not have to comply.
 
For me, the operative word is DEALT - as in

" Once we have appropriately dealt with every airman examinee...."

We are not to be handled, processed, treated or whatever - we are to be DEALT WITH - as if we are some sort of burr under the saddle of the FAA, or this Administration, or this Flight Surgeon, or whoever, and need to be....well.....dealt with.

All in the name of good health - of course - soon we'll all die of good health.

Meanwhile, the camel's nose is under the tent - there are innumerable other bad things that pilots do that need to be "dealt with", starting with smoking, of course, and drinking, and lack of exercise, and poor eating habits - and someday just being born with the wrong genes - ones that predispose one towards this illness or that. And, of course, the new health plan will have everyone's records in a central database, facilitating all sorts of mischief, checking and cross-checking.

What a wonderful world.....

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
The bigger issue is what will happen when all these people stop flying?

The vendors that support all of us will see their business fall off, many of them will close up shop, and the cost of parts and services for the rest of us will have to go up to keep the few remaining companies in operation.

Just removing a small percentage of the ever shrinking pilot population could be devastating to all of us.
 
17 inch neck/33 inch waist....5'10"/177.....cholesterol 166.."Sorry chief" you're disqualified. See that guy in the waiting room? He's my next patient....if you could grow a beer belly like his, say 40 inch waist, and note his pencil neck, well, that would be better for you." ......what morons!!!!!!!! Standby for a resurgence of P90X....:cool:
 
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N941WR said:
The bigger issue is what will happen when all these people stop flying?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but I'd have to ask...what makes you think that "all" of these people will stop flying?

I'd submit that the percentage of people who comply with a rule varies directly with how reasonable it is. Conversely, the more unreasonable the rule, the higher the percentage of folks who ignore it.

I can't believe the FAA hasn't considered this aspect.
 
BMI is junk science!

The FAA using BMI as a sacred indictor of you knocking on death's door is pathetic. It's pure junk science. I'm 5' 8-3/4", have always had a muscular build. By the BMI table, the MAXIMUM ideal weight for me is 140 lbs!! I haven't weighed that since I was a sophomore in high school (44 yrs ago) and the coach gave me pee pills to make my wrestling weigh-in weight of 141. For God's sake, this is pure insanity!
I've already written my congressmen and senators with the details of this ridiculous plan... we ALL need to rise to the occasion to do whatever it takes to get the FAA Administrator to get his organization out of the ditch.
 
OK, OK - now I'm starting to research this critter - according to the NIH - National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute:

Untreated sleep apnea can:

Increase the risk of high blood pressure, heart attack, stroke, obesity, and diabetes"

But - according to the Flight Surgeon, and some posters on this Forum, Obesity and a high BMI is a prime CAUSE of Sleep Apnia.

Well - does Obesity cause Sleep Apnia, or does Sleep Apnia cause Obesity? Maybe Sleep Apnia caused my Obesity, which, in turn, caused my Sleep Apnia. Geez.

It also can affect anyone, even children. And, all this info shows people sleeping on their back, but I only sleep on my side - does the airway collapse then also?

Bob Bogash
RV-12
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
It also can affect anyone, even children. And, all this info shows people sleeping on their back, but I only sleep on my side - does the airway collapse then also?
Click to expand...

NASA515 said:
For me, the operative word is DEALT - as in

" Once we have appropriately dealt with every airman examinee...."
Click to expand...

Once they have DEALT with every airman with a BMI greater then XX then they will deal with all those that sleep on their back.

May sound unlikely but the precedence they are going to set if this stands may allow them to move that direction.
 
one more comment
If it is the DOT policy lets make it universal
BMI over 40
no driver license
no ship crews
no sail boating on federal waters
no power boating on federal waters
no trains
no congressmen or senators
no professional athletes
no lawers or judges since they might fall asleep
no professional musicians
since they might fall off a stage

we really need fight this stupidity
 
plehrke said:
Once they have DEALT with every airman with a BMI greater then XX then they will deal with all those that sleep on their back.

May sound unlikely but the precedence they are going to set if this stands may allow them to move that direction.
Click to expand...
Hmm... Maybe this whole thing was started by our wives who want us to stop snoring at night so they can get a good night's sleep... :)
 
Attitude reflects Leadership

NASA515 said:
For me, the operative word is DEALT - as in

" Once we have appropriately dealt with every airman examinee...."
Click to expand...

Everyone seems to be getting worked up about the method of using BMI. You are missing the point. BMI is only a methodology for ranking "every airman examinee." It could just as easily be the first letter of your last name, or the last digit of your Social Security Number. The real issue is the capriciousness of the requirement and venturing into predictive medicine. As long as everybody is focusing on the selection criteria and not on the regulatory overreach the nanny state wins.

As you are communicating with your elected representatives about your support for the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act, you may want to mention this issue as well. I am sure that AOPA, EAA and others already are. BTW, the DOT is attempting to do the same thing to all truckers. H.R. 3095 which forces the DOT to use it's normal rulemaking process went through both houses with unanimous consent and was signed by President Obama DURING THE SHUTDOWN. While we don't have Teamster muscle to help push this through, it is at least encouraging. It may not change the outcome, but it gives us a fighting chance.

For those wishing to debate the finer details of useless minutiae, normal service may resume. I am going to see if I have received any responses from my e-mails and start making a few phone calls.

Tom
 
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