Can anyone build and fly a plane?

Will start this thread with a brief disclaimer. I'm a newbie to aviation. I have never flown a plane and am in the process of decided if this is for me, and if so, which plane. I am extremely teachable, value and respect the insight on this forum immensely, but am also an astute observer and not easily swayed by fluffy talk that isn't backed up by facts and experience.

I recently read an article on the EAA website where the author was sort of making a case that anyone can build and fly a plane. At first I took great encouragement from it, but the aftertaste wasn't as pleasant and I didn't know why.

Several days ago I had a patient in the office who is a retired military pilot. A very friendly guy, so I engaged him with the statement, "I'm thinking about learning to fly with the goal of building my own plane". I obviously hit a nerve and he replied that despite his many years of experience, he would never climb into a home built plane. I questioned him further and told him of this forum, which contains numerous builders who have military and commercial flight experience. He then clarified by saying that it's not so much the home built plane he doesn't trust, but the average home builder he has a problem with, stating that building a plane takes a person with better than average attention to detail and better than average attention to upkeep, etc. I agreed with him and he challenged me to check out the NTSB.gov website and browse the section that documents aircraft accidents. I took his advise and after several days of reading reports, I am sobered to say the least. I started compiling some stats on accidents and this is what I have come up with so far. Since the beginning of 2004, there have been 201 RV accidents, 61 of which involved fatalities, for a 30% fatality rate. I also ran a check on Kitfox, because that is one I'm also considering. In the same time frame, there have been 53 accidents, 5 of which involved fatalities, for a 9.5% fatality rate. I assume this is lower than RVs because of the high wing configuration. I have never believed that home builts are less safe than factory built planes and a quick search on Cirrus showed 117 accidents, 48 of which involved fatalities for a whooping 41% fatality rate. I read many reports, and quite possibly some of them involved people who frequent this forum. It seems many involved engine failure just after takeoff, which puts a pilot in a vulnerable position. I understand that. Other reports though detailed poor decision making as principle reasons for the accident.

So why do I bring all this up? Am I dwelling on the negative, as some might accuse? I'd rather thinking I'm dwelling on reality instead. I'm still enthusiastic about the prospects of learning to fly and building my own plane, but I'm glad my military pilot friend helped me see the other side of the "anyone can build and fly" coin, because I now feel that just because anyone "can" doesn't necessarily mean than anyone "should". Do I have the right mentality, attention to detail, discipline, and ability to maintain a plane? I am searching that question in myself and hope the answer will be "yes". Thanks for hanging with me. I'm in "learn" mode here folks and not afraid to be told I'm wrong.

diamond said:

Will start this thread with a brief disclaimer. I'm a newbie to aviation. I have never flown a plane and am in the process of decided if this is for me, and if so, which plane. I am extremely teachable, value and respect the insight on this forum immensely, but am also an astute observer and not easily swayed by fluffy talk that isn't backed up by facts and experience.

I recently read an article on the EAA website where the author was sort of making a case that anyone can build and fly a plane. At first I took great encouragement from it, but the aftertaste wasn't as pleasant and I didn't know why.

Several days ago I had a patient in the office who is a retired military pilot. A very friendly guy, so I engaged him with the statement, "I'm thinking about learning to fly with the goal of building my own plane". I obviously hit a nerve and he replied that despite his many years of experience, he would never climb into a home built plane. I questioned him further and told him of this forum, which contains numerous builders who have military and commercial flight experience. He then clarified by saying that it's not so much the home built plane he doesn't trust, but the average home builder he has a problem with, stating that building a plane takes a person with better than average attention to detail and better than average attention to upkeep, etc. I agreed with him and he challenged me to check out the NTSB.gov website and browse the section that documents aircraft accidents. I took his advise and after several days of reading reports, I am sobered to say the least. I started compiling some stats on accidents and this is what I have come up with so far. Since the beginning of 2004, there have been 201 RV accidents, 61 of which involved fatalities, for a 30% fatality rate. I also ran a check on Kitfox, because that is one I'm also considering. In the same time frame, there have been 53 accidents, 5 of which involved fatalities, for a 9.5% fatality rate. I assume this is lower than RVs because of the high wing configuration. I have never believed that home builts are less safe than factory built planes and a quick search on Cirrus showed 117 accidents, 48 of which involved fatalities for a whooping 41% fatality rate. I read many reports, and quite possibly some of them involved people who frequent this forum. It seems many involved engine failure just after takeoff, which puts a pilot in a vulnerable position. I understand that. Other reports though detailed poor decision making as principle reasons for the accident.

So why do I bring all this up? Am I dwelling on the negative, as some might accuse? I'd rather thinking I'm dwelling on reality instead. I'm still enthusiastic about the prospects of learning to fly and building my own plane, but I'm glad my military pilot friend helped me see the other side of the "anyone can build and fly" coin, because I now feel that just because anyone "can" doesn't necessarily mean than anyone "should". Do I have the right mentality, attention to detail, discipline, and ability to maintain a plane? I am searching that question in myself and hope the answer will be "yes". Thanks for hanging with me. I'm in "learn" mode here folks and not afraid to be told I'm wrong.

Click to expand...

Stop thinking so much and go take some flying lessons.

If you are really worried

I would suggest you take one of the RV builder classes that the EAA offers. The class has you build a trailing edge of a control surface as the final project. This will allow you to:

1. Learn about building an aluminum aircraft
2. Get hands on instruction from some very experienced staff
3. See if you have not only the ability to build, but the enjoyment as well

I am a first time builder and took the class then ordered the tail kit of my RV-10. I would not say that building the plane is hard, it is more tedious. You are doing a lot of repetitive tasks. Vans designs and plans are very well done and will allow most people to be successful in their building. If you look at the NTSB reports you will not find any where the Vans aircraft wing fell off, or the tail fell off so the construction of the airframe is not the problem.

One thing I have learned about he NTSB reports is most accidents could be prevented and are usually a chain of events and poor decisions that lead to the crash. I read them to make me a better pilot, not to say, wow I am going to die in this thing.

Hope this helps.

Yes!

Someone else said it better than me a long time ago:

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -Henry Ford

It is difficult, complex, expensive and dangerous

It is difficult, complex, expensive and dangerous. If you like that and are willing to dedicate your life to this one specific activity and are not handicapped in some way that makes it impossible, then this is for you. If not, don't even think about it.

Bob Axsom

Hi,
welcome to the aviation world. I feel you should do a bit of "old school " aviating before you consider building or flying a RV. By old school I mean , join a flying school and learn to fly in a certified trainer with a good instructor. If you enjoy it and want more then assess your abilities and consider the RV route if appropriate.
RV aircraft are reasonably high performance [cant comment on 12] and should be a next step in my humble opinion. There are many highly skilled pilots on this forum who can give a better opinion as to the progression of skill and aircraft chosen.

2 Cents time.

I am still working on my Private Pilot. I have 77 hours in and havent flown in the past 2 years. As life normally does, things come up that have to be given a priority. I plan on getting back into it in 2010. That is after I get moved into that new job and somewhere in Washington State. (now there is a bunjee jump)

As for building, yes, I would like to build an aircraft as well. Just ordered the tools I need to assemble the Vans Airfoil kit to see if I have any skills. My mechanical skills are building hotrods (for fun) and all the primary areas (mechanical, welding, bodywork/paint, electrical). Didnt learn them all overnight. The wanting is the key. Read books, practice.

Some of the advice I have seen on this site is valid. Get the ticket first. Work on those skills. If you have your 3rd class medical, mabey take a trip out to Oregon, and schedule a flight in one of Vans aircraft. This will let you know if you even like them.

I flew Cessnas and Piper Warriors before I decided which plane I wanted to train in. I prefer Warriors. I think you should try the same for the RV.

After a few hours if you feel you have the hang of flying, and you have the extra cash, start your build or parts of it.

I know my first few lessons were interesting. I spent a year reading up, and doing the King School DVDs on my computer so I had a clue of what I was getting into. Once in the cockpit, it was, ok I know what to do--how the heck am I going to manage it all! Looks complicated at first, but it will get easier.

Not saying you can't, or shouldn't. I am from the school of know what your walking into. Makes it easier on everyone, especially yourself. I would like to static line parachute, but I dont plan on going out and spending 5 grand on stuff I will never use if I find out I dont like it.

I have never built an aircraft. I know I can. Is the 35K Warrior a better choice, or rent, or build. You can look at all those numbers to and go nuts.

I remember a seminar I had at work once, one of the few times my former boss addressed my knowledge, the idea in training was you can be a great trainer and train anyone. I dissagreed. If YOU dont have something called DESIRE, I can never teach you anything.

Desire to do something is key. Be prepared for setbacks, as they will come. I had a car all planned out, was to take 1 year, took 3. Lots of wtf moments along the way but its done. Desire. 100% needed.

Muddied the waters?

Not true

I'm a Tech Counselor (http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/about/tech_counselors.html) and I use to think that any one could build a plane. Then I had the unfortunate experience to visit a man building a Harmon Rocket.
The airframe was complete but the workmanship was so poor that it would never have been airworthy. I didn't think it could even be salvaged. That said, what went wrong. I think his biggest mistake is that he never asked anyone any questions, never took any classes and never even read much about building an aluminum airplane.
I think if you make the effort to educate your self. Join the local EAA Chapter and get help from other local builders you'll do just fine. Like others have said building an airplane from a kit is not technically difficult but attention to detail is very important. There is a lot of information out there on how to do every detail a number of different ways, but you will have to decide what the best way is for you.

Mark, I think you have exactly the right attitude about your questions. Nobody ever went wrong with a little careful consideration.

Building and flying are very different things with different skill sets. Some of the really great builders are not pilots. Some very skilled pilots have no business trying to build an airplane. Some folks do both very well.

I do not believe "anyone" can do either.

One requirement you didn't mention is time. Both flying and building suck up lots of time. People seem to get the best results when flying and/or building are total immersion activities; other spare time pursuits are way down the priority list.

I wouldn't focus too much on the raw accident data. Individual skills and attitudes are a huge variable. It's an old aviation axiom that 90% of pilots rate themselves as "above average".

Go take some flying lessons. If you like it, get a license the conventional way. You'll find the average trainer exciting enough for a while. Get some stick time in a wide variety of aircraft and see what kind of flying you like best (low and slow, high and fast, bush, acro, etc).....then buy or build.

depends....

Well... The retired military pilot was probably thinking about those "powered picnic tables" that he had seen in his past. I would not climb into those powered picnic tables either. Not everyone can build a plane.... but if you go to a good builders assistance program, listen and learn and ask questions even if you think they are stupid questions.... you have the right attitude. And it will be a good start. By the end of the class... you will have a tail and a really good idea of if you are cut out to do it or not. Once you learn to fly, it will change your world.
Best
Brian Wallis

You might consider joining a local EAA chapter which will give you some exposure to the experimental world and might even give you an opportunity to "help" someone build. That would tell you soon enough whether it's for you. Most RV pilots I know jump at the chance to do some mentoring.

As someone else said, attention to detail is key and if you truly know how to use measuring tools, that really helps.

Jerry

Without the intent of ruffling feathers, I would encourage you to look at the cause of those RV accidents. You'll find most are caused by p**s poor judgment.

I drive a BMW and it's fast. Because it's fast and handles like it's on rails, I admit that I sometimes see just how fast I can take a corner. The car hasn't let me down yet.

The RV is no different. It's a high performance airplane and some folks just can't help but push the limits and go for the adrenaline rush. Flying fast, low, tight formation, and/or pushing the limits of the airplane.

No harm intended. It's just a fact that RV's are flown differently than a Cessna, Cirrus, Kitfox, or Cub.

I had a good friend killed just a few months ago because he couldn't resist the urge to keep his wings level at low altitude and airspeed.

Go get some training in the form of flight lessons, and you'll be exposed to 95% of what kills pilots. No airspeed, no altitude, uncoordinated flight, or flight into weather.

The more you learn in your lessons, the more you'll be able to peel the onion of those NTSB reports and really have good understand of the dynamics in play and the knowledge to separate the facts from the numbers.

Go get those lessons!! You'll never regret it.

Two disclaimers:
- It will be way more fun/rewarding/challenging than can be expressed over the internet
- It will be way more expensive than you ever thought

I love flying. It is the principal reason that my bank account is constantly empty. If you enjoy flying and building, you'll probably enjoy motorcycling/tinkering just as much, and it's way cheaper. Or maybe build an FFR cobra, which I plan to do before I buy my RV kit.

Just as I expected, excellent advise from a variety of perspectives. I guess it just freaked me out a bit to read reports of guys who were posting on this forum one day and perishing in their planes the next. I'm generally not a fearful person. I'm an avid adventurist who has flirted with death enough times to know that if I become a pilot, I must certainly put those "push the limit" tendencies far behind me. Thanks again for the great advise.

Same Scenario

I'm a M.D. that is in the same situation - I thought long and hard about weather this was a "good" idea.

I'm trying to build as safe a plane and a pilot as I can.

I made sure I didn't just get a PPL - I added on an instrument rating, so that if I accidenly flew into the soup I can handle it.

I'm not a high time pilot - I'm going to start doing transition training now, I'm about 1/2 way done with the fuse. I'm going to try to get a decent amount of dual, type specific time before I fly my own.

I'm buliding a tri-cycle, It takes more skill to fly a taildragger and I don't fly often enough to do that.

There is no such things as no-risk aviation, I'm just trying to be as risk averse as I can.

As others have said, join your local EAA chapter. Here in Charlotte we put a lot of pressure on our members to do everything right. We are not at the point with our FSDO that if it gets past our Tech Inspectors (of which, I'm one), they they only want to see the paperwork. If they present the plane without our inspection sheets, the FAA will be there for hours rather than minutes.

For example, I had four of our tech inspectors look over my engine installation before moving it out of the basement. (They also inspect the fuselage during the build.) Once it was assembled I had a number of other RV builders come and look things over, as well as the tech inspectors.

They didn't find very much but that was because I was using them and this forum to build a good plane.

Go visit some projects, see what's involved. Building a plane is not difficult, just a LOT of simple tasks!

As for the KitFox, it is a nice plane but go check out the Highlander by www.justaircraft.com. Of the two, I would rather have the Highlander. I've flown three of them and they are a great plane, even though you haven't heard much about them. Also search youtube, there is some great customer footage on there.

There is nothing like flying a plane that stalls in the mid 20 mph range!

Mark,

As others have suggested, there is more insight to be gained from looking deeper into the accident data. Not just comparing accident and fatality rates for different aircraft types, but also analyzing the types of accidents and their causes. You will find that the majority of accidents for virtually all aircraft types are the result of poor decision making by the pilot, not mechanical failures. And of the instances of mechanical failures in amateur-built aircraft, and RV's in particular, many involve poor decision making by the builder in modifying critical systems (commonly the fuel system) without fully understanding the effects of the modification. And back to "pilot error" type accidents, the following statement may ruffle some feathers, but it needs to be said: As a population, amateur-built aircraft pilots tend to engage in higher-risk flying activities (aerobatics, formation, low altitude, etc.) more than production aircraft pilots do. But you don't have to. Without passing judgment one way or the other, I will simply say that most accidents are not purely random events, and you as a builder and as a pilot will be making many choices that can strongly influence your level of risk.

Now Mark, this inquiry that you've made here is already a very positive indication that you do possess at least one important attribute for a person who can build and fly an airplane safely: seeking factual data and making logical, informed decisions. Looking deeper and not simply buying into the catchy slogans of either side of a debate ("anyone can build and fly a plane" vs. "never climb into a home built airplane") already puts you ahead of the curve. Apply the same inquisitiveness and skepticism throughout the process, demand nothing less than fact and logic, and you will be well on your way to becoming a good airplane builder and a good pilot. And always be, as you put it, in "learn mode".

-Roee

The question shouldn't so much be CAN anyone build/fly a plane, but SHOULD anyone... With some obvious exceptions, the first is true. I really believe your question is personal--should you build/fly. Quite a few have said you should at least give flying a try, and I concur. The risks are surprising low, especially considering the amount of knowledge you will acquire.

You will learn a lot that will help you with the "raw data" from the NTSB. This can be very misleading, at best. Porsche automobiles have (I believe) the lowest accident rate of any car on the road. Is that because of the skill of the driver, the quality of the car, or because they aren't driven as much as, say, Pontiacs. RV's are flown! My insurance is less than a friend pays on his like-value Bonanza. Insurance companies probably analyze data fairly well.

I haven't heard of an RV failing for any reason other than those problem areas that affect all aircraft, or from some inattention that should have been caught, if proper procedures were followed. Yes, we have had tip-overs, but even those usually were pilot-induced. And the problem seems to have been fixed. There are plenty of TCs who will check your work, if only you ask.

I don't consider my RV flying any more dangerous than when I was in the Cessna mode. I am just having lots more fun, and actually going places--for less fuel money. That's worth something.

Bob Kelly

community

I come from a background of NO experience in building ANYTHING, but a pilot's license, a STRONG desire to build this thing, a willingness to commit to the LEARNING curve, a committment to take as long as it takes to do it right and a comfort with publicly showing myself to be an idiot in the interest of enabling other's to help me do a better job of building.

I spent a lot of time searching for a good EAA chapter. There are some out there full of builder wannabe's. I found one (663, Livermore CA) full of people who have built fantastic planes, many repeat offenders, metal, composite, wood, classic restorations etc. I found that the ones who were already flying would frequently be found wandering around with a forelorn look, poking their heads into hangars where there were projects being built. They were really having bad building withdrawal!

What I didn't expect was the incredible generosity of these folks with their knowledge and time. With some, you had to make it clear you were open to hear their advice (old school types where they kept their mouths shut unless invited to comment) and others who didn't care if they had an invitation, they'd let you know what they think.

It took a while to develop the sense that when you asked a question of several people and got the same answer YOU DO IT THAT WAY (backed up by AC43.13 and research). If you got many different answers, there was probably a lot of leeway in how to do things.

If you view it as moving in to a new community and being open to advice yet discriminating about it, backed up by your own research, it is DOABLE.

I view the need to immerse yourself in a community committed to high quality to be paramount, at least for me. Fortunately, as you've already discovered, this forum is an EXCELLENT part of the community.

The issue of accidents: they do tend to be somewhat Darwinian. Not all, but many. Higher speeds and energy frequently equal lower survival rates. There are occaisionally examples of people who seemed informed that turn out to have compromised judgement, for one reason or another. I think they're in the minority but we can learn from it all. I took pause at the rather infamous RV10 NTSB report, but used it as a cautionary tale for my own tendencies to rush when tired.

I think the advise to get some lessons is great. You may find out whether this is an "I GOTTA DO THIS" or "I could take it or leave it". I don't think I'd undertake it unless you're the first case, if it were me.

Last piece of advice: if you do take on a build, don't even try to predict when it will be done!

Jeremy Constant
filling out registration paperwork on 7A

Building and Flying

Mark,

Wise people over the years have reminded me to keep a couple of things clear in my mind.

Some people love to fly.

Some people love to build.

A few people seem to love both equally, but most of us seem to favor one over the other. I've always been told that it's better to rent or buy if what you REALLY love to do it fly. And it's better to build if what you REALLY love to do is build.

For my part, I LOVE to fly . . . have loved it ever since I was a kid. I admire the men and women who build and I enjoy reading about their exploits on this site. Someday I may try my hand at it, but I enjoy this site mainly because I love airplanes and like to read about others who do too.

You might want some time to figure out what you really want to do. The most important thing is to get up in the air in airplane enough times to decide if it catches your fancy.

Another thing to remember . . . When an airplane crashes, the amount of energy that must be dissipated is directly and exponentially related to the speed at which the accident happens. It stands to reason that a crash in an airplane like the Kitfox that flies much more slowly than an RV would be less likely to result in a fatality. This doesn't mean, however, that Kitfoxes are inherently more safe than RVs. More analysis must be done of the total accident picture.

Here's my own mental preparation that I rehearse frequently to remind me how to deal with the inherent danger in aviation: A well-prepared pilot who flies a well-built and well-maintained airplane prudently can reduce the risk to a level that most reasonable people can accept.

Best wishes in your exploration.

David

To answer your question, Can anyone build an airplane? No.

If you are worried about dying, don't fly private planes.

If you are worried about dying, don't drive a car.

If you are worried about dying, (I hate to be the one to break the the news to you, but...) death is unavoidable.

Last but not least, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. It took one old jeolous X-military know-it-all guy who doesn't know what he's talking about to get you to doubt what your dreams are. You don't have the "fire in the belly" yet, stay on the porch.

As Phil suggested, take a look at the why the accidents happened.

An amazing number of RV accidents happened because the aerobatic versions are so fun--fun to push the limits. So too many have buzzed, looped too low, etc. If one wants to insure they will be tame, look at the RV-9 & 9A accidents. No fatalities yet, although there was a double fatality in a prototype that was built from an RV-6. The RV-9 handles beautifully, but you don't get the same urge play fighter pilot like -3, -4, -6 & -7. Kind of like the difference between a sports car and race cars--they all handle well, but some are sportier than others.

Regarding fatality rates, the slower the impact, the less serious the injuries. Someone said about the Piper Cub something like "it flies so slow it can just barely kill you". RV's are faster; Kitfox's are slower. Cirrus is faster.

This applies to all planes: A huge proportion of accidents happen because pilots screw up, especially in terms of running out of gas. Everyone makes mistakes, but in flying, as in many aspects of life, some mistakes are fatal. If you have good self discipline, you can reduce, but not eliminate the risks. But life is not risk free and you take a risk every time you fire up your car and venture out on the highway or even walk across the street. Flying IS more dangerous than driving--but it is more rewarding, too.

Lastly, I have never met a better bunch of people than pilots. You'll enjoy being a part of that crowd.

These figures are quite sobering in the OP, for sure, thanks for bringing it up. I actually counted 62 of 201 reports that involved 86 fatalities (not 61) with RV’s starting at the beginning of 2004 as well. Just quickly scanned through it all, I may be off by one or two. If you want to use that as a fatality rate, that would bring it to 42.7% for RV’s that get reported. Probably more accurate to reflect the 62 reports that involved at least one fatality. A two-seater will obviously have a better chance of more fatalities than a one-seater. A four-seater more than the one and two-seaters. Van’s latest count also shows 6363 RV’s completed.

Take a look at certified planes as well for comparison. I searched Cessna 150's and 172’s. For the 150 (aprox. 24,000 built, not sure how many are flying today) it had 242 reports and 60 fatalities during the same time period search I did for the RV’s. The 172 (some 43,000 produced as of 2008) had 851 reports and 221 fatalities.

My best guess for these fatalities with RV’s isn’t because of the poor workmanship of the plane or the attitude of the builder. If it was, they would be showing up as airframe failures. I went to my first Oshkosh this year, and by far, more times than not, the workmanship appeared to be outstanding: especially among the RV crowd. They definitely had the right attitude.

I think where some of the RV crowd--and what others are also saying, is that it's acrobatics that are getting them into trouble, and doing things in it that normally it wouldn’t dare do in certified planes. Certified planes basically are conservative flyers. RVer’s like to do lot more than just fly straight and keeping the wings level and just getting from point A to B.

I believe the low wing plane probably gives you better protection in a crash than a high wing plane unless you came in inverted, and in that case, I don’t think either plane would do you much good. Otherwise, if you came in hard, you’ve got more area of the plane to absorb the impact with the low wings and fuselage, compared to a high-wing plane that will be mostly fuselage.

some insight

Mark...
I understand your feelings. My advice is to take it one step at a time. Find a good instructor and see if flying is really for you. If you can find the passion for flight that we pilots feel, than dedicate yourself to mastering the art of flying. Try different types of aircraft to see what airplane and mission turns your screw. sign on as a riveting helper to get exposed to the homebuilding experience. help out on a rag and tube plane to learn more skills... anything to get exposure. Look to folks at EAA to help you along the path.
You will find that the great majority of people involved in aviation, and homebuilding in particular, to be most willing to share their skills and experience with you. It's a big big part of our lifestyle.
As you progress, most of your safety questions will be answered, and you will build skill and confidence in your piloting abilities.
The question of whether to build or buy will become clearer.
your fears will be replaced with confidence in your abilities.
Just a couple of personal observations I would like to pass on:
Learning to fly is easy.. becoming a good pilot is a lifelong commitment to training and practice. It takes focus and determination, and dedication of your time.
Poor decision making and trip planning is the real killer of men in our sport.
Although it does happen, it is less likely that an aircraft airframe or power plant issue will cause injury or worse. We have had 3 accidents in the last 10 years at our airport (none fatal or with serious injury) from planes that have just run out of gas. To non aviation folks, it seems impossible, yet has been seen as one of the biggest safety issues to overcome.
Building an aircraft can be one of the most rewarding projects you could ever imagine. But I warn you. It will require you to commit major blocks of your time to complete. It will cost you more than you planned. And you may become very absorbed in the project, which can lead to family stress.
Weigh these effects carefully. If you can't do it, or just don't like the building process, consider buying a nice plane to fly. Nothing wrong with that.

As for me, I love to fly, and take it seriously. I play by the rules. I maintain my aircraft with no compromises.
I love the building process, and am currently building another aircraft (that I don't need) strictly for the joy of the project. When this one is done, I will build another, and another.
Passion is a big part of all of this aviation stuff.
I hope you find it..

Regards,
Chris

Bdalporto said:

I'm a Tech Counselor (http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/about/tech_counselors.html) and I use to think that any one could build a plane. Then I had the unfortunate experience to visit a man building a Harmon Rocket.
The airframe was complete but the workmanship was so poor that it would never have been airworthy. I didn't think it could even be salvaged. That said, what went wrong. I think his biggest mistake is that he never asked anyone any questions, never took any classes and never even read much about building an aluminum airplane.

Click to expand...

What does something like this look like? The only thing that comes to mind would be edge distance violations.

update

Please forgive me on the thread creep.... but also as a subtitle, it should also be "Can anyone work on an airplane along with finding a trusted mechanic if you are a buyer instead of a builder". I applaud the people who recognize that they are not apt to build. It takes some introspection to go through the "is it right for me to build AND MAINTAIN an aircraft. You have some of the brightest people in the world floating around on these forums.... and... observing the bell curve... the opposite as well. Thankfully the latter usually don't take on building and maintaining the aircraft. As a matter of fact, the latter group probably do not know that the forums exist.. or if they do... they wandered upon it by accident. In observations of the human being, I have found many interesting quirks. A lot of people are book smart but not common sense smart... a lot of people are common sense smart... but not book smart, a lot of people have a good dose of both. After the aircraft enters your hands, it's time to do a little research. Not only do you want to have a long and productive life, you don't want to be a thorn in others sides as well. When you decide to maintain or have someone else maintain your aircraft for you please do the following.

Maintain the aircraft within legal and common sense standards. We hate reading in the news about an accident. We really hate reading about an avoidable accident. Just because the aircraft passed the yearly inspection by the skin of it's teeth does not mean it will last forever. Reading the RV-10 Dan Loyd report really stuck in my craw. ( I could go on an on for years on that one)
Don't be afraid to ask questions, the only stupid question is the question that is not asked (because your afraid to damage your manhood...)
If you are not maintaining the aircraft, find a trusted mechanic and stick with what they say. If you want.. please feel free to get a second or third opinion... you will not hurt our feelings by asking questions. Yes.. there are crooked mechanics out there... as well as crooked pilots.... honest ones as well. Among my notable memories is a pilot that wanted to buy an aircraft after 3 senior mechanics told him not to. He brought it to me right after I earned my IA ticket thinking that since I was new, I would not be very strict (or so I think). One rebuilt right wing later with the CORRECT wing spar and CORRECT ribs later.... as well as a few other repairs... his aircraft was legal again. He wanted to kill me but the folks at Williams in Indiana told him I saved his life when they found the wing spar to a smaller aircraft installed in the larger aircraft wing. I've also found the trailer hitch wiring harness from Walmart as a landing light attachment disconnect point, a fake inspection panel over a real 6 inch tear in the wing, a data plate mounted on an inspection panel as well as many other items. The aircraft may of flown with these items... but it was not legal. I've seen quite a few pilots that treat their aircraft like pickup trucks. One customer had his engine quit in flight... he was able to restart it by switching tanks back again... He called me and he was quite angry. He said MY ENGINE QUIT WHILE I WAS IFR!! and I responded... well... are you ok? He said yes.... I then asked him what happened... after the story.. I asked him if he preflighted the aircraft. He paused and said no. I then asked him to sump the gascolater... TA DA!!! it was full of water. The same pilot had two other similar instances with the aircraft. He also took off and none of the instruments worked. Again... he had taken off without preflighting. He had taken the aircraft off the washrack and the detail wash guy was in the middle of the job... and guess what he had put tape over?... You guessed correctly. Anyhow, I find all pilots want their aircraft to work.... which is nice.. but some don't want to follow the rules. What they don't understand is that mechanics take huge chances by providing maintenance services to these pilots. If the mechanics are smart, they take pics of all their work and document it fully. When a mechanic tells you to do something... you'd better listen. Because in all fairness they are probably right and they are looking out for you... not to fatten their wallets. We all know that if an aircraft crashes, litigation will probably follow and the easy thing to do is blame it on the mechanics as well as the people who had anything they manufactured on the aircraft. Generally aircraft mechanics do not make a ton of money... just look at what they drive.... and if they are a rip off artist... it's a small world and they are or should be out of business fairly quickly. Just because you think that you can get away with something does not mean it's the best choice.
For experimental aircraft.... only an A&P is required for the yearly inspection. I would go get an IA. They have earned that IA for a reason. Also, don't complain about the price. Go to any car dealership and see what they are charging per hour, then compare that to what your AP/IA is charging. Chances are that the IA is working for a LOT LESS than the car dealership. You can pull a car over and park it...... you can't park an airplane in a cloud. I have seen way too many pilots taking way too many chances lately and I'm tired of it. If you cannot afford to maintain it properly, sell it and rent an aircraft to at least stay current. Just the other day, I had a pilot show me his (non rv) airplane with LARGE CHUNKS OF RUST IN THE TANK. Can you believe he did not want me to remove the tanks? I'll never do any work for that guy. I've also had people ask to mail me logbooks so I can sign them off and mail them back without looking at the aircraft!!!!!!!
Now for some better news... I have some wonderful customers that do what I say... they don't hmmm or haw or anything. They pay on time and in full or if it's something big, they at least tell me up front and we work something out.
I know that this seems like a lot of ranting, but it's out there and I'm worried. I'm worried sick. I know a lot of people are putting off maintenance because of the economy.... and a lot of people have the "it won't happen to me" attitude. Also.. I see people buying aircraft because it's pretty. STOP!!!! Don't fall in love with an aircraft and buy it because it's pretty! Be prepared to walk away. It's a buyers market.... GO GET AN IA TO DO YOUR PREBUY!!! Don't just think because the owner "unbent" the prop or the wing that it will be ok!!! Take your time and don't be afraid to do the research or pay someone to do it for you. I know it seems like thread creep but I really am worried sick.

Best
Brian Wallis

Well you are asking the right questions of yourself. Only way to find out is to get started. Go take some flying lessons - if that lights a fire from the spark of interest you have get a license.

Find an EAA chapter and locate a builder near you so you can actually see what is involved. Offer the help. If that appeals shell out some bucks and by an empennage kit, some tools, and get started. You'll know pretty soon if you've got what it takes. Only one real way to find out.

Just read Brian's post and went back and read the thread pertaining to the Loyd accident. Folks, does there exist an accountability system in aviation circles, either in local EAA chapters or elsewhere, either voluntary or mandatory that says something like this: "I give you the keys to my hangar. If you ever observe either directly or through conversation with me an indication that I am acting irresponsibly in the operation of my aircraft that presents a threat to my safety or the safety of others, you can enter my hangar, without notice, and disable my aircraft." I know many will say this is overly restrictive and uncalled for, but I bet the families of many who have perished would not think so. You guys have been a wealth of info with your vast insight here. Much thanks again.

Whoa! Accountability for the direct consequences of one's own actions is one thing, but what you're suggesting sounds more like a preemptive police state. If someone entered my hangar and tampered with my aircraft, they would be 1) placing my life in danger, and 2) placing their own life in danger if I catch them!

No two people will ever be in total agreement about what constitutes "acting irresponsibly" or presenting "a threat to my safety of the safety of others". There's a spectrum of risk. Some people even argue that general aviation categorically fits that criteria. I wouldn't grant those people, nor anyone else, that level of authority over my own flying.

And as for the grieving families of those who have perished in aviation, while they may well have our sympathies, they're the last group of people in the world that I would ever want legislating aviation law. That group's influence is emotional rather than fact-based, and is already a major factor in the ever-more draconian regulations on the books, as well as the absurd rulings and damages historically awarded in aviation accident civil suits. On the whole, this trend has crippled the advancement of general aviation, and if anything has made it less safe for everyone concerned.

I would suggest that a better approach is to do our best as individuals and as an aviation community to foster a culture that is safety-conscious. If reckless behavior is looked down upon by the aviation community, then the peer pressure effect alone can go a long way in influencing people's behavior. On the other hand, trying to impose preemptive restrictions by external force tramples on everyone's liberties, and does little to influence the behavior of the few people that actually cause problems.

I know an ex-fighter pilot who wouldn't be caught flying in a homebuilt either. But on the other hand, there are MANY present & retired commercial/military pilots who do build and fly Van's RVs. I believe it's more a matter of getting acquainted with various homebuilt/kitplanes.............instead of going by generalized--gut instincts.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

L.Adamson said:

I know an ex-fighter pilot who wouldn't be caught flying in a homebuilt either. But on the other hand, there are MANY present & retired commercial/military pilots who do build and fly Van's RVs. I believe it's more a matter of getting acquainted with various homebuilt/kitplanes.............instead of going by generalized--gut instincts.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

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This is precisely the point I made to him. I think he was a reasonable guy. I just think he is uninformed about the state of the home built industry. He kept bringing up the John Denver situation (killed in a canard plane)

diamond said:

This is precisely the point I made to him. I think he was a reasonable guy. I just think he is uninformed about the state of the home built industry. He kept bringing up the John Denver situation (killed in a canard plane)

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Tell him that an Airbus 380 test pilot fly's RV's; and that we have an F-16 pilot here on this forum who fly's RV's, as well as one of the "biggest wigs" at NASA who built and fly's an RV!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Fighter pilots know how to fly and fight. That doesn't necessarily mean they know a thing about homebuilts. For many military pilots, the last time they were in a GA airplane was during initial flight training. Some hardly know you can build a plane. Before I let him influence my decisions, I would like to know what he actually knows about them--has he flown a homebuilt, particularly an RV, has he even looked into them or is he just blowing smoke?

Fly the plane first

The one thing that gets drilled in to your head as a student pilot, and reinforced by the various flying magazines and forums like these, is "fly the plane until it stops moving." From reading lots of NTSB reports, not doing this seems to be a common thread in fatal accidents, whether in experimental or certified planes.

Unfortunately, as a student pilot, I experienced an engine failure while flying solo, and all that went through my head in the minutes before I was upside down in a muddy field was "fly the plane... don't stall." I landed the C150 beautifully and rolled 200+' before the nosewheel dug in and I flipped over, but I walked away with just a bruised shin (and ego).

I went on to finish my PPL and start building and RV7A, and every day I work on the plane I consider the potential circumstances of a mistake, and use all the resources of this site, my EAA chapter, and the Van's help line to make sure I stay on track. The nice thing is that individual parts are very inexpensive, so if you screw up a part, $5 plus shipping is all it takes to insure you've built it right the 2nd time.

Get your ticket, and if you can afford it, buy a certified plane to get more time flying. If not, fly enough to stay current, and spend your evenings in the garage instead of watching TV.

Spindrift said:

Unfortunately, as a student pilot, I experienced an engine failure while flying solo, and all that went through my head in the minutes before I was upside down in a muddy field was "fly the plane... don't stall." I landed the C150 beautifully and rolled 200+' before the nosewheel dug in and I flipped over, but I walked away with just a bruised shin (and ego).

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Thanks for sharing. How tough was that to climb back in and finish your PPL after that experience? Did you have any thoughts of throwing in the towel?

diamond said:

He kept bringing up the John Denver situation (killed in a canard plane)

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Fuel selector position is not just an experimental issue, if you have selected the tank with no fuel in it for take off and expect it to fly very far it doesn't matter who built it or where the horizontal stab is located.

Rick S. said:

Fuel selector position is not just an experimental issue, if you have selected the tank with no fuel in it for take off and expect it to fly very far it doesn't matter who built it or where the horizontal stab is located.

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John Denver also at the time of the accident, had a revoked Medical and PL. All because of multiple drunk driving violations. Both documents had been revoked for some time (years) prior from what I understand.

diamond said:

He kept bringing up the John Denver situation (killed in a canard plane)

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You could just as easily bring up the late Scott Crossfield to argue why no one should fly a Cessna 210. Of course that argument would be just as illogical as the first.

1/2 mv^2

When an airplane crashes, the amount of energy that must be dissipated is directly and exponentially related to the speed at which the accident happens

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Actually it's quadratically related. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mv^2. This is a polynomial, not an exponential relationship. An exponential relationship would be something like C^v, where C is some constant and v is in the exponent. These functions grow ridiculously faster than quadratically.

Should highschool physics be a prerequisite to building your own plane? Just kidding... sorry, couldn't resist

because I now feel that just because anyone "can" doesn't necessarily mean than anyone "should". Do I have the right mentality, attention to detail, discipline, and ability to maintain a plane?

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I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but will chime in anyway. I may be repeating what someone else said...

Much more important than the raw numbers is why airplanes are crashing.

Your concern over the quality of builder (attention to detail, etc.) isn't supported by the facts. RVs don't crash because they break up in flight due to sloppy building. Van overengineered the **** out of these planes.

There are no instances that I know of where an RV was being flown within its approved flight envelope and suffered a structural failure because the build was substandard. Certainly a substandard build could lead to premature failure outside the approved envelope, but you're already in dangerous territory if you're doing that.

I think with some research you'll find that as with certificated planes, the vast majority of accidents are caused by bad judgement - flying into weather, hotrodding, etc.

Most of the RVs appeal to pilots who like to fly fast and engage in aerobatics and this may increase the accident rate, too. But to condemn the airplane because some people do stupid things makes no sense. I'm certain rice rockets have a higher accident rate than Harleys do - but does this mean they are intinsically more dangerous?

Certainly the fact that homebuilders often use experimental engine configurations (auto conversions, for example) will lead to a higher accident rate among homebuilders because of powerplant issues. You can mitigate this buy buying a shiny new lycoming and matching propeller from Van's.

Build a quality kit with reasonably good workmanship overseen by an EAA techincal counselor, use an approved engine/propeller combination and maintain it well (you'll know how to after building it) and you'll be as safe as in a similar certificated airplane. I think it is mostly how you fly, not what you fly.

As always, this post worth precisely what you paid for it...

Wow!

I love this list because so many folks on it, "Get It".

Building and Flying are really two different things. It is good advice to separate them. Try the flying first. If that does not work out, try restoring an antique car. Sounds like you are a doctor? Mid-50's Chevrolet or early Mustangs are a good choice for you. If you are a dentist, stick to motorcycles.

Not every one can build a plane, or fly them. Not everyone can be a doctor, or a welder, or a security guard or a statistician. Each has risks, for both the person and those around them. You balance risk in your life because life is risky. Even getting out of bed is risky.

For me, I can not build an experimental aircraft. But I CAN assemble a kit that is "Owner Assembled". I choose a Van's RV-9A because thousands have gone before me. I believe in "Cessna Safe" and my T-Shirt says: "RV-9A - The call of the Mild."

Dkb

diamond said:

Will start this thread with a brief disclaimer. I'm a newbie to aviation. I have never flown a plane and am in the process of decided if this is for me, and if so, which plane. I am extremely teachable, value and respect the insight on this forum immensely, but am also an astute observer and not easily swayed by fluffy talk that isn't backed up by facts and experience.

--- cut here ---

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If you started flying first, you'll probably have a better idea of what your normal "mission" will be, what you want your airplane to be, what questions to ask, etc...

diamond said:

Thanks for sharing. How tough was that to climb back in and finish your PPL after that experience? Did you have any thoughts of throwing in the towel?

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It was tough, especially since it took 3 months to sort everything out and get back in the air with a new instructor, but even the guy from the FAA who came out to the crash site encouraged me to get back in the air asap. I never really considered not continuing, perhaps since I had proven that flying the plane until it stops works!

comfortcat said:

Wow!

I love this list because so many folks on it, "Get It".

Building and Flying are really two different things. It is good advice to separate them. Try the flying first. If that does not work out, try restoring an antique car. Sounds like you are a doctor? Mid-50's Chevrolet or early Mustangs are a good choice for you. If you are a dentist, stick to motorcycles.

Not every one can build a plane, or fly them. Not everyone can be a doctor, or a welder, or a security guard or a statistician. Each has risks, for both the person and those around them. You balance risk in your life because life is risky. Even getting out of bed is risky.

For me, I can not build an experimental aircraft. But I CAN assemble a kit that is "Owner Assembled". I choose a Van's RV-9A because thousands have gone before me. I believe in "Cessna Safe" and my T-Shirt says: "RV-9A - The call of the Mild."

Dkb

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Hmmm... I can certainly visualize the person who loves to fly, but doesn't like to build. But are there many folks who love to build planes, but don't like to fly them? If so, do they build planes and then immediately sell them?

diamond said:

But are there many folks who love to build planes, but don't like to fly them? If so, do they build planes and then immediately sell them?

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Yes...and Yes! Some of them can be identified as MULTIPLE repeat offenders!

And some folks like to build and like to fly that they just keep doing both....

All things have risk. When you look at RV accidents, most are due to foolish pilot tricks....period.

In the US, there are approximately 40,000 deaths on the roads with around 8 million accidents each year. I heard on the news yesterday that there were 6,000 deaths and 500,00 accidents attributed to cell phone distraction each year. Two days ago my daughter totalled a Volvo will texting. Minor bruises but had I gotten hold of her then it would have included a severe butt whipping!! (figure of speech, don't take literally).

Bottom line, flying has it's risk but if you review the accident reports, the majority were not due to mechanical problems but due to pilot issues.

Listen to the other post and you'll find one common thread.....learn to fly from a competent teacher. Fly safe and use your head for something other than a hat rack. Stay within the confines of your competence and training and you'll live to become an old pilot. The expression of there are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old and bold pilots didn't come out of nowhere.

As a last note, compared to the spam cans I used to rent, my RV is so far out ahead that there is no comparison. All systems work, it is properly care for, and I take care of it. The airport where I keep mine, the line guys will fly with me in a nanosecond. They won't fly on the birds kept parked on the ramp. Hmmmm, do they know something I don't.

Less than perfect construction...

Shockwave said:

What does something like this look like? The only thing that comes to mind would be edge distance violations.

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I visited a builder who was at the finishing stage of his RV kit. What got my attention was the bench grinder and the 7-inch Scotchbrite wheel. The wheel had never been used. ALL the aluminum skins still had the rough edges that came out of the CNC machine at Van's. Not one edge was deburred. I would also presume that none of the edges of the ribs were deburred unless done by hand using a Scotchbrite pad, or a smaller drill-installed Scotchbrite wheel. That airplane will probably suffer stress cracks in the skins due to engine vibrations.

I opened his builder's manual from Van's and pointed out the page discussing deburring aluminum parts. This was a case of a builder not getting any assistance from EAA counselors, etc. I picked up a piece of the scrap aluminum sent in all Van's kits used to make some small parts. I had him rub his finger along the rough edge of the aluminum sheet. I used a Scotchbrite pad on that edge, then had him check the smooth edge that resulted.