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Chandelle Entry Speed? (commercial manuevers)

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
I searched 'Chandelle' in the forums and found Rick using 120-125kts for his in an RV-7A. Practicing for the commercial check ride.

Can I get some data points on what others are using as an entry speed? I'll use Rick's speed in my RV-6 if nobody has any additional data.

Screen grab of the manuever:

IMG_0546-X2.jpg

v/r,dr
 
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In the typical (172) training aircraft full power is used, as this is a "maximum performance maneuver". In an RV, choose a power setting so the airspeed slowly decreases throughout the maneuver, ending just above stall speed. If this results in an excessively high nose up attitude, use less power.
 
Um...

The procedure for a Chandelle is detailed in the post above.

You begin the maneuver at Va, the maneuvering speed of the aircraft, Step#3

Full power is applied as speed begins to decrease, Step #6

Chandelles in a 172 are done exactly the same way, at Va maneuvering speed, not full power. Full power is added as the speed begins to decrease, Step #6

Using LESS power just because it is an RV, defeats the purpose and definition of the Chandelle...as you said, it is a MAXIMUM performance maneuver.
 
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Can a Cessna 172 even *reach* maneuvering speed?

OK... OK... maybe with the power on in a dive!
 
Doug: I practice them at cruise speed. I thought the whole point of a Chandelle was to get you out of a suddenly dicey situation such as flying into a box canyon. It's meant to get you turned around 180 degrees with maximum altitude gained. I usually gain 1,000 ft if not more with the maneuver. I'm not practicing for a commercial ticket but figure it's a good maneuver to know.

Chris
 
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Rating

If you are practicing for the rating, you need to do it as described...at least if you want to get signed off and pass the ride.

As far as the comment about a 172 reaching maneuvering speed...I hope you were joking, otherwise, you need to review what maneuvering speed actually is.

The maneuvering speed for a mid 70's C-172 at a mid weight is around 85 knots, so getting to it is not a problem.
 
I suggest you use the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, H-8083-3, as a reference for the commercial maneuvers. Chapter 9 describes the performance maneuvers. A check airman should use this handbook as a reference.
 
All spelled out in the ACS. "Establish the appropriate entry configuration, power, and airspeed." Which means, whatever works. Depends on the airplane.

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/commercial_airplane_acs.pdf

If you are doing the maneuvers in an RV then you want to start them somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-120kts to avoid an excessive climb, and not go full power.

As long as you are talking thru the entry and call out the speed and power settings as you enter the maneuver, the DPE shouldn't have any issues with whatever speed you choose.

In my 150 I start at normal cruise speed which is around 90kts, and full throttle during the entry.
 
which...

Which is incorrect.

The maneuver is a MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE maneuver.

It is spelled out quite clearly that the entry speed is Va, maneuvering speed, no higher.

It is also spelled out quite clearly, that power is added as airspeed decreases to maximum power. Using less than maximum power throughout the climb defeats the purpose of the maneuver, which is a maximum performance climbing turn.

Talking through the maneuver is a double edged sword. IF you are describing the maneuver correctly and attempting to fly it that way, it can help...however...if you are describing it incorrectly, it makes the mistake stand out like a red flag...
 
I took my commercial check ride in a Colemill 310. If done as rocketman describes, it is a very dangerous maneuver if an engine fails as the extreme pitch angle and slow speed would certainly lead to very bad results. We went to the examiner and explained the problem and he had no issue with doing exactly as rocketbob explains.
Just ask the DPE what is acceptable—
As the first sentence in Doug’s quoted description states, it is now a planning, orientation, coordination, and timing exercise.
 
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and...

...and that would be the exception to the rule. Most people don't do their commercial ride in a Colemill 310. Great airplane though!

...and asking the DPE what he/she considers acceptable is never a bad thing.
 
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The commercial ACS spells out the rules and parameters, very specifically, for the checkride maneuvers. Nowhere does it state chandelles are started at Va.
 
The ACS says...

The ACS says appropriate, yes...however...

Referencing the appropriate additional FAA resources, as ALL good instructors should:

From the official FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook", Chapter 9:

Where it specifically states entry at Va, maneuvering speed...yes, you will target the "manufacturers recommended speed"...however...Va is selected for a good reason. That is another discussion.

Screen%20Shot%202018-10-01%20at%202.42.30%20PM_zpsznoabo09.png
 
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My Two Cents Worth

Well yes, if dong it for a commercial check ride, of course it should be practiced, explained and performed by the book. If using the maneuver to get out of a box canyon, depending on the winds, less speed will provide more room and a shorter turning radius to get out of the canyon. It makes sense to apply full power and significant up elevator AFTER one gets the nose turned away from the initial direction of flight.

Flying from my computer in Hong Kong after being censored in the PRC...
 
I suspect that the ACS saying "appropriate" speed means that the entry speed chosen is part of what the examiner is evaluating. The DPE is expecting Va entry, if the applicant started from Vx or dove to achieve Vne prior to starting the maneuver, then the applicant did not chose the appropriate speed. Best to ask the DPE before the flight if you have a plan to use a different speed.
 
A chandelle doesn't really appear to be a maximum performance maneuver at all.. I believe it's just a practice to demonstrate coordination and mastery of the aircraft that you are flying. I've always heard that it's a "maximum performance" maneuver used to get out of a box canyon, and yes Wikipedia calls it that, but that doesn't make it true. They're are much better ways to perform a minimum radius turn, or max performance, course reversal, climbing turn. A Chandelle is just a maneuver to prove you can make the plane do what you want, in a smooth coordinated way.
 
I took my commercial check ride in a Colemill 310. If done as rocketman describes, it is a very dangerous maneuver if an engine fails as the extreme pitch angle and slow speed would certainly lead to very bad results. We went to the examiner and explained the problem and he had no issue with doing exactly as rocketbob explains.
Just ask the DPE what is acceptable—
As the first sentence in Doug’s quoted description states, it is now a planning, orientation, coordination, and timing exercise.

I wouldn't think a Colmill 310 to be the ideal plane for these maneuvers, but I also wouldn't classify doing it as a "very dangerous" maneuver. Sure hanging on the stall speed, well under red line in a high performance twin that is not approved for spins has an element of risk, maybe "slightly dangerous" but if an engine fails, you pull both engines back to idle and recover before it spins.
 
different understanding

i think, maximum performance maneuver doesn´t mean any specific or defined limits. it means to get the maximum output from the situation you are in without exceeding the A/C limits.

The Chandelle, as far as i am concerned, evolved from the early, early fighter days when a plane had two wings on top of each other (Biplane) or maybe even 3. There all where underpowered, not capable of sustained inverted flight, had a lot of drag, and were certainly no speed queens to play with kinetic energy out of level flight.

The chandelle´s aim is to end up on opposite direction with minimum lateral room used (turning radius) and maximum altitude gained, without breaking the aircraft or falling out of the sky (stall).

The pilots used it when a opponent was turning in on them from above and behind, gaining speed and energy. It was an evasive maneuver to keep the other guy insight, change your kinetic energy (speed) in potential energy (altitude), let the opponent pass below, and in opposite direction to you, wing over to get behind him…….he would probably do the same.....then you would do it again,......and again…….and there you have early days dogfight.

What i am trying to say is that it is a "seat of your pants" maneuver and you may start it out of any airspeed you want! Just get maximum performance out of the aircraft in the current situation without exceeding its limits.

Of Course, the FAA, EASA, whoever,...ACS....DPE.....have to declare limits of the maneuver to be able to judge it. The limits probably are caused by the definition of aerobatic flights, which are 60 degree of bank and 30 degree of pitch, if i remember correctly. Which, in a commercial checkride, are most probably not to be exceeded.
Therefore, i think the best thing is to talk to your examiner before the checkride what he wants., like a couple of guys already suggested.

If i introduce the Chandelle to a student, it is easier to give him those key-figures in the beginning as well, not to overload him/her right from the start.

But it is, and in my opinion will always remain, a "seat of your pants" maneuver.

Box Canyon food for thought.

How much bank and pitch are used depends on the entry parameters.
If you are fast enough (RV´s usually are in cruise flight), and you notice early enough that you have to turn around, the minimum turning radius will be an half loop, half roll (Immelmann) or a half cuban eight.

If you notice to late and no more have the energy in the plane for a Immelmann or half cuban eight, then you want MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE out of your situation and do a chandelle. And just there, there is no declared FAA, EASA, ACS, DPE,POH speed you have to have when you enter. There is no maximum bank or pitch angle not to exceed (or minimum you have to have).
There is you, and you have to make it out alive without stalling the aircraft or breaking it apart.

And the "seat of your pants" / feeling will get you out of there, nothing else.

So far to my understanding of max performance.
 
Doug- Trying to get up out of the weeds here;

Every examiner I've worked with over the years has expected a Chandelle to be entered at or below maneuvering speed.

Most of them were also happy if it ended with the stall horn going off at the end when it was pointed the other way, but there is some room for interpretation on that end of the maneuver.
 
You all know this thread was just resurrected from 2018, right? Doug already has his commercial certificate, so I'm sure he's not looking anymore for info on chandelle entry speeds.
 
You all know this thread was just resurrected from 2018, right? Doug already has his commercial certificate, so I'm sure he's not looking anymore for info on chandelle entry speeds.

Haha yes I was thinking the same thing... nevertheless I aspire to commercial in my RV so I'm glad this thread popped back to the surface.

As for the chandelle being either a maximum performance or box canyon escape turn -- not so much, at least according to this recent article in AOPA https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/september/pilot/technique-performing-a-chandelle


[ed. LOL! I can't remember what I had for breakfast, much less chandelle speeds from years ago <grin>. v/r,dr]
 
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Haha yes I was thinking the same thing... nevertheless I aspire to commercial in my RV so I'm glad this thread popped back to the surface.

As for the chandelle being either a maximum performance or box canyon escape turn -- not so much, at least according to this recent article in AOPA https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/september/pilot/technique-performing-a-chandelle


[ed. LOL! I can't remember what I had for breakfast, much less chandelle speeds from years ago <grin>. v/r,dr]

I know a DPE who will blow a gasket if you talk about the Chandelle as a box-canyon escape maneuver....because he wants to know what the heck you were doing in one to begin with....
 
A chandelle doesn't really appear to be a maximum performance maneuver at all.. I believe it's just a practice to demonstrate coordination and mastery of the aircraft that you are flying. I've always heard that it's a "maximum performance" maneuver used to get out of a box canyon, and yes Wikipedia calls it that, but that doesn't make it true. They're are much better ways to perform a minimum radius turn, or max performance, course reversal, climbing turn. A Chandelle is just a maneuver to prove you can make the plane do what you want, in a smooth coordinated way.

It may be a maximum performance for a trainer (Cessna 150/172) to demonstrate a coordinate bank in a climb but on our planes it's something we do daily :D
 
I used 12-15 inches...

I took the commercial in my RV and used 12-15 inches for various commercial maneuvers to comfortably execute them within expected standards.
 
Getting ready to do the commercial in the RV-10 and was just getting started thinking about this.

Just a side note, the bottom of page A-18 in the Commercial PTS states...

High Performance Aircraft Considerations
In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have to be reduced below the ACS guidelines power setting to prevent excessively high pitch attitudes greater than 30° nose up.
 
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