Van's Air Force
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Skyview in flight failure
- Thread starter Top Cat
- Start date
There are lots of bad internet stories about Garmin units and Garmin customer support. And lots of people who love their SV. There is no perfect company or box. They are all designed and serviced (and purchased, installed and operated) by humans.
Received my repaired Skyview Touch back from Dynon last Friday. Got it installed over the weekend, but did not get a chance to fly until last Tuesday. That flight went well. This morning I fired up to engine and was waiting for the oil to warm up when the Skyview rolled over and died again. Same symptoms as last time.
I called Dynon this afternoon and sent them the diagnostic files. It cost me almost $150 to return the unit last time (2day shipping and insurance). I'm not looking forward to spending that kind of money again for something that was not fixed the first time. Perhaps they will have mercy on me. We shall see.
Alex
I called Dynon this afternoon and sent them the diagnostic files. It cost me almost $150 to return the unit last time (2day shipping and insurance). I'm not looking forward to spending that kind of money again for something that was not fixed the first time. Perhaps they will have mercy on me. We shall see.
Alex
david.perl
Well Known Member
second skyview now needs returning
Last year during bench testing my first 10 inch screen had to be sent back from the UK for repair.
Today i sent over an error 5 fault code that came up on the second display and ive been informed the unit needs to go back as it has a memory issue. So another $150 for the privilege to send the unit back from the UK to the USA plus a delay in the commencing test flying.
Why the manufacturers of these faulty units do not cover ALL the transportation costs i do not know. To me this is bad after sales support.
The Garmin sales guy warned me Dynon QC is not up to theirs. I'm beginning to believe him and wish i fitted a Garmin system
And 10 days turnaround in my book is unacceptably slow.
Think i must be unlucky as I just re-installed a faulty VPX today that had to be shipped back with a faulty flap module.
Next time (if there is one) it will be back to steam and CB's
Last year during bench testing my first 10 inch screen had to be sent back from the UK for repair.
Today i sent over an error 5 fault code that came up on the second display and ive been informed the unit needs to go back as it has a memory issue. So another $150 for the privilege to send the unit back from the UK to the USA plus a delay in the commencing test flying.
Why the manufacturers of these faulty units do not cover ALL the transportation costs i do not know. To me this is bad after sales support.
The Garmin sales guy warned me Dynon QC is not up to theirs. I'm beginning to believe him and wish i fitted a Garmin system
And 10 days turnaround in my book is unacceptably slow.
Think i must be unlucky as I just re-installed a faulty VPX today that had to be shipped back with a faulty flap module.
Next time (if there is one) it will be back to steam and CB's
FasGlas
Well Known Member
Don't kid yourself with Garmin's service. They have set repair prices no matter what's wrong with it, ex; GNS 430 flat fee is $1100 + shipping + avionics shop $ premium because ONLY a Garmin shop can return a Garmin radio, NOT the owner. So, if you have a bad battery in your 430 expect a $1400 bill.
I'm sure the Garmin sales guy didn't bother to tell you this.
I'm sure the Garmin sales guy didn't bother to tell you this.
Hi David,
If the "memory" issue is with the Solid State Disk (SSD), I believe its a known problem in a certain range of Skyview serial numbers. Given that is true, and you will have to call and verify, perhaps Dynon would pick up the shipping cost for you. Never hurts to ask!
After Dynon replaced my defective SSD, I had a subsequent failure. It turned out to be corrupted data copied back to the new SSD. With Dynons help, the fix was prompt and painless. No more issues at all.
Anyway, I was impressed with the Dynon support's desire to make things right for me. I have been very happy since the original issues have been resolved. Give them another call, ask for a manager, and see how the converstaion goes.
Alex
If the "memory" issue is with the Solid State Disk (SSD), I believe its a known problem in a certain range of Skyview serial numbers. Given that is true, and you will have to call and verify, perhaps Dynon would pick up the shipping cost for you. Never hurts to ask!
After Dynon replaced my defective SSD, I had a subsequent failure. It turned out to be corrupted data copied back to the new SSD. With Dynons help, the fix was prompt and painless. No more issues at all.
Anyway, I was impressed with the Dynon support's desire to make things right for me. I have been very happy since the original issues have been resolved. Give them another call, ask for a manager, and see how the converstaion goes.
Alex
david.perl
Well Known Member
thxs Alex. ill give it a shot.
Any product defect should be covered for return shipping IMHO.
Any product defect should be covered for return shipping IMHO.
David, who did you buy your SV through? Bought in the UK or sourced from abroad?
We bought our system from the UK dealer, Harry Mendelssohn. A couple of times we've sent stuff back to Dynon and simply ship it to HM and they ship onwards to Dynon FOC and it's the same on the way back. Excellent service from both HM and Dynon IMHO.
Even with new certified aircraft under warranty the customer normally pays for shipping of replacement (FOC warranty) parts.
Don't believe the Garmin sales talk. We deal with many systems in the day job (including the big G with their fixed price repairs) and from what I have seen, Dynon support is second to none in general aviation.
We bought our system from the UK dealer, Harry Mendelssohn. A couple of times we've sent stuff back to Dynon and simply ship it to HM and they ship onwards to Dynon FOC and it's the same on the way back. Excellent service from both HM and Dynon IMHO.
Even with new certified aircraft under warranty the customer normally pays for shipping of replacement (FOC warranty) parts.
Don't believe the Garmin sales talk. We deal with many systems in the day job (including the big G with their fixed price repairs) and from what I have seen, Dynon support is second to none in general aviation.
david.perl
Well Known Member
Just to update that Dynon took excellent care of me and we got things sorted. Also had a recurring issue with the AP/trim module the day before the test flight which Mendelssohn (Dynon's UK agent) were fantastic with sorting out along with Dynon's input.
Aircraft has been flying for 8 hours now and i love the SV system. Ive yet to activate the AP system.
Aircraft has been flying for 8 hours now and i love the SV system. Ive yet to activate the AP system.
dave4754
Well Known Member
Very concerning news
I am about to order Dynon Skyview touch as i have installed their servos for pitch and roll in autopilot.
Perhaps another rethink, Garmin builds the best avionics just so expensive but my comparison for my package was only about 1500 more for Garmin than Dynon....... anybody want some Dynon servos? LOL
Thanks for your thread i will keep an eye on it for more news
I am about to order Dynon Skyview touch as i have installed their servos for pitch and roll in autopilot.
Perhaps another rethink, Garmin builds the best avionics just so expensive but my comparison for my package was only about 1500 more for Garmin than Dynon....... anybody want some Dynon servos? LOL
Thanks for your thread i will keep an eye on it for more news
Phantom30
Well Known Member
I just went through the same decision.....was fun pulling my Dynon servos and installing the Garmin stuff. The thing that really sealed the deal was I had stopped by Van's where they have both the Garmin and Skyview units side by side...it was very sunny and I had my sun glasses (that I would fly with); the Skyview screen looked washed out....the Garmin was beautiful. Enough said....
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Bumping this old thread back up...
On a long XC far from home today, and my 10" SV system locked up/froze while in a long, slow, bumpy 180 degree turn. The SV is my primary and sole source of essential flight data...IAS, altitude, etc.
Fortunately, my iPad with ForeFlight was up and running, and so we were able to get on the ground with no issues, but was very unhappy about the failure and that there was NO way inflight to get this thing to completely reboot.
YES, I have the backup battery, and was unable to separate the connector inflight to kill the display completely to allow it a reboot back from the dead. All the BU battery did was keep it running in its inop mode until I got it on the ground and was able to crawl under the panel and unplug it.
Once I did that, and it re-booted, it worked normally on the ground.
I am emailing Dynon tech support, but was just wondering if anyone else is having any recent problems with these units. It sounds like there was a batch shipped with bad memory, and I may have a unit whose age may put me in that group.
Not a happy camper on this failure, for sure.
Thanks for any gouge,
Rob
On a long XC far from home today, and my 10" SV system locked up/froze while in a long, slow, bumpy 180 degree turn. The SV is my primary and sole source of essential flight data...IAS, altitude, etc.
Fortunately, my iPad with ForeFlight was up and running, and so we were able to get on the ground with no issues, but was very unhappy about the failure and that there was NO way inflight to get this thing to completely reboot.
YES, I have the backup battery, and was unable to separate the connector inflight to kill the display completely to allow it a reboot back from the dead. All the BU battery did was keep it running in its inop mode until I got it on the ground and was able to crawl under the panel and unplug it.
Once I did that, and it re-booted, it worked normally on the ground.
I am emailing Dynon tech support, but was just wondering if anyone else is having any recent problems with these units. It sounds like there was a batch shipped with bad memory, and I may have a unit whose age may put me in that group.
Not a happy camper on this failure, for sure.
Thanks for any gouge,
Rob
ColoRv
Well Known Member
Complete nonsense and utterly false. It's funny how every time a Dynon fails and leaves its owner high and dry someone has to invent some horror story about Garmin. Shills abound.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I have been flying an acquaintance's SLSA with G3X touch. When it works it's great, but he has had some EIS issues. To be fair they were sensor and ground issues, but I have been running my D180 for about 465 hours and four years with only an EGT sensor failure.
Since I don't have the Skyview I'm not sure, but I think they include a lifetime chart subscription. The Garmin updates can be pricey. Based on my limited experience with Garmin (about 40 hours) and my satisfaction with the D180 I would be inclined to go with Dynon if I had to choose.
Since I don't have the Skyview I'm not sure, but I think they include a lifetime chart subscription. The Garmin updates can be pricey. Based on my limited experience with Garmin (about 40 hours) and my satisfaction with the D180 I would be inclined to go with Dynon if I had to choose.
DHeal
Well Known Member
Rob --
Did you try an in-flight reboot using the 1-2-5 buttons? Are you using Dynon's latest software update? Your issue sounds a lot like the problems many of us faced a couple of months ago -- do a s SEARCH on the RV-12 portion of this site. These problems have apparently been resolved through Dynon's latest software updates.
-- David
Did you try an in-flight reboot using the 1-2-5 buttons? Are you using Dynon's latest software update? Your issue sounds a lot like the problems many of us faced a couple of months ago -- do a s SEARCH on the RV-12 portion of this site. These problems have apparently been resolved through Dynon's latest software updates.
-- David
In_Flight Failure x3 Today
I did the Van's 14.x.x.x install after a number of failed tries. Turns out I had to load from one of the rear USB ports to get it right. Finally all's well until today. Tried to do a 'Direct To' input from 'recent' menu, and the screen froze. It auto re-boots in what seemed an eternity, and I tried again, with the same result, and again one more time. Freeze all three times. Got a "System Event 3" notice, and then a "Battery Test Needed" which is premature by 6 months. The rest of the flight was uneventful. I did the download and will forward to Dynon. After the download, the battery test disappeared.
I did the Van's 14.x.x.x install after a number of failed tries. Turns out I had to load from one of the rear USB ports to get it right. Finally all's well until today. Tried to do a 'Direct To' input from 'recent' menu, and the screen froze. It auto re-boots in what seemed an eternity, and I tried again, with the same result, and again one more time. Freeze all three times. Got a "System Event 3" notice, and then a "Battery Test Needed" which is premature by 6 months. The rest of the flight was uneventful. I did the download and will forward to Dynon. After the download, the battery test disappeared.
Exact same thing happened to me today
The exact same thing happened to me today, and I am scheduled for my Practical Thursday.....hope there is a quick fix
The exact same thing happened to me today, and I am scheduled for my Practical Thursday.....hope there is a quick fix
Phantom30
Well Known Member
Hi David,
Have been out touring South Dakota's Black Hills today, sorry for the late reply.
My post was added to the RV-12 thread of which you speak, thanks.
I had forgotten about the inflight reboot option until reading your post. Did try to get into the setup menu, but no joy. Will keep the 1-2-5 option in my memory in case of a repeat on the way home.
I am running the latest version of SV's software, so if any software patches were needed, they should have been installed when I did the update.
Waiting to hear from Dynon after they get in from the holiday weekend.
Rob
Hi Rob - Sorry for the trouble here. I'm not sure if you've already reached our support team, but if not, We'd love to get a diagnostic log from you to see what's going on here. Instructions for grabbing it and submitting it are at dynon.aero/reportlog. In the message area, include a link to this thread and your username so that we can link link it up once we have it.
Second, do double-check the exact version of your software and ensure it's 14.2.1. We had a bug in the earlier versions of 14 that could cause the symptoms that you're seeing. It could be that you're seeing something different though if you're already at 14.2.1.
We think there may indeed be a bug that has to do with doing a direct-to from the recent list (someone else also found it over the weekend). We're investigating.
So actually, we're not entirely sure this is a bug. Can you send us a diagnostic log via www.dynon.aero/reportlog? Make sure to include a link to this thread and who you are.
Thanks!
Actually, Mike H contacted me today by email and we are working on a solution. One of the problems getting answers is we're on vacation and I don't have immediate access to the airplane to troubleshoot, etc. I can't tell you off the top of my head which update I have, but I am pretty religious about keeping the system updated.
Have explained that all to Mike. Sounds like I'm affected by the relevant service bulletin, however. So...we are going to get home VFR best as we can and deal with the fix when we get there. Will be glad to send the diagnostic file when I'm able to get the aircraft back to Texas, which with all the weather we're having, is part of the problem.
Thanks for responding, and I'll update when we get a fix rolling.
Rob
Got Home Ok...
Did some troubleshooting today, and I found I did NOT have the very latest update.
Nor did I have one of the circuit boards affected by the service bulletin.
So, I'm kind of stumped on what caused my problem.
Another problem, I wasn't able to download the diagnostic file before it was overwritten with 5+ hours of flying time on the way back home.
It is still troubling that a failure causes a complete loss of essential flight info.
There should be some kind of "degraded" or "basic" mode it can go into when it senses an error...it shouldn't just surprise you by rolling over and going Tango Uniform and need a reboot.
That could be really ugly a hundred above DH on a down to mins ILS....
RS
Did some troubleshooting today, and I found I did NOT have the very latest update.
Nor did I have one of the circuit boards affected by the service bulletin.
So, I'm kind of stumped on what caused my problem.
Another problem, I wasn't able to download the diagnostic file before it was overwritten with 5+ hours of flying time on the way back home.
It is still troubling that a failure causes a complete loss of essential flight info.
There should be some kind of "degraded" or "basic" mode it can go into when it senses an error...it shouldn't just surprise you by rolling over and going Tango Uniform and need a reboot.
That could be really ugly a hundred above DH on a down to mins ILS....
RS
Dynon stated in post 72, "We had a bug in the earlier versions of 14 that could cause the symptoms that you're seeing."
Since your Skyview has the earlier version, that is the cause of the problem.
Some type of independent backup instrument could be a lifesaver, especially in IFR conditions.
Since your Skyview has the earlier version, that is the cause of the problem.
Some type of independent backup instrument could be a lifesaver, especially in IFR conditions.
I think every single EFIS manufacturer in business today strongly recommends some level of fully independent back-up instrumentation if you are using this equipment for IFR flight.
Even if they didn't, it just makes sense.....
WingedFrog
Well Known Member
Once the first bug has been found in a complex software you have the proof it is not bug free: This is as far as the software industry, has gone over 70 years regarding producing bug free software. Dynon is not alone! In our case, depending on Dynon Skyview to fly in VFR weather, I would not recommend relying on a degraded mode for dealing with a version of software which integrity is already in doubt. You have a cheap solution though to be able to get back on the ground in case of total failure of the Skyview in flight: have a tablet as back-up at least for the GPS. This tablet can run a free GPS tracking software like Flight Plan (which allows in addition to do your flight planning and filing). If you are familiar with your plane I don't think a back-up EFIS is necessary in VFR conditions and if you have doubts just test yourself, it's easy to do!
My personal back up for a failed EFIS in an RV-12 is........
Look out the window........
Look out the window........
Good Discussion...
Howdy Gang,
Good comments by all.
First off, I acknowledge that while I thought I had the latest software version (and am usually pretty diligent about this) in fact, I didn't. My bad there.
And, I also acknowledge that were I to be flying hard IFR in my -7 (I don't, as it's not equipped to my standards for it) backup system(s) would need to be in place.
At this time, they aren't.
I had considered making the SV system the foundation for taking this aircraft to an IFR level, but have to admit I'm reconsidering things.
The reason is because the particular failure in my case and the insidiousness of the way it failed. Freezing, with no annunciations/warnings/cautions.
Loss of Control after instrument failure has become a huge area of concern in the other world I operate in (commercial aviation) after several, very tragic, hull losses with complete loss of life. So much so, that many flight manuals have been modified to have Immediate Action steps for this situation, and air carriers are devoting a significant amount of sim time to the training programs involving recognition and recovery.
Having had a number of sim scenarios with this kind of problem presented, just doing the determination process of deciding I really have a problem and then determining which instruments I can believe can consume a lot of time. Add other distractions (alerts/turbulence/unusual attitude) and it can be more than one person can handle.
A frozen display with no annunciations is a particularly nasty problem, for some obvious reasons. You go from thinking everything is "dialed in" or "wired"...to trying to recognize, than recover from an unusual attitude, in IFR, close to the ground.
Not easy, and not good.
That's why I comment that the system should have a way of self-monitoring these type of faults, AND, at least "step out of the way" when one happens by annunciating something...cautions/warnings/whatever.
Just a big red "X" across the display would be sufficient. Something to cue you in that the data displayed isn't valid anymore.
All this is NOT to say I'm unhappy with my Skyview system, because I'm not. In many ways, it far exceeds the capabilities of the EFIS system I'm flying behind in my day job.
But, there are definitely some big differences between the commercial-rated vs experimental-rated avionics, a lesson that I'm re-learning as I walk through this.
Thanks to all for their input and observations.
Fly Safe,
Rob
Howdy Gang,
Good comments by all.
First off, I acknowledge that while I thought I had the latest software version (and am usually pretty diligent about this) in fact, I didn't. My bad there.
And, I also acknowledge that were I to be flying hard IFR in my -7 (I don't, as it's not equipped to my standards for it) backup system(s) would need to be in place.
At this time, they aren't.
I had considered making the SV system the foundation for taking this aircraft to an IFR level, but have to admit I'm reconsidering things.
The reason is because the particular failure in my case and the insidiousness of the way it failed. Freezing, with no annunciations/warnings/cautions.
Loss of Control after instrument failure has become a huge area of concern in the other world I operate in (commercial aviation) after several, very tragic, hull losses with complete loss of life. So much so, that many flight manuals have been modified to have Immediate Action steps for this situation, and air carriers are devoting a significant amount of sim time to the training programs involving recognition and recovery.
Having had a number of sim scenarios with this kind of problem presented, just doing the determination process of deciding I really have a problem and then determining which instruments I can believe can consume a lot of time. Add other distractions (alerts/turbulence/unusual attitude) and it can be more than one person can handle.
A frozen display with no annunciations is a particularly nasty problem, for some obvious reasons. You go from thinking everything is "dialed in" or "wired"...to trying to recognize, than recover from an unusual attitude, in IFR, close to the ground.
Not easy, and not good.
That's why I comment that the system should have a way of self-monitoring these type of faults, AND, at least "step out of the way" when one happens by annunciating something...cautions/warnings/whatever.
Just a big red "X" across the display would be sufficient. Something to cue you in that the data displayed isn't valid anymore.
All this is NOT to say I'm unhappy with my Skyview system, because I'm not. In many ways, it far exceeds the capabilities of the EFIS system I'm flying behind in my day job.
But, there are definitely some big differences between the commercial-rated vs experimental-rated avionics, a lesson that I'm re-learning as I walk through this.
Thanks to all for their input and observations.
Fly Safe,
Rob
These kinds of systems usually have hardware-level watchdogs that reboot the software if things aren't running right.
Yours it would seem, worked at first (the first few reboots you noticed), but the failure mode was persistent ... would suggest a hardware issue I would think, not software ... or an error condition (Bad data on the bus?) that persisted and the system wasn't handling correctly.
The EFIS system you have at your day job is developed to incredibly exacting standards ... and comes along with a price to match. Dynon (and others like them) do follow some of those standards, but you can only go so far all the while trying to maintain the right price point ...
It is hard to know who sells the hardware/software that you think might best meet your standards, because they won't usually tell you what the architecture is (and even if they told you, you'd have to know how to interpret that, which would be tough for someone without some degree of expertise and skills in that world).
MGL is somewhat more open with their design and architecture ... they publish their CAN-Bus specs for instance ... but again, doesn't mean much.
You could try to mine the VAF archives to see whether a particular EFIS shows up more/less often in terms of complaints regarding technical issues in flight!
Yours it would seem, worked at first (the first few reboots you noticed), but the failure mode was persistent ... would suggest a hardware issue I would think, not software ... or an error condition (Bad data on the bus?) that persisted and the system wasn't handling correctly.
The EFIS system you have at your day job is developed to incredibly exacting standards ... and comes along with a price to match. Dynon (and others like them) do follow some of those standards, but you can only go so far all the while trying to maintain the right price point ...
It is hard to know who sells the hardware/software that you think might best meet your standards, because they won't usually tell you what the architecture is (and even if they told you, you'd have to know how to interpret that, which would be tough for someone without some degree of expertise and skills in that world).
MGL is somewhat more open with their design and architecture ... they publish their CAN-Bus specs for instance ... but again, doesn't mean much.
You could try to mine the VAF archives to see whether a particular EFIS shows up more/less often in terms of complaints regarding technical issues in flight!
JF,
Good points, all, and I agree with you.
Finding the right balance on price vs performance is the tightrope these manufacturers have to walk, and Dynon delivers a huge amount of bang for the buck, no question there.
But, when issues crop up, the way info is disseminated about the problem seems to be somewhat questionable in the experimental community, frankly.
Maybe I'm just being high maintenance, but with this type of failure mode I would have expected some kind of "push" notification from Dynon about it. An email, or something similar. I made sure Dynon had my contact info after I bought the aircraft, and I get their newsletters, etc. I'm in the database already! Seems it would be easy to give folks a heads up, and I think it's expected in today's business climate.
Is it on me to check for updates? Sure!
But...life can happen, and it may not always be possible to do so. What then?
It mirrors my gripe about the way the latest service bulletin from Van's was issued-just posted up on their website, on a Friday to boot. I believe the seriousness of action to be taken (no fly if cracks discovered) warranted more of a response from Van's than that.
That doesn't take away that Van's makes a good product that I love using.
But, safety-sensitive info needs to rapidly be put into the end-users hands by the best method possible-that just seems like good business to me.
So..I guess I don't get it.
Thanks for chiming in,
Rob
GalinHdz
Well Known Member
Hence the reasoning behind having two completely independent backup systems for your primary flight instruments. No piece of equipment built or designed by a human will ever be 100% infallible. With electronic instruments it is preferable to have at least one of them from a different manufacturer. But, everybody's risk tolerance level is different.
The same discussion was had elsewhere on VAF regarding Van's latest SB regarding cracks with an aileron hinge, or something to that effect. Apparently the dissemination was not really done as some would've liked.
I certainly agree with you ... any kind of bug, issue/SB/SL/AD-like documents, etc. should be pro-actively disseminated. Many vendors have a DB of contacts to reach out to. Communicating about safety is an essential good practice ... that many don't follow. If you ever get a vendor to explain to you why they behave this way, and why they won't tell their user base why they behave this way, please share it with us ... I'm as baffled as you are. My best suspicion is something along the lines of liability concerns ...
I certainly agree with you ... any kind of bug, issue/SB/SL/AD-like documents, etc. should be pro-actively disseminated. Many vendors have a DB of contacts to reach out to. Communicating about safety is an essential good practice ... that many don't follow. If you ever get a vendor to explain to you why they behave this way, and why they won't tell their user base why they behave this way, please share it with us ... I'm as baffled as you are. My best suspicion is something along the lines of liability concerns ...
