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Scratch marks on shop head

TASEsq

TASEsq

Well Known Member
Patron
Hi,

I am working on the toolbox practice kit, and I saw on a Cleveland builder hangout talking about flat sets used in a squeezer. They recommended scratching the die used on the shop head on the concrete floor to help it have some roughness and help it from sliding off / tipped rivets. Seemed to work well, however it imparted some scratches onto the shop head!

Does anyone think this is an issue?

ngwHzXuxZIfYlJ2VVfBbnkbCH2G2soFYsLq2ip1UN26oXS8m_LSrbmM2MneAD7Ycf9uTGs1M4KVqORdHDKS3-Peu2DTnXDsoxfhx2tBXqJZua_U4Rc-jenIMJ1OTpKsA6j_dzZ5mWmwJtvEvUGBm5wcWXEEscrwRBY9fwVFDSfEVYrk76m_Yvi6mWmEZafGPfy3hhnmrNw8jVuxCtHV6OLuFG0YUTmAQtKTKQCVBZsdcy5ctWxsBQvmCaNtCb9jNjK1aDpSY5FU1iIHX6M42uE7DdbblXnqjuNjQwvKp3eOXiq0_Z6MJwJUr-ImMPOrxC-Bf94ufrOZ6ZhYZxPyiiVg7lRmffLNvLLviHIZSPUnzMRvGXzKHM5XMl_XxDKmccS573ImAi8O9YSig3VORP1niEf79MWiTzoiCywwInmbaRdxwoQebRhkRMNvk_KGeXgfqPX5EXg9ESZ3Sin2gLvHDfeEAYI_OZPTmtRCtZdt8sf0drT8jA1Gco50WFyqXgMnzvfim2c5wpGcVYMeS5IPqt1W8wiY9dd8JG_1wIuSc5uJwZ5uSvAiT5tzU38Cv6tCIuEy6mVYFDUjDbKcsgrwXStZFn2MafhvoRsM=s800-no
 
Probably not Trent but the problem you may have is if you have a set of thick and thin dies you will be rotating them about from shop head to manufactured head as you work on different areas of your plane. So I would not have scratched the surface at all. The only time you are likely to slip off is if you aren't centred or your not square to the rivet or both resulting in a clinched rivet.
 
Cant see the pic, but I agree probably not. I used some very fine sandpaper (ie 1000grit) to take the shine off mine after several slip-offs in the beginning. That took care of it. If you have the brushed stainless steel look on your dies, Id say that'd be too aggressive for my liking. Just want to dull them up really.
 
I had to do this as well. The issue I had was that no matter what I tried, when using my squeezers, the rivet would tip or clinch. I nearly gave up on squeezers and even considered giving up the build as nobody else seemed to be having the problem. I was driving every rivet. Although I got pretty good with a rivet gun and bucking bar early in the build, a squeezer is faster, quieter, and more consistent.

Cleaveland had me rub the sets two directions on concrete. This put tiny hatch marks in the sets. Problem solved.

If your seeing scratches on the shop heads, your marks may be a bit too deep.
 
Painters tape

Something else that I found helped me. In my original kit, was a roll of rivet tape - clear down the middle so you can see mfg heads and keep them inplace. I used it once and it was slippery as heck and no help. Grabbed some blue painter tape I had onthe shelf instead, and never looked back. It'll grab your die on the mfg side and keep it from slipping. And comes right off. I use it regardless of using the gun or the squeezer; also gives a slight cushion and helps eliminate the halo affect on the mfg side when you drive the rivet. Find it in your local Lowes/HD aviation aisle.
 
Trent, your photo isn't showing up. May be part of google's region-specific URL schemes.
 
maniago said:
Something else that I found helped me. In my original kit, was a roll of rivet tape - clear down the middle so you can see mfg heads and keep them inplace. I used it once and it was slippery as heck and no help. Grabbed some blue painter tape I had onthe shelf instead, and never looked back. It'll grab your die on the mfg side and keep it from slipping. And comes right off. I use it regardless of using the gun or the squeezer; also gives a slight cushion and helps eliminate the halo affect on the mfg side when you drive the rivet. Find it in your local Lowes/HD aviation aisle.
Click to expand...

I found the same thing Mani ! I bought a roll of that expensive riveters tape and used it a couple times. But once I started using plain old, cheap painters tape...it seemed to work out much better. Way less slippage. The only downside I have found is that *sometimes* the painters tape won't come up in one nice peel. Sometimes the tape would get torn from the riveting process and come up in sections.
 
TASEsq said:
Hi,

I am working on the toolbox practice kit, and I saw on a Cleveland builder hangout talking about flat sets used in a squeezer. They recommended scratching the die used on the shop head on the concrete floor to help it have some roughness and help it from sliding off / tipped rivets. Seemed to work well, however it imparted some scratches onto the shop head!

Does anyone think this is an issue?
Click to expand...

Three airplanes and I keep the flush rivet sets polished. I would not consider scratching them up.

For bucked rivets I run the bucking bar face on the stochbrite wheel (the rest of the bucking bar has duct tape - easier to hold and does not scratch up adjacent surfaces). For the flush swivel head rivet set I use clear packing tape. For the round head rivet set I use three layers of masking tape - replaced every third rivet or so. This one trick totally eliminates smilies.

Carl
 
CubedRoot said:
I found the same thing Mani ! I bought a roll of that expensive riveters tape and used it a couple times. But once I started using plain old, cheap painters tape...it seemed to work out much better. Way less slippage. The only downside I have found is that *sometimes* the painters tape won't come up in one nice peel. Sometimes the tape would get torn from the riveting process and come up in sections.
Click to expand...


Try using plain ordinary clear packing tape. Replace as needed.

Dave
 
Hi all,

Thanks for the great replies and good info!! I did feel bad scratching up the nice shiny dies, but you’ve got to try new things to learn I guess!

Re the tape - it sounds like most are using the tape on the mfg side along the rivet line? (Like rivet tape to hold the rivets in?). It’s funny, because I had zero issues keeping one die on he rivet mfg head with my finger - it was the die on the ram, which makes the shop head which would slide off slightly and make a crooked rivet - that’s he one I scratched up.

Here’s a link to a video showing the squeezer action - the fatter die is the one I scratched up. https://photos.app.goo.gl/yBUDCBR9UmmgQVX92

And a link to the photo of the scratches rivets: https://photos.app.goo.gl/c4rjiyMYaaxxZFIt1 (I really thought I had this google Photo linking thing sorted - doh).

Re the tape - could I not just put the painters tape on the die itself instead of the surface? I did this on the mushroom set when bucking the same rivets and it never slipped at all.

How do people recommend removing the scratches in the die now? Scorchbrite wheel to get it started then some very fine sandpaper?

Thanks again for all the replies. This is a shed load of fun (pun intended).
 
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Hi all,

Follow up question on the squeezer...

Is there a rule on whether the fat flat set or the skinny flat set gets used on one side of the rivet or another?

It just made sense to me that the skinny one be used on the mfg side and the fatter one on the ram to do the work and squash the rivet.
 
On your last question; doesn't matter functionally, but access can dictate which goes where. For instance, in the video you just posted, if you had to approach that hinge from the other side, you'd probably need the thicker die on the fixed side of the squeezer.

Tape: I only used tape (regular old Scotch brand 'Magic' tape) on lines of flush head rivets I was driving on a back rivet plate, or occasionally when they were in odd positions & wouldn't stay in place while I positioned the gun. The 'removable' tape is obviously easier to remove, but only slightly better than the standard stuff. I did use the flex head set with the rubber collar whenever there was room.

For universal heads I was setting alone, I used 1/2" wide 'hockey tape' (white cloth adhesive tape) stuck to the dish of the universal set. Adds just a bit of extra friction and damping; seems to help keep the set on the rivet head a bit better. If I had a helper running the bar, I could use my free hand to stabilize the set on the head.

FWIW,

Charlie
 
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"removable" tape

...can be assured by touching the tape to your thigh before installation - picks up just enough fuzz from your blue jeans to assure it won't stick too tightly.
 
Bill,

Good tip! Now that you mention it, I've re-used strips of Scotch tape on several rivets before it's shredded enough to be unusable, and the small about of dirt likely helped it stick 'just enough' to get the job done.

Related to that, I've got an old P-Touch label printer I've been using to label wires; just folding the label over a wire sticking it to itself. I was finding that after a few days, it would 'open up', still stuck to the wire but the adhesive no longer stuck to itself. I found that I could press one side against my somewhat dirty fingertip (leaving dust residue), and then re-close the labels. None have re-opened yet, after that treatment. Kinda the reverse of what you get with Scotch tape on aluminum; the adhesive on the label won't stick to itself but will stick to both sides of the dust. (?) :)

Charlie
 
TASEsq said:
It?s funny, because I had zero issues keeping one die on he rivet mfg head with my finger - it was the die on the ram, which makes the shop head which would slide off slightly and make a crooked rivet - that?s he one I scratched up.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it relevant in your case but this is commonly caused by rivets that are a little bit too long (and it doesn't take much, depending on your technique).
Often times when someone decides that the plans call out is too short if they use the standard rule of thumb, so they switch to the next longer rivet which is maybe just a small bit too long but they figure it will be ok. Often times it will be but it requires a higher level of precision to be sure it doesn't tilt over.

This is why some rivet call outs appear to short.... they may not meet the 1.5/.5D rule of thumb but they will still produce a shop head that meets the Mil spec for size, all while helping still learning builders not have a bunch of tilted rivets to worry about.
 
rv7charlie said:
Bill,I was finding that after a few days, it would 'open up', still stuck to the wire but the adhesive no longer stuck to itself.

Charlie
Click to expand...

I'm labelling wires now, and went thru a couple of iterations. First was what you have - essentially flags. Got tired of them opening up. Then went to shrink tube. Expensive and the labeller seemed wasteful on its pre and post label length. Ive settled in on the cheapest 1/4" label shrink tube I can get then I sharpie the label name with an ultrafine instead of using the labeller. And I can then use both sides of the shrink tube if I want (since it comes out flat from the package). Sharpie doesnt smear after shrinking.

As for the OPs latest question, put the tape where ever you want - on your rivets or on the heads or both (doesnt work so well on the shop head tho). Its cheap. Experiment! Polish your really scratched heads with sandpaper, going progressive to 1000grit. Or screw it, buy new ones and start over.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
This is why some rivet call outs appear to short.... they may not meet the 1.5/.5D rule of thumb but they will still produce a shop head that meets the Mil spec for size, all while helping still learning builders not have a bunch of tilted rivets to worry about.
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott - interesting. The part in question was the toolbox kit, hinge to lid. The skin and lid together are exactly 1/16, and the rivet called for was a AD3-3.5, so to get 1.5D (2.25/16) I would need a rivet that was 3.25/16... basically what was called for. If I account for the depth of the dimple (skin flat to underside of dimple is 3/32, I would need a rivet that was 3.75/16.. again this is likely why vans called for a -3.5 length (its slightly under 1.5d protruding).

Am I understanding the maths here correctly?

I should have tried one of the rivets against my little gauge before I shot it.
 
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