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Garmin Panel Decisions Help

mfleming

Well Known Member
Patron
panel3.jpg


I'm very near making a decision and ordering my panel. I'm going all Garmin. Stein said if my budget was tight, I should wire for the equipment that I don't have money for now but might later. In my case this might be the second G3X and the certified WAAS navigator (probably the GPS175).

The above photo has the GDU460 G3X, GTX-345 Transponder, GPS-175, GTR-200 comm, GMC-507 autopilot controller and second GDU460 G3X. I'm hoping for a second remote comm.

I'm aiming for light IFR functionality.

There are a few things I'm unsure about that I have no way of resolving on my own before purchasing.

Here in no particular order are my questions:

  1. How is the functionality of controlling things like transponder codes and radios through the G3X? Is it worth having the transponder and comm radio physically in the panel for functionality sake? If I get the GNX-375 and ditch the GTX-345 transponder I save $2000 but loose the dedicated transponder in the panel.
  2. Do I really need a dedicated audio panel? Isn't there one built in the GTR-200?.
  3. Why do so many panels have the auto pilot controller so high in the panel? It seem to me it should be by the throttle!?
  4. And, do I need a dedicated auto pilot controller? (I think I do...but??)
 
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panel3.jpg


I'm very near making a decision and ordering my panel. I'm going all Garmin. Stein said if my budget was tight, I should wire for the equipment that I don't have money for now but might later. In my case this might be the second G3X and the certified WAAS navigator (probably the GPS175).

The above photo has the GDU460 G3X, GTX-45 Transponder, GPS-175, GTR-225 comm, GMC-507 autopilot controller and second GDU460 G3X. I'm hoping for a second remote comm.

I'm aiming for light IFR functionality.

There are a few things I'm unsure about that I have no way of resolving on my own before purchasing.

Here in no particular order are my questions:

  1. How is the functionality of controlling things like transponder codes and radios through the G3X? Is it worth having the transponder and comm radio physically in the panel for functionality sake? If I get the GNX-375 and ditch the GTX-45 transponder I save $2000 but loose the dedicated transponder in the panel.
  2. Do I really need a dedicated audio panel? Isn't there one built in the GTR-225?.
  3. Why do so many panels have the auto pilot controller so high in the panel? It seem to me it should be by the throttle!?
  4. And, do I need a dedicated auto pilot controller? (I think I do...but??)

Good Afternoon,

A few thoughts on some of your questions:

  • For an IFR panel, the remote transponder works well for programming squawk codes through the display. You may consider panel mounting the COM radio however for quick access to the knobs on the face of the unit for volume control. You could remote mount a GTR 20 as a #2 COM alongside the GTR 225.
  • The GTR 225 has a built-in 2 place intercom. You would only need an audio panel if you have 2 COM radios, so you can switch between the two of them. With just 1 COM radio, you would enjoy expanded intercom functionality with an audio panel like the GMA 245, but you can get by with just the GTR 225 in this case.
  • You can make all autopilot mode selections through the G3X Touch display, a GMC 507 mode controller is not required. For an IFR aircraft, it is nice to have the controller mounted on the panel, with its own dedicated indicator lights, buttons, and knobs.

Thanks,

Justin
 
How is the functionality of controlling things like transponder codes and radios through the G3X?

You just touch the transponder button on the display and enter the code, easy.

Is it worth having the transponder and comm radio physically in the panel for functionality sake?

Not required, head units are just a preference. The remote units work great and the controls are all on the G3X screen.

However, the new all-in-one navigator/transponder like the GNX-375 look promising.

I have dual remote comms (GTR-20s) and the GTN-625XI.

Do I really need a dedicated audio panel?

This one is a maybe, you might want an audio panel, they do some neat things like bluetooth integration and passenger isolation but no, it doesn't have to take up panel space, all the same functions are available on the touch screen if you use the remote audio panel such as the GMA-245R.

And, do I need a dedicated auto pilot controller?

No, all the same functions are available on the touch screen, the G3X is the autopilot. The controller or "head unit" is just for physical buttons.

Having the dedicated physical buttons is just a preference, I like the simplicity of "less is more". A lot of your panel is just going to be personal preference.
 
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panel3.jpg


I'm aiming for light IFR functionality.

There are a few things I'm unsure about that I have no way of resolving on my own before purchasing.

Here in no particular order are my questions:

  1. How is the functionality of controlling things like transponder codes and radios through the G3X? Is it worth having the transponder and comm radio physically in the panel for functionality sake? If I get the GNX-375 and ditch the GTX-45 transponder I save $2000 but loose the dedicated transponder in the panel.
  2. Do I really need a dedicated audio panel? Isn't there one built in the GTR-225?.
  3. Why do so many panels have the auto pilot controller so high in the panel? It seem to me it should be by the throttle!?
  4. And, do I need a dedicated auto pilot controller? (I think I do...but??)

My opinions
I’m not sure what ‘light ifr’ means. But if you have just one efis display (meaning no backup if it fails) I’d suggest ‘no ifr’ until you have the second panel.
1. I have a different system - GRT Hx controlling a remote mounted Trig TT22 - but I’m happy enough not seeing the transponder on the panel, and entering the codes on the efis. For $2K I’d say it’s a no-brainer.
2. Audio panel is personal preference. I don’t have one, don’t miss it. But I think you will want an intercom with many unswitched inputs for com(s), music, efis alerts/alarms, ILS morse code, etc. More than the intercom built into the com.
3. I think you may be surprised how often you use the autopilot, even vfr. Since you’ll be fiddling with it often, it’s best up high, so you can keep your eyes outside as much as possible.
4. I have a Trio Pro (great unit) so I cannot answer from any experience. But I think you get additional functionality (ease of use) in the Garmin system with this control head.
 
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As others have pointed out, recommend:
- Moving the TSO navigator as high as possible. The display is already hard to read - no need to make it harder.
- The GTN-650 is the best of all the bad options for the TSO navigator, and it serves as COMM #1.
- Use the remote transponder and remote COMM#2.
- Do use an audio panel. The PS Engineering PDA360EX is a very nice panel with BlueTooth and I recommend it. Great for calling for clearances and playing tunes on those long cross country trips.
- Yes you do need the Autopilot control panel, but move it below the TSO navigator.
 
Some ideas after 250 hours with G3X touch flying lots of (practice) IFR, which is the same workload as real IFR (and I fly some of that, too):
* Definitely get the autopilot controller. You?ll use it a lot, and having to bring the autopilot controller up on the PFD, make your selection and put it away is a big distraction from flying the plane IFR. Get it, and I like it on top;
* If you put too much radio tuning stuff on the top of the panel, you lose space for the parameter bar. It is SO NICE to have so much information always displayed there. On mine, the PFD shows the next waypoint (name, dist, time) and other stuff, the GTN750 shows the destination waypoint, and rarely used parameters (density altitude, for example) are on the MFD;
* I only have one comm and really don?t miss the second comm much. Certainly en route, the flip flop gives you most of what you need and the monitor function lets you pick up ATIS when there?s a break in the main comm frequency;
* No, you don?t need an audio panel for controlling the radios, but as somebody else pointed out, make sure that you get all of the audio alerts into the system;
* I have the NAV freqs on the #2 display, and it shows not only the frequency, but what the database thinks that frequency goes to, like which runway. You still have to check the Morse ID on the GTN 750, though;
* Forty years ago, when comm radios were mechanically tuned and flip-flops were unheard of in GA, changing to a new frequency while retaining the old frequency meant turn off one receiver, turn on the other, and switch transmitters ? three actuations. That was done very frequently, so the audio panel earned its way to the top of the stack. Also, since the audio panel was smaller (in cubic inches) than the radios, its top could be tapered to fit under the fuselage where it tapered down. These days, unless your operation is unusual, you?d hardly touch it ? maybe for music or something, but if you?re IFR, depending, you might be too busy for music;
* I think you can get away with a remote transponder. The only thing I?d do would be to add an IDENT button on the panel for those rare occasions that you need it. I rarely get a new squawk code in the air.

If this thread continues long enough, you might get opposing opinions on every point... :)
 
Some ideas after 250 hours with
*
* These days, unless your operation is unusual, you’d hardly touch it – maybe for music or something, but if you’re IFR, depending, you might be too busy for music;
* I think you can get away with a remote transponder. The only thing I’d do would be to add an IDENT button on the panel for those rare occasions that you need it. I rarely get a new squawk code in the air.

If this thread continues long enough, you might get opposing opinions on every point... :)

+1 On the ident button. Our local tower asks for it a lot, even for vfr traffic. I remoted mine to a button on the the control stick, even though it’s easy enough to access from my efis display.
+1 on #2 com. I use mine routinely for ATIS, but use it so seldom for transmitting that I have to remind myself every 6 months or so to use it, just to be sure it still works!
 
Garmin IFR

So much of this is personal preference so set it up so that it pleases you. Getting close to this point on my 9. I?ll never intentionally do hard ifr in this plane, but I?m rated & capable and will equip for LPV & ILS approaches.

My choices after a lot of thought:

I already have a GTN 650 for this project
2 G3x displays with 2 ADHARS
1 G5 mounted on far left

-Panel mounted- (top to bottom)
Garmin audio panel
GTN 650
GTR 20
507 autopilot controller

I prefer accessible knobs on panel mounted equipment, but transponder is mostly set and forget and I?m out of space in center stack so GTX 45R on a shelf behind the baggage comp

Undecided on GAD27, don?t want a backup avionics battery, but will have SD-8 backup alternator.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
 
You said GTR225, but it looks like you have a GTR200 in the panel picture, which is what I am going with and meets your needs.
GNX375 will give you an IFR GPS and ADS-B in-out transponder.

So, I?d lose the standalone transponder and move the comm to the bottom of your stack.

Looks good otherwise.
 
You said GTR225, but it looks like you have a GTR200 in the panel picture, which is what I am going with and meets your needs.
GNX375 will give you an IFR GPS and ADS-B in-out transponder.

So, I?d lose the standalone transponder and move the comm to the bottom of your stack.

Looks good otherwise.
 
You said GTR225, but it looks like you have a GTR200 in the panel picture, which is what I am going with and meets your needs.
GNX375 will give you an IFR GPS and ADS-B in-out transponder.

So, I’d lose the standalone transponder and move the comm to the bottom of your stack.

Looks good otherwise.

Correct GTR 200.
Edited the original post to reflect that.
Also the original transponder is a GTX 345 made that edit in the original post
 
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Second Iteration from Advice Received

panel4.jpg


So what I have learned is that the GNX 375 will do nicely for the GPS navigator and transponder. I downloaded Garmin's GPS Trainer and I like the transponder display with ident button...should be very nice. This saves $2000 compared to the GPS 175 navigator and GTX 345 transponder.

It looks like if I want a GTR 20R remote #2 comm I'll need an audio panel. But if I use only one comm, I can save quite a bit of money and complexity.

I'm wondering how those built-in radio intercoms really work though?

Also, It's my understanding that the GNX 375 GPS info will port to the G3X for display...correct?
 
panel4.jpg


It looks like if I want a GTR 20R remote #2 comm I'll need an audio panel. But if I use only one comm, I can save quite a bit of money and complexity.

I'm wondering how those built-in radio intercoms really work though?

Also, It's my understanding that the GNX 375 GPS info will port to the G3X for display...correct?

I think you need the arinc module to get full functionality out of the 375 gps.
As discussed several posts back, a full blown audio panel makes operation smoother if you frequently switch between coms. OTOH if #2 is mostly a backup, you can get away with a good intercom (with lots of unswitched inputs) and a panel switch to go between #1 and #2. You might be able to just use the built in intercom (and a panel switch), or you may need a cheap mixer, depending on what capability you want.
 
I'm wondering how those built-in radio intercoms really work though?

First off go for the GTR 200B. Why settle for the non-bluetooth GTR 200 when you can go "B"? I am glad you really weren't talking about a GTR 225 as typo'd in your first post. The 225 costs more without the feature set of the 200. The 225 is for the poor sods stuck in the type certified crowd (I own both experimental and certified aircraft). Although Garmin just released a PMA'd version of the 200B (dash 41 part number) that costs the higher price of the 225.

As to your question: While intercoms buit into VHF comms have always had a legacy of spotty and sub-par performance the GTR 200B is a whole different animal. The built-in intercom in the GTR 200B is the hands-down best integrated stereo intercom available today in any new panel VHF transceiver. It totally rocks and is as good as the top of the line audio panels and stand-alone ICS boxes like the PSE PM 3000. In many instances better. For a single comm installation there is no reason to have an audio panel when we have an option the likes of the GTR 200B. The GTR 200B doesn't provide switching like an audio panel but who needs it when it has standby frequency monitoring, Bluetooth and automatic full stereo intercom with 3D ICS station and ATC frequency spacial audio. The GTR 200B also fully integrates with G3X touch over the CAN Bus. Pure simplicity with all the niceties.

I like how you are leaning towards the GNX 375 with a GTR 200B. Perfect set up saving lots of space and screen real estate on the GDUs.

You definitely want the dedicated autopilot control panel. VFR or IFR it makes operation a breeze compared to menu window mess on the GDU. A whole lot less distraction in the air.

I like the layout. Everyone has positioning preferences and I am with the autopilot on top of the stack followed by the GNX 375 crowd. Just like your last layout.

You are going to love flying that panel.

Jim
 
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AHRS "tie breaker" for IFR

A lot of good suggestions on your panel, but one that may have been overlooked was mentioned by Cajunwings in post #8 involving a second AHRS. I have an all Garmin IFR panel in my 8 (single GDU with two AHRS, GTN 650, and a G5). The G5 has its own internal AHRS, GPS antenna, and can drive the autopilot. It can also double as a backup HSI. I'm assuming with two GDU's in your panel, you will also have two GSU25 AHRS units. If you intend to fly IFR someday I strongly recommend a third (provided by the G5) as a tie breaker in case #1 and #2 AHRS don't get along with each other. I've had problems from day one with my two GSU's due to vibration (which Garmin has been very helpful with), but which manifests itself in the form of heading and occasional attitude miscompare messages. Sometimes the heading will drift; other times the attitude tumbles. Not a problem when VFR, but in IMC it can present a real problem. The G5 however, has been rock solid. In an unlikely worst case scenario, a third GSU as a tie breaker could save your life. If you haven't already, it would be to your advantage to delve into the G3X pilot's guide and review the failure modes of the GSU's and how you would deal with them as you plan your panel.

J. Baker
 
I'm wondering how those built-in radio intercoms really work though?

Also, It's my understanding that the GNX 375 GPS info will port to the G3X for display...correct?

You've received some great guidance and recommendations from several Garmin-experience users in this thread. I will just add a couple notes based on many conversations I have discussing these options to homebuilders:

1. The intercom in the GTR200(B) is fantastic. It serves up to 2 seats and is a crystal clear digital interface, and the bluetooth functionality of the GTR200B model will allow you to connect to a mobile device for music or that phone call if you need to pick up an IFR clearance at a non-towered airport.

2. The GNX375 is a great choice for your needs at a great value. While it may be a little more cost now, it will save you $$ in the future vs equipping with an ADSB In/Out transponder now and adding an IFR GPS navigator later. The GNX375 interfaces great with the G3X Touch for all of your flight plan and waypoint information/viewing on the larger GDU screen.

You will need a GAD29 installed (ARINC 429 interface) to utilize the IFR capability of the GNX375.

When moving to a 2-COM setup, you will need to look at the audio panel option such as the GMA245/245R to prodive the switching inputs between those radios. There are other 3rd party switching options out there, but keep in mind this could be a critical point to introduce unwelcome noise into the audio system.

On the AHRS discussion, with single-screen G3X/GSU ADHRS, I absolutely recommend a G5 for a backup instrument. This will not only provide backup functionality of the autopilot (with GMC autopilot controller intstalled), but will provide it's air data to the GDU screen in the case of a GSU failure. I consider this optional with a dual GSU installation, but still nice to have for the value of the G5.

Best Regards,

Brad
 
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G3Xpert hit the nail on the head, and it seems like you came to the same conclusion that I did regarding GPS175/GNX375. My original plan was to go GPS175 and then a GTX35 transponder. Changing to the GNX375 saved me a boat load of money AND added IFR capabilities to my airplane (my original plan was to do the GPS175 down the road.)

The G3x and the GNX375 will communicate/share info. You can tune the 375 through the G3X if you want. My preference is to save the screen space and tune the XPDR on the unit itself though.

The G5 is a great investment as well... if you're already doing it, the added value you get from it is worth the pocket change (compared to everything else you are buying here..) It will give you a back up AHARS as well for the extra warm and fuzzy at night/occasional IMC session.

Someone mentioned up there that having the actual A/P panel is a must. I will echo that.. but it looks like you already have it planned in your drawing. in actual IMC, single pilot - feeling the knob/button is key... pun intended.

I would absolutely go with the GMA-245 versus the 245R. I got the 245R because space is a premium in the RV-4; but I do wish I had the valuable real estate back that it takes up on the top row of my display. That said, it's kind of cool what they have done with audio panels lately. Being able to put my passenger on their own music source is going to be wonderful during those long cross country with the lady friend.

When you start tearing in to this - you will find it is best to do it ONCE rather than to plan to add functionality in the future. This is a big undertaking but worth every drop of sweat and penny.

I love my panel, I wouldnt change it for the world.

Edit: one other thing, if you're adding the GMA-245(r) you can just go with the GTR-200 and drop the "b". The GMA-245/R will bring bluetooth functionality to your panel.
 
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I like all of the replies. My take is...

No need for a second com and the built in intercom is great.

No need for a nav radio. Carry a hand held with VOR capability if it makes you feel better (it's your backup com as well).

Do need a second display and ADAHRS so a G5 hits the spot.

Do get the AP controller. Very useful and if your PFD fails, it is how you use the AP with the G5.

I bought my equipment 4 years ago so the new Nav and Transponder units were not available, but my functionality is much like what you seem to be heading for.
 
Final Panel Iteration (I Hope)

panel5.jpg


This has been the most productive thread for me ever :D

All the great ideas really helped to solidify my panel decision. The estimate from SteinAir came in this morning. I may have to defer the second G3X to later but I'm hoping not.

So here are my thoughts on what I am installing and why.

  • G3X EFIS - Well that was a given but it looks like I can swing the second one. If not, the wiring will be in and a plate over the cutout.
  • G5 EFIS - That's a new addition to the panel. The reason for adding the G5 is I wanted a second AHRS but it wasn't THAT much more to to just use the G5 as the redundant AHRS unit instead of bolting one on the back of the second G3X.
  • GNX 375 GPS Navigator/Transponder - Saves bucks from having a separate transponder and GPS navigator. Plus is looks like a great unit.
  • GTR 200B Comm/Intercom/Bluetooth - Decided on a single comm. This is a sweet unit and saves the expense and complexity of a audio panel.
  • GMC 507 Autopilot controller - Im convinced (didn't take much) a dedicated autopilot controller is a must have.

My plan is to wire this myself. I'll order all the connector kits and wire from SteinAir. They have a new product...Plexiglas cutouts of all the behind the panel components. These are the proper dimension, mounting holes and plug locations. This will be great when trying to figure out the sub-panel puzzle.

Looking forward to this phase of building :D
 
  • G5 EFIS - That's a new addition to the panel. The reason for adding the G5 is I wanted a second AHRS but it wasn't THAT much more to to just use the G5 as the redundant AHRS unit instead of bolting one on the back of the second G3X.

One of the things I learned when I went to the AEA's Avionics Installation for Experimental Aircraft course was that you do not want to bolt the ADAHRS to the back of the GDU. Yes, there are mounting hole there to do this. However, there are a couple of problems with doing it. One is vibration. The panel & G3X aren't stiff enough to prevent this, and the vibration interferes with calibration. There are also servicability issues. Removing a GDU gives you great access to everything else behind the panel. Putting the GSU 25 on the back of the GDU makes that more difficult due to the pitot static tubing.
 
One big advantage to dual GSU25's is the G3X compares their data and will throw up a warning if they disagree. So for IFR aircraft I'm a big proponent of dual GSU25's and a G5, that way you have 3 independent sources and a tie breaker.
 
One of the things I learned when I went to the AEA's Avionics Installation for Experimental Aircraft course was that you do not want to bolt the ADAHRS to the back of the GDU. Yes, there are mounting hole there to do this. However, there are a couple of problems with doing it. One is vibration. The panel & G3X aren't stiff enough to prevent this, and the vibration interferes with calibration. There are also servicability issues. Removing a GDU gives you great access to everything else behind the panel. Putting the GSU 25 on the back of the GDU makes that more difficult due to the pitot static tubing.

Interesting, so where do we mount the GSU 25's then? Stein says he mounts them to the back but you're right, a previous poster had trouble with vibration.

One big advantage to dual GSU25's is the G3X compares their data and will throw up a warning if they disagree. So for IFR aircraft I'm a big proponent of dual GSU25's and a G5, that way you have 3 independent sources and a tie breaker.

My IFR flying in the clouds will be minimal to say the least, maybe a transition through a marine layer on occasion. These new panels are amazing and just think how we would punch up through a layer with one artificial horizon and a sketchy vacuum pump :eek:
 
Vibration

One big advantage to dual GSU25's is the G3X compares their data and will throw up a warning if they disagree. So for IFR aircraft I'm a big proponent of dual GSU25's and a G5, that way you have 3 independent sources and a tie breaker.

Walt: What is your preferred mounting location for the GSU?s on the side by side RV?s with dual G3x?s. Thanks

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
 
Walt: What is your preferred mounting location for the GSU?s on the side by side RV?s with dual G3x?s. Thanks

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer

I never mount to screens, I generally use the sub panel on the OB ends where they are more rigid.
 
Walt, do you have any photos of that kind of mount :D

Here's a pic of the way I mounted mine on a little shelf, supported by the sub panel and on each side by the rib and side-rail for a good solid mount. I did it this way on mine as I previously had some large cutouts in the sub panel and didn't feel that it had enough rigidity.

2019071509421334-IMG_0688-L.jpg


Here's an RV9 subpanel mount which is the way I typically mount them. Mounting both AHRS with a GAD27 beneath helps to increase the rigidity of the subpanel even more.

IMG_0571-L.jpg


RV9 finished product in case you're interested!

IMG_7842rev11200-L.jpg
 
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Here's a pic of the way I mounted mine on a little shelf, supported on each side by the panel rib and side-rail for a good solid mount. I did it this way on mine as I previously had some large cutouts in the sub panel and didn't feel that it had enough rigidity.

2019071509421334-IMG_0688-L.jpg


Here's an RV9 subpanel mount which is the way I typically mount them. Mounting both AHRS with a GAD27 beneath helps to increase the rigidity of the subpanel even more.

IMG_0571-L.jpg


RV9 finished product in case you're interested!

IMG_7842rev11200-L.jpg

Very nice. It makes sense not to hang that off the back of the GDU-460.

PM'ed you.
 
GDU mounting

Thanks Walt. You always a lot of help and I appreciate you sharing what you know.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
 
Hook Up Chart?

Is a "Hook up chart the same as a wiring drawing?

Monday I'm ordering all the components to wire the panel from SteinAir. One of the items is an Avionics Interconnect Drawing.

Just wondering if the hook up chart and the Avionics Interconnect Drawing are the same thing?
 
Post Final Panel Iteration

panel.jpg


Soooo...I did some number crunching from the estimate I received from SteinAir.
For just a bit more money, I can have three displays, two AHARS and a really nice panel.

This means losing the G5 and the second 10.5" Display, then adding two 7" portrait displays and a second ADHAR unit. I'll confirm with SteinAir tomorrow on the price difference. If my number crunching is wrong, I'll stick with the last iteration.
 
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3 displays?

In post #19 there is some good clear logic and rationale for the choices and the third display (G5) was introduced because it includes an inbuilt AHARS.

In this latest iteration the G5 is replaced with another display that does not have its own ADHARS, requiring another GSU25 unit. So, just curious why three displays are still needed now? Wouldn't two be able do the job? Not a criticism, but interested is the concept behind this (I liked the logic of post #19).
 
My take

There is a reason why most panels now have 2 10? displays and a G5. Remember the G5 uses different software to avoid a software problem taking down all navigation.

Just my opinion but I dont see a need for 3 displays. I think one for pilot stuff and one for nav, not sure why the third, in flight entertainment? I prefer in flight entertainment to be in the right seat. Just my opinion.
 
In post #19 there is some good clear logic and rationale for the choices and the third display (G5) was introduced because it includes an inbuilt AHARS.

In this latest iteration the G5 is replaced with another display that does not have its own ADHARS, requiring another GSU25 unit. So, just curious why three displays are still needed now? Wouldn't two be able do the job? Not a criticism, but interested is the concept behind this (I liked the logic of post #19).

Absolutely two could do the job. The far right screen would be for engine instruments. This iteration, if I did my number crunching correctly, would be just under $1400 more than the last iteration. I would have two very capable units directly in front of me (the 7" gives me so much more than the G5) and the engine instruments can live off to the side where they belong.

In post #22, Walt makes the argument that two GSU 25s will alarm if there is a mismatch, where one GSU 25 and the G5 will not.

All that being said the post #19 logic still stands and may be the way I go.

There is a reason why most panels now have 2 10” displays and a G5. Remember the G5 uses different software to avoid a software problem taking down all navigation.

Just my opinion but I dont see a need for 3 displays. I think one for pilot stuff and one for nav, not sure why the third, in flight entertainment? I prefer in flight entertainment to be in the right seat. Just my opinion.

Hmmm...I hadn't thought about the software difference.

You're right, there is not a demonstrated need for the third display. For a small cost increase I could have the third display for engine instruments and as you say, in flight entertainment. A lot of the right seat passengers will be pilots (my wife is an ATP) and knowledgeable friends and I like the idea of letting them in on the fun.

One of the things that people are telling me is that the second 10.5" display on the right is so far away they hardly ever look at it. With this set up I get two displays directly in front and a stand-by off to the side.

BUT most of all, I like the looks :p
 
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My comments on this layout are really just something to think about.

You might try sitting in the cockpit and reaching for those instruments on the right. They may be more uncomfortable to reach than you think. I would prefer to have them in the center section for that reason.

You'll want to check the depth of the GNX 375. You may have to modify the sub panel to get it to fit there. Same for the radio (the sub panel will need to be modified for it to fit).

I like the idea of a second screen for the ATP wife and other pilot passengers. For that reason I would make it a 10.5" display. You can think of two 10.5" displays as almost four 7" displays.

The G5 will only offer fail over protection but it is different hardware and software than the GSU25. It does fail over gracefully. It will fit in the center stack, I know because I have it there with similar equipment as you are proposing.
 
Michael,
Just curious if you have had the chance to fly with or see the 10" screen side by side the 7" screen? i spent hours at Oshkosh playing with both of them, along with comparing Garmin against the offerings from other vendors, all of which helped me narrow my choices. It's your panel, get what you want, but I personally would hesitate to ditch the G5 for a third 7" screen based on little more than price difference.

i would reiterate the need for a third GSU (in the form of a G5) if you intend to fly hard IFR. While it is true that any disagreement between two GSU 25's will alert, the failures I have experienced can sometimes be insidious. At other times, either manually selecting which GSU will provide data or allowing the system do choose automatically when the system does alert, makes very little difference. Having the G5 to refer to, even if the system doesn't revert to its internal AHRS, is instant and makes life alot simpler in IMC.

Regards,
J. Baker
RV8
 
I LIKE IT

panel.jpg


OK, I installed the sub panel and panel temporarily so I could try out this iteration.

This is it. I really like the three panel versatility. I did not have trouble reaching any of the screens, nor did I have trouble reading them. Granted, the far right display will be for engine instruments and the passengers amusement.

Here are som photos showing the relative distance from the left seat.

panel_1.jpg


panel_2.jpg


panel_3.jpg
 
Knobs and switches

It's not evident in the pictures or discussion where all the switches, control knobs and levers etc. are going to be located, so would be worth checking there is enough clearance to locate e.g. throttle and flap switch in the 'normal' locations. The space below the left hand 7 inch display looks a bit narrow in the pictures. Just a thought, though you probably have a solution in mind.
 
Switches and Breakers

It's not evident in the pictures or discussion where all the switches, control knobs and levers etc. are going to be located, so would be worth checking there is enough clearance to locate e.g. throttle and flap switch in the 'normal' locations. The space below the left hand 7 inch display looks a bit narrow in the pictures. Just a thought, though you probably have a solution in mind.

panel.jpg


This morning I sent a photo of this layout to SteinAir. They have a program where the can insert all the displays and check for structural viability. The standard Van's panel, which this is one, will support the width of these displays.
We talked about the the space for switches and a slightly deeper panel would give me the room needed.
 
Well, I might have missed your decision on the radios, but wanted to offer up my solution to the two radio/audio panel problem. I wanted separate buttons for each radio, a com1 PTT and a com2 PTT as I do a lot of formation flying and a flip-flop button is a no-go. None of the panels at the time supported this, so for around $30 and some creative wiring I had a relay that switched the mic source to com2 when I keyed the mic, and defaulted to com1/intercom when I wasn't pressing the com2 button. I was also able to wire a small $5 bluetooth receiver to the hardwired music input channel on the GTR200. So for $35 or so I avoided the expense of a audio panel and have the functionality I want. It was a great space/weight/cost saver and I love the way it works. Audio routing is detailed on the lower center portion of the schematic and relay wiring is on the right. Good luck, looks like you've got a nice panel designed!

-Fitz
uK4cUkceadzhhijIKfrewW_aIs0yXHWzFZryB5I88WungQPjbLO-2r6wVzhDmNMoSSCZpxe2MGtNxg5IBnHgkTEuQT-HsNQEnWVIZhfdPUy8AdZ9HOS4bHsks-b1cqQ4sSG9q9ZReeejeCkT3UTrmfKolXvxp5V70SaCHoI_BULb_bTVUGM-12JSl3HnYtZGjycVYROWQfQYV6RZOApFbZtDaGXrlBdSzDaAUaHziiw7VXgTsqSQu60aTQGXDqQYcjilMiUn7VOc3pafU3rieRrTgs89oPFyimM81edSu-j1BU103JVxTr0oN3-hpSnXTtcQ5_dgEiVZTkolsaFmXWjM7PpIJVsrghUkwz1O_q7q0ObPF3VHLFYZ1aLuxheloUogspMketpi84LuS1TCTovARfBdbER01m962qEzqL_aWNELHi3YqA4E7XMoerzJGtfgUuzsVqB_2A2jQ-y6LSuLLMiep2k08d4ivwQdlKZOEuVJeF6aHbW6bdkVHrTRQgd_7ByF0JvcWp-f9mae2p5Emag-qTKx55mP2rnbDXyu3Rs2_IXCisDYlpMBWDtvsqoWgV5pGaZpuigCbSlTGYYC7ORzd4M=w977-h670-no


Album for full-res legibility https://goo.gl/photos/ibs51J34TZsdfboP8
 
You might think having the eng instruments on the far right is ok but I redid my panel because I had the MVP50 (large engine display) on the right and hated it (love the MVP50 but just not over on the far right). I was always looking/leaning over there to view the info.
Ended up with a EI CGR30 over on the left so I had the eng. instrument in front of me.

I made this change when I started doing more and more IFR and I felt it had become a major distraction.
Bottom line is you'll likely end up with the eng inst on the LH side of the 10" PFD.
I think you may also have a prob with the stack that far over, its going to go thru where the sub panel parts join.

From this: (note 4 attitude sources! 2 GSU's, G5, Sandia)

IMG7671-650.jpg


To this: (love this setup with CGR30 top left, if I didn't already have the EI system installed I woulda put the inst on the MFD)

IMG_0683%20orig%20%282%29-L.jpg


Great Panel IMO, symmetry makes it pleasing to the eye, if I was going to redo my panel (again) it would probably be this...

IMG_0904%20%282%29-L.jpg
 
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