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Oil Canning

DaveO

Well Known Member
I have oil canning between the first and the second of the right side of the tail cone.
I thought about purchasing some stiffness and installing them in the middle of the part that oil cans.
When i push in from the outside I can see a indentation of the skin. I think if the support that portion of the stop I can stop the event.

What do many of you think, or is there a more practical way of dealing with this issue.

Thanks in advance for your help
 
It's common, I've seen it in more than a few RV's. Mine has some, not very noticeable but definitely there. The J-Stiffener is what caused mine, not perfectly straight, there is a slight twist in it.
 
Dave,

Not sure exactly where you mean, but I'm thinking you're describing the area between the most forward bulkhead and the second bulkhead. If so, I have the same issue. Although shown on the left in the picture below, mine too is on the right side.

I discovered mine while the cone was still upside down on the sawhorses and before I riveted. After taking the entire assembly apart four times and putting it back together in a different order (top to bottom, bottom to top, front to back and back to front). I decided that there was nothing I could do about it. I hoped that it would go away after riveting, but it didn't.

As described by Bill, the oil canning is very slight. I decided to live with it and add some sort of stiffener later if it really botheres me. Would take almost nothing to make it go away.

Picture below shows the location.

mwwmbs.jpg
 
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I have oil canning between the first and the second of the right side of the tail cone.

Me too, but on the left side. Keep us posted on the results if you do decide to add extra stiffeners. A piece of butyl or foam acoustic damping material might be enough to prevent canning in practice. Then again, this is not the easiest place to reach once it's all buttoned up.
 
Yes, You hit the spot," Reflex" and also in behind the next bulkhead back. Both are not real bad, I think that I will live with it. Though, as I look down across the outside of the metal I can see a small what appears a dent. I do not like that.

I followed the instructions in the order of riveting, but it still happened.

In reality, unless one is looking for that effect, I do not think it would be a issue.
Thanks for all your input to the situation, my post left words out as I did not read it before I posted.

If I change mind and try to fix the situation I will repost.
 
You won?t get a much clearer example than this.
258bhhh.jpg

This was taken during Phase I fly off. I had similar examples on the other side - definitely exacerbated by pressures during flight.

To fix it, I cut segments of J-stiffener and mounted them between the bulkheads, parallel to the horizontal stiffeners, held to the skin with pro seal - six pieces in all.
 
To fix it, I cut segments of J-stiffener and mounted them between the bulkheads, parallel to the horizontal stiffeners, held to the skin with pro seal - six pieces in all.

Any time you add a stiffener between bulkheads, be sure to secure that stiffener to the bulkheads at each end. Otherwise a crack will develop over time at the end of the stiffener.
 
Mel,
I do not understand your post about attaching the stiffener to the bulkhead. On the 14 the stiffeners are not attached to the bulkhead as per plans. They run through the bulkheads.
Please explain more.
Thanks
 
We have had some issues with the stiffeners in the flying RV14 that I built. Mel is correct that cracks may occur at the end of stiffeners that are not attached to the adjacent bulkhead. I first encountered this years ago when a friend installed stiffeners on the bottom of a RV6 to stop oil canning. After a short while cracks occurred on the bottom of the fuse. The same thing has happened on the RV14

e7jvps.jpg


This has occurred in the aft fuselage in ours, in two locations and is not the only aircraft that has experienced this. We passed this information on to Vans a few months ago and have been waiting for the engineers to come up with a fix.

This picture shows where they are on the lower aft fuselage. The cracks were stop drilled and you see safety wire sticking through just for reference as to where they are. The aircraft continues to fly, with no further cracks.

A fix will likely be some sort of bracket that will tie the stiffener to the bulkhead.


1ny49z.jpg
 
Thanks for the post about the cracks. I did not understand how I could attach them. But my fix to add stiffeners will be put on hold, maybe as some suggested to Pro Seal them on, may be the way to go.
 
Proseal will have the same effect. The problem occurs because the stiffener is bonded to the skin making them vibrate together. That vibration is now concentrated at the end of the stiffener. It vibrates as a unit and the bulkhead holds the skin rigid. If the stiffener is attached to the bulkhead, it forms a single unit.
In cases where the stiffener is continuous "through" the bulkhead, it's not a problem.
Not sure how to put it clearly in words, but I have seen quite a few skin cracks under these circumstances.
 
Since it?s not structural perhaps just proseal and no rivets?

The cracks don't always occur at the rivet. Often the skin cracks at the end of the stiffener. So in that case proseal wouldn't change anything.
 
Oil canning isn't limited to the 14, I had a section in the aft fuselage of my -8A that would go 'thump' after shutdown as it relaxed post-flight. Here's an interesting read for anyone curious or concerned about oil canning in RVs:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=36763

One thing to keep in mind is that the skin distortion in flight is hard to see on a painted airplane, so unless you leave it polished and the lighting is just right, you generally won't need to worry about it ruining that nice air-to-air photo you frame and hang on the wall. Look at the dozens of pics of painted RV-14s online and try to find any other example where the oil canning is visible either on ground or in flight...

Regarding the fix for the cracked rivets at the unsupported ends of the bottom skin stiffeners, I'm keenly interested in a fix from Vans (or I'll come up with something myself). The RV-8 is notorious for cracks in the exhaust ramp area and my -8A was no exception, but I was hoping to avoid cracking issues on the -14 airframe...
 
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We have had some issues with the stiffeners in the flying RV14 that I built. Mel is correct that cracks may occur at the end of stiffeners that are not attached to the adjacent bulkhead. I first encountered this years ago when a friend installed stiffeners on the bottom of a RV6 to stop oil canning. After a short while cracks occurred on the bottom of the fuse. The same thing has happened on the RV14

e7jvps.jpg


This has occurred in the aft fuselage in ours, in two locations and is not the only aircraft that has experienced this. We passed this information on to Vans a few months ago and have been waiting for the engineers to come up with a fix.

This picture shows where they are on the lower aft fuselage. The cracks were stop drilled and you see safety wire sticking through just for reference as to where they are. The aircraft continues to fly, with no further cracks.

A fix will likely be some sort of bracket that will tie the stiffener to the bulkhead.


1ny49z.jpg

Tom, you mention knowing of other aircraft that have experienced cracks like those in your -14...are you referring specifically to other -14's or other RV's in general? I'm curious to know if cracks are appearing in other -14s, are they in the exact same location? It looks like yours cracked at the aft-most rivet in two of the stiffeners, but there are half a dozen J-channel stiffeners in the tailcone that are unsupported (no direct connection to a bulkhead) at the forward end...no issues there??
 
Mark, we were told that this had happened on other RV14s, both nose and tail wheel models. That is all the information that was supplied by Van?s.
 
So we just riveted the Aft Side Fuse Skin on this past weekend. I am wondering what direction to take here. We would have very easy access at this point, not having the Top Skins on. Making dimples might be a little challenging though.

My biggest fear is not knowing what I don't know. Therefore we have had strict adherence to the plans. I am not sure what path to take. I would hate to have to climb back inside the completed plane to add stiffeners. Thoughts?

Thanks
 
I have practically no oil canning in this area but still have a bit of concern considering how large of an area it is without stiffener. I have spoken to VANs to get their feedback and they thought if there is no oil canning present I can leave it alone. But if I was going to deal with it, the easiest is to glue (proseal) either angle (AA3-025) or J-channel strip to in the middle and tie it to the bulkhead as others have said. No riveting to the skin will be required.

I am still contemplating adding sections of the J-channel and glue them to the skin and rivet the ends to the bulkhead.
 
At this point folks should just contact Van's for further guidance or information. If you are building move on to the wings and leave the aft fuse alone until the fix is announced. I would not add any extra stiffeners at this time.
Things like this are the reason I like to fly a plane for a year before paint. The"fix", when announced, will be much easier do on an unpainted plane, especially if you have some cracks already.
 
We have had some issues with the stiffeners in the flying RV14 that I built. Mel is correct that cracks may occur at the end of stiffeners that are not attached to the adjacent bulkhead. I first encountered this years ago when a friend installed stiffeners on the bottom of a RV6 to stop oil canning. After a short while cracks occurred on the bottom of the fuse. The same thing has happened on the RV14

e7jvps.jpg


This has occurred in the aft fuselage in ours, in two locations and is not the only aircraft that has experienced this. We passed this information on to Vans a few months ago and have been waiting for the engineers to come up with a fix.

This picture shows where they are on the lower aft fuselage. The cracks were stop drilled and you see safety wire sticking through just for reference as to where they are. The aircraft continues to fly, with no further cracks.

A fix will likely be some sort of bracket that will tie the stiffener to the bulkhead.


1ny49z.jpg

This issue is a top priority engineering dept project that will be getting attention very soon.
 
I have spoken to VANs to get their feedback and they thought if there is no oil canning present I can leave it alone. But if I was going to deal with it, the easiest is to glue (proseal) either angle (AA3-025) or J-channel strip to in the middle and tie it to the bulkhead as others have said. No riveting to the skin will be required.

Just to be clear, are you saying Vans specifically approved of prosealing in additional sections of angle or J-channel to address the oil canning on the lower fuselage sides? It has been my impression from others who have discussed with Vans that they have discouraged doing such mods...
 
Hi gents,

Other than finding out things like this on the forums, is there any other way to keep abreast of these issues?

Would this be something Van's would issue a SB for?

It would be a shame to build through something like this without realizing, only to have to go back later. Is there any sort of list of these issues one needs to keep in mind when going through the kits?
 
Just to be clear, are you saying Vans specifically approved of prosealing in additional sections of angle or J-channel to address the oil canning on the lower fuselage sides? It has been my impression from others who have discussed with Vans that they have discouraged doing such mods...

I am not sure if I can say "approve" if meant something in writing but certainly in my conversation and seeking advise on the issue, they express no concern in doing the method that I described which it was their recommendation. They did say that if no oil canning is present I should leave it alone but if there is oil canning, the option to fix it is to add a stiffener (AA3-025 or J-channel) that is bonded to the skin and tied to the bulkhead.
 
Hi gents,

Other than finding out things like this on the forums, is there any other way to keep abreast of these issues?

Would this be something Van's would issue a SB for?

It would be a shame to build through something like this without realizing, only to have to go back later. Is there any sort of list of these issues one needs to keep in mind when going through the kits?

Builders should be regularly checking the support section of Van's web site related to the model they are building.
For the RV-14 it is located HERE
 
To the forum:
Below is the reply I received from Mitch Lock on April 28, 2018 after I had multiple communications with the engineering department at Van's starting December 17, 2017:

"Steve,

As promised I went to engineering this morning to discuss this situation. Yes, they are aware of it as both of our factory aircraft here have the same issue. Engineering?s conclusion is that it is not a safety-of-flight issue. It is an area that needs redesign to tie the stiffener into the bulkhead. They are discussing various fixes but have yet to come up with a final solution. Once completed, there will be a service bulletin issued.

Tom showed me pictures IIRC and since the cracks have been stop drilled there should be no further issue for you.

Best regards,

Mitchell Lock"
President
Van?s Aircraft, Inc.
14401 Keil Rd. NE
Aurora, OR 97002
503.678.6545
 
To the forum:
Below is the reply I received from Mitch Lock on April 28, 2018 after I had multiple communications with the engineering department at Van's starting December 17, 2017:

"Steve,

As promised I went to engineering this morning to discuss this situation. Yes, they are aware of it as both of our factory aircraft here have the same issue. Engineering?s conclusion is that it is not a safety-of-flight issue. It is an area that needs redesign to tie the stiffener into the bulkhead. They are discussing various fixes but have yet to come up with a final solution. Once completed, there will be a service bulletin issued.

Tom showed me pictures IIRC and since the cracks have been stop drilled there should be no further issue for you.

Best regards,

Mitchell Lock"
President
Van?s Aircraft, Inc.
14401 Keil Rd. NE
Aurora, OR 97002
503.678.6545


Am I the only one that is concerned and a bit disappointed by this revelation?

You spend upwards of nearly $50K on a kit, and it develops skin cracks in the first 100 hours. Since it's not safety of flight, they seem to be okay with the situation, but are working a fix? I'm sorry, skin cracks in the first 100 hours of a NEW airplane, from this customers stand point. . . is a problem.

The kit manufacturer has known about it as the factory demonstrators have both experienced this problem. When, and for how long? I would probably be a little more understanding if this was only happening to builder airplanes due to the ametuer nature and skill set of the home builder. The factory airplanes were built by very skillful multi time builders. The demonstrator has been in the field for nearly 5 years.

Why hasn't the fix been figured out before now? 30 some plus airplanes completed and at least one that we know of has cracks. That airplane was built by a multi time builder as well. What is there in the way of tail kits sold? Must be pushing 500 by now. We now see an email from the company president that dates back to April. . . they're on it? Like a fellow builder just said to me, "don't they have a few aeronautical engineers working around that place?"

If this has been a known problem for some time, and it has had a "high priority" to get it fixed, what is taking so long? Maybe the fix isn't as easy as they were praying it would be. . . I'm at a point where I would like to get this handled now. Not after a 100 hours and cracks in the skin that will live there forever.

Issuing a service bulletin? That would indicate to me that they will come up with a fix, you'll need to comply. . . and they will be more than happy to SELL you the parts to fix THEIR engineering problem. That doesn't even begin to take in to account the man hours. . . waiting. . .
 
Am I the only one that is concerned and a bit disappointed by this revelation?

You spend upwards of nearly $50K on a kit, and it develops skin cracks in the first 100 hours. Since it's not safety of flight, they seem to be okay with the situation, but are working a fix? I'm sorry, skin cracks in the first 100 hours of a NEW airplane, from this customers stand point. . . is a problem.

The kit manufacturer has known about it as the factory demonstrators have both experienced this problem. When, and for how long? I would probably be a little more understanding if this was only happening to builder airplanes due to the ametuer nature and skill set of the home builder. The factory airplanes were built by very skillful multi time builders. The demonstrator has been in the field for nearly 5 years.

Why hasn't the fix been figured out before now? 30 some plus airplanes completed and at least one that we know of has cracks. That airplane was built by a multi time builder as well. What is there in the way of tail kits sold? Must be pushing 500 by now. We now see an email from the company president that dates back to April. . . they're on it? Like a fellow builder just said to me, "don't they have a few aeronautical engineers working around that place?"

If this has been a known problem for some time, and it has had a "high priority" to get it fixed, what is taking so long? Maybe the fix isn't as easy as they were praying it would be. . . I'm at a point where I would like to get this handled now. Not after a 100 hours and cracks in the skin that will live there forever.

Issuing a service bulletin? That would indicate to me that they will come up with a fix, you'll need to comply. . . and they will be more than happy to SELL you the parts to fix THEIR engineering problem. That doesn't even begin to take in to account the man hours. . . waiting. . .

Jason,

I completely agree.....What's taking so long to come up with the fix?
I understand 'teething issues' with a new model of anything but this one is overdue.
 
Vitriol can be motivating. . . and opinions. . .

I'm just a customer, with a significant investment in a product from a reputable firm, that would like some answers.
 
Since it's not safety of flight, they seem to be okay with the situation, but are working a fix? I'm sorry, skin cracks in the first 100 hours of a NEW airplane, from this customers stand point. . . is a problem.

The first point that should be understood is that just because amateur builders have seen cracks in only 100 hrs, it shouldn't be assumed that the factory airplanes did as well (they did not).

As airplane designs go, whether you think so or not, the RV-14 is still very new in the context problems that show up because of time in service. This a the reality of aircraft throughout the world. It is no different with RV's

As mentioned previously, this is currently an engineers primary project (and he is not going to OSH so there wont be any hold-up from that) so there should be recommend solution soon.
 
Thank you Scott. I get that it's a new design. With just about somewhere between 30-40 airplanes flying, at least 3 showing up with the cracks, that's possibly 10% of the flying fleet so far. Couple that with the somewhat alarming pictures posted to this thread. From a customer, builder, and future owner/operator stand point, this is discomforting. How many hours do the demonstrators have on them now?

Of the flying airplanes, how many have reported to Vans the presence of cracks caused by this stiffener design? How about the oil canning? Is the presence of the oil canning, especially the pretty severe example shared on this thread, something we should be concerned with structurally in the future?

Have you guys contacted the owners of flying airplanes to inform them of this issue? I was just on the website and I don't see anything letting builders/owners of completed airplanes know that this could be happening and what to be on the look out for. Just seems to me that it would be a good idea to get out in front on this one. This thread was started in mid June, yet it appears that you guys have known about it for some time. I hope you're not relying on VAF to get out information to your customers of this importance.
 
Thank you Scott. I get that it's a new design. With just about somewhere between 30-40 airplanes flying, at least 3 showing up with the cracks, that's possibly 10% of the flying fleet so far. Couple that with the somewhat alarming pictures posted to this thread. From a customer, builder, and future owner/operator stand point, this is discomforting. How many hours do the demonstrators have on them now?

Of the flying airplanes, how many have reported to Vans the presence of cracks caused by this stiffener design? How about the oil canning? Is the presence of the oil canning, especially the pretty severe example shared on this thread, something we should be concerned with structurally in the future?

Have you guys contacted the owners of flying airplanes to inform them of this issue? I was just on the website and I don't see anything letting builders/owners of completed airplanes know that this could be happening and what to be on the look out for. Just seems to me that it would be a good idea to get out in front on this one. This thread was started in mid June, yet it appears that you guys have known about it for some time. I hope you're not relying on VAF to get out information to your customers of this importance.

Jason,
Your complaints will get a lot more traction of you call and talk with someone at Van's, so if what you have heard here does not satisfy you, I suggest you do that.

As has already been mentioned numerous times, this is not a safety of fight issue (especially for an airplane like yours that is only partially built) so there is nor urgency for posting something on the web site before there is a solution.
 
While I share the concerns about cracking skins, I have have confidence in Vansaircraft coming up with a workable solution and would rather they had time to get that right. For those of us still building we are fortunate that others are teasing out any teething issues so we do not face the same pain.
If vans were concerned about safety of flight I am sure they would issue a notice very promptly given all the libel laws in the U.S.
 
I?m an RV14 builder, and I posted pictures of my oil canning. I read Mitch?s letter as acknowledging that there is an issue, including the factory demo planes, with oil canning, and that this is not a structural or safety of flight issue. Oil canning has been evident on many Vans models - it is not new.

I believe that the skin cracks that people are concerned about (photos in this thread) are the result of an inappropriate repair - a failed ?experiment? and not the result of a built-per-plans aircraft. I also installed stiffeners, not connected to the bulkhead, so I may be at risk of cracks as pointed out by Mel (although I have 200 hours since installation without issue). If the skins crack, I see that as my failed experiment, not Vans, as I could have lived with the oil canning - it probably would not even show after painting.

Chill people.
 
The pictures I posted in this thread are stock RV14 stiffeners, as per plans, in the tail cone of the fuselage. We reported this to Van’s staff in late December 2017
 
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Cracks

I'm building a RV-14 and very grateful for the forum and for Vans and how they back there product.
I think those that are impatient need to relax. Yes, it is huge investment of time and money. But from my experience Van's is the very best out there, by far. And the end result, once they send down and SB will work. It might be unpleasant to physically do. But the end product is something you can rely on and trust. Isn't that the most important!
"If it was easy everybody would be doing it"
Larry
 
Oil canning and skin cracks

FWIW I have no cracks in evidence after 280 hours on our -14A, but....

1. In the 51 years I've been flying light airplanes I have owned several and built three and long ago learned this reality: unanticipated problems always occur and you have to deal with them by first determining your options, evaluating the pros and cons of each and then selecting the best one.

2. In addition to the annual condition inspection I also do 25 and 50 hours inspections of my own design. Each of these includes laying on the creeper and cleaning the belly. But that also gives me the opportunity to inspect all those rivets and stringers too. As I said, so far so good on our airplane but I am confident Van's will come up with a solution to cracking for those who have encountered it. That solution may or may not be applicable to existing airplanes which, like mine, have not had the problem. I encourage builders to await feedback on a Van's solution prior to trying to solve it yourself. As they said, this is not an airworthiness matter.

3. To reduce/eliminate both oil canning and fuselage skin vibration that occurred on our -8A (1700 hours and sold) and -14A, I installed sound and vibration damping panels from Spruce (part number 09-30206). These are effective, light weight and inexpensive. The adhesive backing allows quick and easy installation on the inside of the fuselage in areas with oil canning. They not only stop the noise but also damp skin vibration over a wide area and I'm certain that reduces the likelihood of localized cracking.
 
FWIW I have no cracks in evidence after 280 hours on our -14A, but....

1. In the 51 years I've been flying light airplanes I have owned several and built three and long ago learned this reality: unanticipated problems always occur and you have to deal with them by first determining your options, evaluating the pros and cons of each and then selecting the best one.

2. In addition to the annual condition inspection I also do 25 and 50 hours inspections of my own design. Each of these includes laying on the creeper and cleaning the belly. But that also gives me the opportunity to inspect all those rivets and stringers too. As I said, so far so good on our airplane but I am confident Van's will come up with a solution to cracking for those who have encountered it. That solution may or may not be applicable to existing airplanes which, like mine, have not had the problem. I encourage builders to await feedback on a Van's solution prior to trying to solve it yourself. As they said, this is not an airworthiness matter.

3. To reduce/eliminate both oil canning and fuselage skin vibration that occurred on our -8A (1700 hours and sold) and -14A, I installed sound and vibration damping panels from Spruce (part number 09-30206). These are effective, light weight and inexpensive. The adhesive backing allows quick and easy installation on the inside of the fuselage in areas with oil canning. They not only stop the noise but also damp skin vibration over a wide area and I'm certain that reduces the likelihood of localized cracking.

Bill, would you happen to have any pictures of the -14A with the damping panels installed?
 
Sorry, but I don't. However, it isn't very complicated.

On the ground I determined the center of oil canning by just pressing in on sections of the fuselage aft of the baggage bulkhead. Problem areas were not hard to find. I believe I installed 4 panels, two on each side. These were the six inch wide panels from Spruce but you could certainly use wider ones if you wished.

I did not fill an entire rectangular section between bulkheads and stringers but just placed the strips on what appeared to be the center of oil canning. But I cut the strips long enough to run from bulkhead to bulkhead in the fore and aft direction.

The major reason I did not fill the entire area was that this is a flying airplane. Getting back there with the pitch servo, ADS-B box and elevator pushrods installed while supporting your body weight with one hand and then trying to carefully fit in multiple pieces with the other was more than I felt necessary.

One incentive was that often after landing and near shutdown I'd hear a definite bang from the back of the plane as the cooled fuselage heated in sunlight. This didn't sound appealing (!) and was disconcerting to pax who did not know what was happening. The sound deadening material solved that.

Bill
 
Any update on a modification/repair to prevent lower fuselage cracking? I would like to install before first flight, if possible.
 
I spoke with one of the engineering types at Oshkosh (sorry, I don?t remember his name). As I understood him, the fix is finalized and the next step is getting the drawings done. I?m sure they?ll then need to be reviewed and a quantity of the parts produced before the kit is released. As he explained it to me, it will be a clip that bridges the bulkhead and ties it to the J-channel. In a number of locations, I?m sure.
 
Thanks for the update from Oshkosh

I also asked at Oshkosh and Sterling said I was the second person asking but he had no clue there was an issue. Really glad to hear it is being addressed.
Thanks again, Larry
 
Still nothing from Vans regarding a repair for cracks in metal

I checked today and still no service bulletin has been issued for a repair of the cracks or for a fix to prevent them for new builders. Has anyone heard anything from Vans? Allegedly they had their engineers working on it...
Problem is that they were informed of this as early as December 2017.
 
J Channel Stiffener clips

It looks like an update to chapter 10 was posted today that shows stiffener clips that attach the j-channels to the bulkhead.
 
I spoke with Sterling today, and he checked with someone else, and told me Van's would have word out "in about three weeks." I will look at the chapter 10 update to see if that is the fix. Mitch told me a month or so ago that all affected 14 builders would get an e-mail and that they would also post on the Van's website and here on the forum. It should be obvious when the solution becomes available.
 
I took a look at the new section 10: looks like two simple clips that will rivet to the aft bulkhead (the one with rudder cable crossover) and the two outboard j-channels. Pretty simple except for access - will require crawling back or having amazingly agile arms reaching through from the aft deck area. Two rivets on each J-channel would have to be drilled out, and I'm assuming match-drilling the clip to the bulkhead.
 
I took a look at the new section 10: looks like two simple clips that will rivet to the aft bulkhead (the one with rudder cable crossover) and the two outboard j-channels. Pretty simple except for access - will require crawling back or having amazingly agile arms reaching through from the aft deck area. Two rivets on each J-channel would have to be drilled out, and I'm assuming match-drilling the clip to the bulkhead.
I suspect those clips will be already drilled for the stiffener since those are dimpled and match drilling them would be a bit harder. The clips are expected to be ready in Oct or so.
 
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