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Lean of Peak

Yukon said:
Allan,

Not a great example here. Air racing engines blow up with startling regularity.
I'm very sure high temps are definitely part of the reason for this. We are talking about airplanes that are expected to transport people safely for the TBO life of the engine. Adequate cooling is a must.

Rv-8's have had temperature problems with 200 hp since day one. Manageable, but problemmatic. No doubt plenums and good baffleing play a role, as does inlet and outlet size.

John

John, Engine performance actually has nothing (well, not entirely true), to do with cowling inlet sizes.... Speed does (incoming airflow) along with how well the baffling/plenum routes airflow. To be right honest with you, outlet size/routing probably has more to do with cooling than inlet size.

While I used the Racers as a dramatic example, it's true of more traditional airplanes. Look at a Glasair III or II. One has a IO-540 the other a 360, both use a very small inlet size, in fact, I believe the III's is smaller than the II's.

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but the F1 is a much quicker ship than your 6/7/8/9 and it has a much longer cowling and engine mount. This allows for smoother transitions thru the "flow path" of the cooling air, less cowling drag and smaller inlet sizes - as compared to a 6/7/8/9 with a shorter cowling, slower speeds, and less smoothed cooling air "flow path".

I just wanted to make the point, that for a given engine, speed, etc, there is *no* way to make a comparison based upon inlet sizes alone.
 
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RV Cooling

Allan,

I understand what you are saying. All factors influence cooling. I've got to assume Milt built his airplane according to spec, and it appears he has been fighting cooling problems for almost 300 hrs. Now what.....

I'd start another thead, but I don't know how. Somebody do it.....let's call it RV Cooling!

John
 
Good idea on a new thread. We have done extensive research on cooling and baffles for about ten years. Some of what I learned was startlingly in contrast to what I learned as an A&P.

Nothing like hard data to serve one up another plate of crow!
 
Who is "we" Walter?

Walter Atkinson said:
Good idea on a new thread. We have done extensive research on cooling and baffles for about ten years. Some of what I learned was startlingly in contrast to what I learned as an A&P.

Nothing like hard data to serve one up another plate of crow!
Walter,

Who exactly is "WE"? [snipped by dr]
John
 
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Cooling is interesting, and often counter-intuitive.

Watching video tape of the inside of an engine compartment which has been "tufted" is fascinating. The air often does not go in the direction you think. In fact, in some installations, much of it is going OUT of the inlets during flight.

On one plane, it was learned that you get better ground cooling by pointing the TAIL into the wind during runup on the ground.

I know some of the folks who have done advanced research in engine cooling and baffling. Walter is one (hence the "we" in his post). [He also has crewed on Reno racers, and has some tricks up his sleeve learned there.] Seeing them come up with fixes for specific hot cylinders in various airframe-engine installations is like watching magic.

It's not the size of the inlet holes. It's making the air go where you want.
 
Yukon said:
Where do you get your expectation that a 6 cylinder Lycoming should run on 8.2 gph? At .5 fuel per horsepower per hour, 122 hp should be consuming no less than 10 gph. I flew 540's for years on various spam cans, and seems to me 10-12 gph is what I was burning. Seems my 250 Commanche did about 175 mph on 12 gph.

I guess all us Rocket fliers with tuned injectors are defying your years of experience in spam cans. I only have 85 hours on my Rocket, but I consistently see fuel flows below 10 GPH at cruise (2100 RPM, 23" MAP) running 50 dF LOP. This gives me between 180 KTAS to 185 KTAS at 10K".
 
Numbers

Randy,

And what would that fuel flow be Randy? CHT and oil temps in climb would be appreciated too.

John
 
I'm confused about the "air pressure that goes into the nozzle".

The "nozzles" on my Airflow Performance system are merely tuned orifices. I know that only fuel goes through them.

What is the "upper deck reference AIR pressure"?

Thanks,
Ben Beaird
Plymouth WI
-6A 142 hrs
 
Yukon said:
Randy,

And what would that fuel flow be Randy? CHT and oil temps in climb would be appreciated too.

John
Typically, I cruise around 9.5 GPH, give or take a few tenths. At this power setting, it's hard to get much below that since the AFP flow distributor starts doing some funny things below that.

My oil temp is almost never above 195 dF. Depending upon OAT, oil temp ranges from 175 to 190. CHT's also vary a little by cylinder. I do have a plenum and I see typical CHT's in climb around 390 dF, which decrease down to around 360-370 in cruise.
 
Yukon said:
Good numbers....give Milt a call. What percent power is that for 9.5 gph???

John
I don't recall exactly. My EFIS displays Percent Power, but I don't remember the number. I "think" it is somewhere between 55% and 65%. I could look it up on the Lycoming Power Chart, but don't have one handy.
 
John:

It's "Advanced Pilot Seminars." I appreciate the advertising, but please get it right. :)

Second, it's not the only thing I do! I've been involved in a several different research projects with several different people and companies. Because I am a part-owner in an engine management training company does not mean that I do not participate in auto racing, sailboat racing, airplane racing, airframe and engine research, television production, scuba diving, writing novels, or any of the many other things I enjoy doing.

As for the Baffle projects, that was with two different groups and we have done something that I don't think anyone else has ever done. We tufted an engine compartment and placed a small video camera under it that we could control from the cockpit. We found that the air movement under a cowl or in a plenum in flight does NOT do what we all thought it does. It's movement is nothing like what the conventional wisdom implies and that what I learned as an A&P is not at all what is really happening with the cooling airflow. We learned that most of the air that goes in the cowl is not used for cooling anything. We may just know more about that one, specific issue than anyone--only becasue we took the time to LOOK at what happens, and not *assume* what happens. Watching those videos is... enlightening.

There could be others who've done that, but I'm not aware of it.

"It's not what you don't know that hurts you; it's what you know that isn't so." Boswell

Over the past ten years, I have found that there was a lot I knew to be true that simply wasn't true once I started testing my hypothese. (There's that pesky data again.) I learned the taste of crow. It's not so bad once you get used to it.

The only way I know of to know when you're wrong is to TEST what you think is right and be open-minded about what you observe.

How do you know when you're wrong? Unless you know that, you can never be sure you are right. It's a rather profound concept, don't you think?

I also remember how uncomfortable I became when some of my closely held beliefs were proven wrong. That has changed. Now I'm excited when I learn something new and pleased that I'm no longer mistaken.

Walter
 
Ben:

The NA nozzels should have a little screen that lets high-pressure air from under the cowl, around the injector flow into the injector to mix with the fuel to aid in vaporization. We have pictures of the effect with and without that air and it is dramatic. Some have tried to improve on that in the NA airplane with some limited success. There are few tricks.

The upper deck reference pressure is that pressure that is above the *lower* deck or MP. In a TC'd airplane the MP can be higher than ambient, so a special pressure line goes to the injector to keep this air pressure higher than the MP. Generally, about 3" above the selected MP.

Based on my experience, adding fuel pressure and decreasing the size of the orafice only increases the flow rate of the thinner pencil stream and only marginally improves vaporization. It can actually decrease atomization as it works against the air that wants to come in thorugh the injector screen. The air has a really big affect.

Duzzat help?

Walter
 
Walter Atkinson said:
As for the Baffle projects, that was with two different groups and we have done something that I don't think anyone else has ever done. We tufted an engine compartment and placed a small video camera under it that we could control from the cockpit. We found that the air movement under a cowl or in a plenum in flight does NOT do what we all thought it does. It's movement is nothing like what the conventional wisdom implies and that what I learned as an A&P is not at all what is really happening with the cooling airflow. We learned that most of the air that goes in the cowl is not used for cooling anything. We may just know more about that one, specific issue than anyone--only becasue we took the time to LOOK at what happens, and not *assume* what happens. Watching those videos is... enlightening.
Hi Walter,

Thanks for participating.

Would you mind enlightening us as to what is happening under the cowl during
the videos?

Thanks.
 
Walter (Tondu):

Walter A. might be able to answer, but I know he has to travel on family business this week, and might not have access to the web.

The tufts? Some just sat there and did nothing. The air was not even moving in some areas. In other areas, the air was going the WRONG WAY! It might come in the inlet, circle around, and go back out the inlet, producing very little cooling. Just strange stuff.

Little things make big differences in baffling. Smoothing air flow is a big deal. I watched Walter come up with a fix for a cronically hot 206 engine that no one could fix.

As you might expect, every engine-airframe is different, and Walter can fill in the gaps, but I've seen firsthand how important the baffling is in increasing cooling.

And, if you run cooler, you can run faster. The CHTs often are the limiting factor in increasing HP.
 
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The first thing we learned is that what we learned in A&P school was just, flat, wrong. The air does NOT come in, go to the back plate, pressurize the cowl and go down through the fins. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The BASIC airflow is that the air enters the cowl openning at the outboard edges of the openning. It passes along the outboard edges of the cylinders until it gets to the back plate whereupon it turns inboard and meets the air that came in the other side right over the spine of the engine. This results in the air moving forward along the spine of the engine case toward the spinner where it exits the cowl and goes over the windscreen aft! That's why you get oil spots on the windscreen when you have an oil leak!

Yep, about 70% of the air that comes in a cowl goes right back out the FRONT! That's why smaller opennings, limiting the air IN and baffles blocking the front are very helpful. If one tufts the cowl openning you will be surprised to see about half of those tufts pointing straight forward TOWARD the prop when in flight. That's the air going OUT forward.

The biggest advantage in cooling is created by slowing the air down on top and creating a large deltaP with the lower deck. That allows more air to work it's way through the fins and allow engine heat to move into the air. It is essentially impossible to make intelligent changes in cowl and baffle design unless you can WATCH the airflow with the changes. They can be very counter-intuitive.

We've fixed several problems that have existed for decades and we've run up on some to which the solutions remain elusive. One in particular really has me frustrated and downright chapped--dozens of brilliant ideas and sure-fire solutions have failed over many months of efforts. :(

Walter Atkinson
Advanced Pilot Seminars
 
bryanflood said:
Walter, where can we see the tufting videos of which you are speaking?

Thanks,

Bryan


Bryan,
I?m not sure if that video is publicly distributed. The one I saw at GAMI was taken under the cowl of a Bonanza. Some of the aspects unique to the Bonanza contribute to the observations described above. I did similar work on a Lancair 360 a few years ago and results are as different as the planes tested. RVs will probably fall somewhere in between. Two key features to consider are the size and location of the inlet. The Bonanza has a very large inlet which produces a very low inlet velocity not unlike many GA designs. This causes the air to be slowed before passing through the inlet and produces what is known as external pressure recovery. The engine compartment can only flow so much air no matter how large one makes the inlet. If the pressure across the inlet were uniform, air velocity would be also. Since the inlet on the Bonanza extends all the way in and behind the spinner a large pressure gradient is formed. The area near the spinner will actually be slightly negative. Farther out along the propeller diameter the pressure rises and becomes positive. This sets up the scenario Walter described above. Excess air enters outboard in the inlet and that excess air then exits the inlet inboard near the spinner. On the opposite end of the spectrum is a small inlet placed farther outboard as seen on many home builts. If the inlet is small enough, entering air will flow at aircraft speed. In this case, air does not back up in front of the inlet and the gradient across the face becomes much more uniform. All pressure recovery then takes place when the air slows inside the plenum. Tufting of this configuration showed that all air that came in stayed in just as would be expected. RVs should fall somewhere in between. Some are modified with round inlets and some bring the inlets into the spinner. Depending on the particular configuration being discussed you will see vastly different behavior in airflow, both internally and externally.
 
The work has been done before by others

N91CZ said:
Bryan, Two key features to consider are the size and location of the inlet. The Bonanza has a very large inlet which produces a very low inlet velocity not unlike many GA designs. This causes the air to be slowed before passing through the inlet and produces what is known as external pressure recovery. The engine compartment can only flow so much air no matter how large one makes the inlet. If the pressure across the inlet were uniform, air velocity would be also. Since the inlet on the Bonanza extends all the way in and behind the spinner a large pressure gradient is formed. The area near the spinner will actually be slightly negative (Like a RV). Farther out along the propeller diameter the pressure rises and becomes positive. (See Pic below)

This sets up the scenario Walter described above. Excess air enters outboard in the inlet and that excess air then exits the inlet inboard near the spinner. (Originally seen by Ref. [1])

On the opposite end of the spectrum is a small inlet placed farther outboard as seen on many home builts. If the inlet is small enough, entering air will flow at aircraft speed. In this case, air does not back up in front of the inlet and the gradient across the face becomes much more uniform. (See Pic below)

All pressure recovery then takes place when the air slows inside the plenum. Tufting of this configuration showed that all air that came in stayed in just as would be expected. RVs should fall somewhere in between.

Some are modified with round inlets and some bring the inlets into the spinner. Depending on the particular configuration being discussed you will see vastly different behavior in airflow, both internally and externally.
[1] Ref: "An Experimental Investigation of the Aerodynamics and Cooling of a Horizontally-Opposed Air-Cooled Aircraft Engine Installation", NASA report 3405, Stan J. Miley and Ernest J. Cross, Jr., Texas A&M University; John K. Owens, Mississippi State University, David L. Lawrence; 1981. (note: this is a summary report of research and reports done in late 1970 by the above authors.)


flowofinletsco2.jpg


Bottom line there is a big hole (cowl inlet) and not all of the hole area is doing something, at least useful. In fact from the reverse airflow (near spinner you see above) you might lose air, so why have it? RV builders have tuffed their cowls long ago and have seen the same thing. This is not new.

Making the "hole" smaller (cowl inlet), more aerodynamic, while its placed in better air flow (further out along the prop blade) you gain efficiency. Also using a sealed plenum means less leaks and less loss, allowing further reduction in cowl inlet size.

The round shape of the inlet is convenient for sealing and gets the most of the inlet area as far outboard in "good air" while still fitting form or profile of the cowl (no top secret about round, just practical and it fits).

The size of the hole in your cowl is a mix of requirements for volume and balance with speed of air entering. Too slow (big hole) you get stagnation and spillage air flow and drag around the inlet, especially during high speed cruise. Too fast (small hole) you get turbulent flow inside the duct and plenum and may be not enough volume at slow speeds.

The whole "package" from the inlet, diffuser (part that joins the inlet to the plenum) and plenum is critical. The weak link in the chain analogy fits here. With out all parts working together you lose efficiency. Some guys just cut a round hole in the cowl (including some major certified and kit plane makers) and dump the air into a cavity with out any diffuser. The inlet and diffuser (a continuation of the inlet) is 3 dimensional deal, not just a 2D hole in the face of the cowl. The inlet shape and diffuser is part black magic, art and physics. The problem we have is there is no room for them and the prop is beating the air to death right next to it.

One thing everyone does is make the inlets symmetric. Really they should be shaped and angled differently to account for prop flow. In high speed level cruise the prop effect is smaller, but minor shape optimizing could be done to the inlets left to right. However people like to see symmetry, if for no other reason aesthetics.

Soft seals against the cowl is marginal, as discoverd by Ref [1]. Some make nice decent seals, but over time it usually degrades. The more air you have leaking from the high pressure area above the cylinders to the low pressure area below the cylinders (with out going through the cylinders), is in a word, wasteful. The more you reduce the differential pressure the less cooling you get, a lose-lose situation.


The so called Lopresti speed merchant cowls, Barnard "Holy Cowl" or "Sam James" cowl's are really just the off shoot the basic principles Miley and company at Mississippi State showed in the late 70's. However hats off to all those Gents for making the theory into hardware, espcially for RV's. Not to take away from GAMI's video or research, but giving credit where credit is due, Miley and company where first.


A crude picture I made showing the pressure distribution from the prop the
further you go from the spinner and general flow of stock RV and modified
cowl with widely spaced round inlets, sealed to a less leak prone plenum.
inletradiusgeometry3cfu0.jpg
 
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Back to Primary School

Sorry to bring this excellent discourse down, but I need to ask some very basic questions about leaning. I purchased an already built -4 with an AeroSport Power O-320. Love it. All of my previous time was in C172's, about 240 hours worth. Here's what we were taught about leaning and how to do it:

1) Only lean above 3000 ft. MSL;

2) Begin by slowly pulling the mixture knob out until the engine begins to run rough. Stop;

3) Slowly push the mixture knob in until the engine smoothes out. Stop;

4) Leave mixture alone until beginning decent for landing;

5) Push mixture knob in fully. Leave alone.

6) Don't ask questions about why we did what we did as it is complicated and you really don't need to worry about it.

Here's the problem. This is exactly what I'm doing in my -4. I'm embarrassed to say that I have EGT and CHT digital displays including the ability to scroll and view all cylinder temps, only the hottest, etc., but other than knowing temps are in the "normal range", I absolutely do not know what I'm looking at. Can someone dumb down how I can know "lean of peak" etc.? Am I hurting my engine by not managing more precisely the EGT and CHT numbers?

Again, sorry to dumb down this thread, but I'm not an engineer or mechanical and would like to have a "leaning 101" course (the current thread is graduate level in my world).

Thx

Steve
 
Sorry to bring this excellent discourse down, but I need to ask some very basic questions about leaning. I purchased an already built -4 with an AeroSport Power O-320. Love it. All of my previous time was in C172's, about 240 hours worth. Here's what we were taught about leaning and how to do it:

1) Only lean above 3000 ft. MSL;

2) Begin by slowly pulling the mixture knob out until the engine begins to run rough. Stop;

3) Slowly push the mixture knob in until the engine smoothes out. Stop;

4) Leave mixture alone until beginning decent for landing;

5) Push mixture knob in fully. Leave alone.

6) Don't ask questions about why we did what we did as it is complicated and you really don't need to worry about it.

Here's the problem. This is exactly what I'm doing in my -4. I'm embarrassed to say that I have EGT and CHT digital displays including the ability to scroll and view all cylinder temps, only the hottest, etc., but other than knowing temps are in the "normal range", I absolutely do not know what I'm looking at. Can someone dumb down how I can know "lean of peak" etc.? Am I hurting my engine by not managing more precisely the EGT and CHT numbers?

Again, sorry to dumb down this thread, but I'm not an engineer or mechanical and would like to have a "leaning 101" course (the current thread is graduate level in my world).

Thx

Steve

Thanks Steve!

Like Steve I'm not an engineer, just an old cub driver from Alaska transplanted to the lower 48. I recently completed -7 with a Lycoming O-360 and Hartzell blended airfoil prop. After reading all these posts my head is about to explode. Like Steve I've always leaned to roughness at cruise power then rich until smooth. With ~13 hours in my -7 I'd like those with the same set up to PM me with what they use for cruise power and rpm settings. I have a EDM-900 with all temps and fuel flow.

Thank you,

Fritz
 
Folks this is an old thread, and I have been answering similar questions on another thread.

I am using my iPad right now but when I get to the office I will write a much easier to understand explanation that will hopefully lift the fog for you all.

David
 
Fritz, I am sure we were all taught the same things as shown above, the problem is very little of what we were taught was DATA BACKED, FACT BASED SCIENCE.

I could suggest you do a couple of things, firstly, the first 4 posts on this thread is a good start. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=75132

Also this group of articles, read them all, but pay particular attention to the last four, print these off and read them daily for about 7 times each. http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182544-1.html

Spend a few $$ and invest in your knowledge and safety. http://www.advancedpilot.com/

Now lets try to answer the question you raised and the chap above back in 2007. I would say first, the answers are above, the most significant would be the course, and a live course is on in Ada in July just before Oshkosh.

When you have a EMS of some sort all it does is bury you in data, knowing the science behind it all helps you determine what is going on when you are presented with that data. Some are finite value limits, some are trends.

For example, I have my yellow range CHT on 380-400 and Red 400+. Some would say that Lycoming talk about 450 and 500 being the limits, but in some cases by the time the alarm triggers at say 450-500, its too late.

Others like EGT, there is no bad EGT number, it all depends. The exception to this rule is TIT, where the Turbine Inlet temperature is all about the tubine and its health. EGT is just a number and we are using it as a tool to know where we are in the Lean to Rich spectrum relative to a known point on the curve, known as Peak EGT.

As for cruise power, well down low you can cruise at 21" and leaned as much as you like, but the sweet spot would be 10LOP, at 28" down low, 60F LOP would be better.

Up higher full throttle, RPM where it is smooth, 2200-2700 whatever you like most for the mission intended, and lean according to what you learned from the above references.

The idea of rules of thumb is fine, but very restrictive. With a bit of education and trying it for yourself, you will come to understand. This is the key.

One other thing.....and I will copy this from another post I made just a few minutes ago..............

What I can see here is you are operating just fine, but according to a set of "Rules of Thumb", and while that works, and is great, how good is your understanding? Mine is at the point where I know a darn lot more than I used to, but I realise now there is a darn lot more I want to learn. And who knows where it will end. I am amazed at what I once did not know, and even now I am not sure what I still dont know.

So, you and your family are cruising along over the Rockies at night and fat dumb and happy at FL140 and the lowest safe is no much below that, kids playing angry birds on their ipods, wife looking at the pretty stars and moon, few whisps of cloud creating an awesome picture.

You notice a drop in egt on Cylinder 5 and a few seconds later a CHT climbing up. You set your red line CHT at 500F because that is the Book Limit. The alarm will not go off for ages if it climbs that high, but luckily you happened to see it.

What is happening in Cyl 5 and what should you do?

YOU HAVE LESS THAN 60 SECONDS TO ANSWER THIS.

If you do not know exactly what to do, please invest in $395, don't do it because I said so, don't do it for your own ego or whatever.....think of your lovely wife and children who just died in this mind flight.

Some of you may find this a bit alarming and confrontational. But I gave a lecture just last weekend, and much to my surpise a guy in the audience had this exact thing happen, just over water not the Rockies. He had a certified aircraft with only one single EGT/CHT. By sheer fluke he did the right thing. He was 60 seconds away from going swimming in a rather shark rich environment. His engine just lived long enough to make a small sandy strip on the island closest to him.

He had a 1 in 4 chance those probes were on that cylinder, otherwise he would never have known.

Check your PM's :)
 
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