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Time to throw in the towel...

I'm sorry it took so long to reply to this thread. It did become a lot bigger than I expected, and I do appreciate all the support and kindness I have encountered here!

I have completed the vertical stabilizer and the rudder (although I am not completely satisfied with them, and may redo them in the future), and am currently working on the anti servo tabs, specifically dealing with riveting the control horns (HS-1220 L & R) to the ribs (HS-1222). I've also done the RV training project. However, the rivet squeezer and solid rivets are still my bane. I didn't really have much trouble with the v-stab (although I did have to replace the main spar and a couple brackets when I mis-drilled them), but the rudder and the AST are another story. I think part of my problem is with how thin and flexible the material is on the ribs. Even though I have them cleco'd together, when I squeeze the rivets I end up with 1) a gap between the horn and the rib and 2) the rib dimples around the shop head.

With the rudder I had the same issue with riveting the rib (R-1203) to the rudder horn (WD-1205). After spending time reading the forums, I put the manufactured head on the rib (thin) side with the shop head on the rudder horn (thick) side. This solved the problem with the rudder (although if Scott tells me this is unacceptable I will go back and change it). The AST control horns are countersunk so obviously I can't do this with them. I must figure out what I am doing wrong and correct my technique.

I've ordered another practice kit to to try to get back to basics with solid rivets, and will do it before I re-start the anti servo tabs.

On a completely unrelated note (and I will also post this in the Classified forum) I have an air conditioned room at UW-Oshkosh for all seven days of Airventure. The friend who was going to come with me had to back out so there will be a bed available if anyone needs it. The room is already paid for.
 
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... the rivet squeezer and solid rivets are still my bane.
I had a problem with this as well until I bit the bullet and got a Cleveland Main Squeeze rivet squeezer. Not only did the quality of my squeezed rivets suddenly improve but it was way easier to use. My original squeezer simply required too much muscle and that led to poor quality rivets. A bit pricey but, to me, well worth the cost. It turned the part of the job I really dreaded into one that was easy.
 
Main squeeze is a great tool, I have not wanted a pneumatic yet.... then again wings are coming up

having everything secure and well lit helps, you just need an EAA guy be there for you.

I would have not done another practice kit, but got a eaa guy or VAF guys favorite beer and see how easy it can be done,

I am in to my VS and scared every day, but my EAA pals show up or text me encouragement..

I wish you the best!!
 
Another trick I learned here on the forum was to put a piece of clear tubing over the shop head side of the rivet that is slightly longer than the rivet shank extending. What this does is that when you start squeezing the rivet the tubing compresses and pushes the thin metal together so there is no gap when you set the rivet. I had issues like you did with rivet expanding and thin metal not being tightly together. After using this technique have not had to his happen again. 1/8 or 3/16 iD tubing works best. Glad to hear you are continuing on.
 
I had a problem with this as well until I bit the bullet and got a Cleveland Main Squeeze rivet squeezer. Not only did the quality of my squeezed rivets suddenly improve but it was way easier to use. My original squeezer simply required too much muscle and that led to poor quality rivets. A bit pricey but, to me, well worth the cost. It turned the part of the job I really dreaded into one that was easy.

That's one of the aggravating things, I AM using a Cleveland Main Squeeze... :confused:
 
Solid Rivets

Modifications to the Avery or any other rivet squeezer can make squeezing rivets easy. Search for my post "Improvements to the Avery Rivet Squeezer" This allows the squeezer to be operated with one hand and the parts can be positioned with the other hand.
 
If there's room, one way I’ve eliminated the gap is to use a Cleco side-grip clamp in addition to regular Clecoes to hold the two pieces of material together.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/1-Cleko-Clamp/productinfo/CLC100/#.WRkdynCSIvY

Put the side-grip clamp as close as possible to the rivet you are about to set and start to squeeze. You won’t be able to squeeze the rivet completely because the clamp will be in the way, but often times you can squeeze it enough that the rivet will start to expand and will hold the two pieces of metal together without a gap. You then remove the side-grip clamp and finish squeezing the rivet the usual way.
 
If there's room, one way I?ve eliminated the gap is to use a Cleco side-grip clamp in addition to regular Clecoes to hold the two pieces of material together.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/1-Cleko-Clamp/productinfo/CLC100/#.WRkdynCSIvY

Put the side-grip clamp as close as possible to the rivet you are about to set and start to squeeze. You won?t be able to squeeze the rivet completely because the clamp will be in the way, but often times you can squeeze it enough that the rivet will start to expand and will hold the two pieces of metal together without a gap. You then remove the side-grip clamp and finish squeezing the rivet the usual way.

I've done the same thing and it works quite well. I've also used small C clamps with the same result.

Jim
 
I'm not sure this is something that you can afford, but as a first time builder I received a very large amount of help/instruction/confidence by attending one of the synergy air classes last fall before starting on my RV-12:

http://synergyair.com/builder-classes/

That and having a mentor from my local EAA chapter has been an huge positive start to my build. We are just about to finish the wings this week.

The folks at Synergy build 12's you can fly away. They are very patient and instructive and if it comes to it will probably be able to tell you if you are actually capable of building safely or not (like everyone else, I think you'll finish successfully - but I have made it a habit of telling everyone who helps me: if you think I'm not capable of doing this safely please tell me even if it hurts my feelings).
 
I think throwing in the towel is a valid option if that's what you want to do; none of us can tell you how you should feel.

However, the fact you said you're ordering replacement parts tells me you're not ready to throw in the towel.

So, what you need is some builder's motivation.

Over the years a few times I've tried to organize a national day of RV flying where pilots of completed RVs take builders for a ride as part of the necessary therapy of the long process of building.

Why it's never taken off -- no pun intended -- I don't know, but let's get you in the air in an RV-12 to see if it's something that can recharge things.

Let's see if there's someone in Arkansas will to fly over and spend some time with you (if I still had my RV, I'd fly down from MN).

Anyone?

In the meantime, drop me a phone number and maybe we can chat on the phone and I can be available as your personal sounding board and talk you through things when you need that.

As for your rivet squeezer problem, I know exactly what parts you're talking about and I know exactly what your problem is you're having and why you're having it and I can fix it for you in about 2 seconds and you'll never have to worry about it again. You do NOT need to do anything fancy or out of the ordinary and you don't have to order anything expensive. The problem is the part you're trying to squeeze isn't being held down. Don't go spending a much of money on a new squeezer.

On the RV-12 on those rivets you're talking about -- and don't ask me why -- the tendency of the work is to turn as you squeeze, which puts the rivet head out of alignment with your squeezer. That's going to happen every time; ask me how I know.

Squeezing these rivets won't work (or at least it won't work well), unless you clamp down the assembly and then squeeze. Also you want to orient the squeezer so at the beginning of the squeeze you're putting pressure on the shop head (as I recall the parts you describe, I actually had to pull slightly on the squeezer) I can walk you through it.
 
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I'm sorry it took so long to reply to this thread. It did become a lot bigger than I expected, and I do appreciate all the support and kindness I have encountered here!

.....

When I started out, I ordered 2 sheets (2'x2') of aluminium of every width I would find in my kit. I use those to practice on when I am about to go into 'riveting' mode. It's saved me.

YMMV
 
I'm in Fayetteville

Hey! I am in Fayetteville and I have been co-building a 9a with my aunt (builder of an early rv-6a) and the kit was a project that was purchased (poor build quality). So I have had tons of practice drilling out bad rivets and squeezing in the new ones. Not saying I am a genius but I'm pretty good with a squeezer if you wanted to meet up I would be happy to look it over with you and lend assistance where I can.
 
As for your rivet squeezer problem, I know exactly what parts you're talking about and I know exactly what your problem is you're having and why you're having it and I can fix it for you in about 2 seconds and you'll never have to worry about it again. You do NOT need to do anything fancy or out of the ordinary and you don't have to order anything expensive. The problem is the part you're trying to squeeze isn't being held down. Don't go spending a much of money on a new squeezer.

On the RV-12 on those rivets you're talking about -- and don't ask me why -- the tendency of the work is to turn as you squeeze, which puts the rivet head out of alignment with your squeezer. That's going to happen every time; ask me how I know.

Squeezing these rivets won't work (or at least it won't work well), unless you clamp down the assembly and then squeeze. Also you want to orient the squeezer so at the beginning of the squeeze you're putting pressure on the shop head (as I recall the parts you describe, I actually had to pull slightly on the squeezer) I can walk you through it.

That may be a lot of it. I have a hard time trying to clamp the work down (I also worry about damaging the work by clamping too hard). I'm also trying to keep pressure on the manufacture head but in the process I know I'm flexing the rib a little.
 
That may be a lot of it. I have a hard time trying to clamp the work down (I also worry about damaging the work by clamping too hard). I'm also trying to keep pressure on the manufacture head but in the process I know I'm flexing the rib a little.

Clamp it down by the flange on a rib or two. Put a small piece of thin wood (I use those Home Depot shims) on the flange, and clamp it to a -- preferably -- EAA Chapter 1000 workbenches using your typical bar clamp.

This will make all the difference in the world and when you see your perfectly squeezed rivets (you know you've squeezed to the proper diameter when you feel a pain shooting up your arm. :) ) , you'll kick yourself for not doing it earlier.
 
Hey! I am in Fayetteville and I have been co-building a 9a with my aunt (builder of an early rv-6a) and the kit was a project that was purchased (poor build quality). So I have had tons of practice drilling out bad rivets and squeezing in the new ones. Not saying I am a genius but I'm pretty good with a squeezer if you wanted to meet up I would be happy to look it over with you and lend assistance where I can.

I would welcome that opportunity. I have a hard time meeting up with anyone from the local EAA chapter because of my work schedule (I work nights and weekends).
 
Clamp it down by the flange on a rib or two. Put a small piece of thin wood (I use those Home Depot shims) on the flange, and clamp it to a -- preferably -- EAA Chapter 1000 workbenches using your typical bar clamp.

This will make all the difference in the world and when you see your perfectly squeezed rivets (you know you've squeezed to the proper diameter when you feel a pain shooting up your arm. :) ) , you'll kick yourself for not doing it earlier.

I'm building in my (tiny) dining room at the moment so I don't have room for the EAA table (although I do have the plans). I will have to find someplace bigger when I start the tail cone as it won't fit out my door! :rolleyes: I've been thinking about my bigger (but still rather small) two car garage but I need to find a place for my motorcycle and car first. I'm also on the waiting list at the airport but it's a long list.

All that said i will clamp as advised when the new parts arrive!
 
I made the forward fuselage cover on my RV4 5 times. Granted, the holes had already been drilled in the structure underneath and dimpled by the previous owner of the project, so I was not match drilling. Picking up on dimpled holes on a curved piece is tricky.

The rear fuse skin took 3 tries, at $85 a try. And I am still not happy with it. I might do it again.

In the end I have used almost all the scrapped aluminum for various other parts - baffles, interior parts etc. And various airport scroungers have made off with the rest of it. So it all worked out. Certainly you need to get some help with your technique. Then it will be much more fun and satisfying. It is tough learning on your own.

You need to be a stubborn #$% to build one of these. You will get way better at riveting. The size of your scrap pile will probably depend on how much help you get to avoid the usual pitfalls. Relearning all those lessons can be time consuming.
 
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Come see us at TruTrak (KASG)

If you ever need a flying break...

We would gladly give you a motivation ride in our company RV-10 (we used to have a 12, but no longer own that aircraft...or I would offer it).

Come see us, let's have a beer and talk about airplanes.
 
If you ever need a flying break...

We would gladly give you a motivation ride in our company RV-10 (we used to have a 12, but no longer own that aircraft...or I would offer it).

Come see us, let's have a beer and talk about airplanes.

Jim has that 12 now, doesn't he? I've seen it at the 732 Chapter meetings (those few I'm actually able to make). Thank you, I will take you up on that as soon as my schedule allows!
 
Eric,
Nice to meet you, thanks for showing us around. My Lil Guy enjoyed the hangar flying! Sorry I couldn't offer a ride this time, remember as long as the work is airworthy most of the cosmetic mistakes made are long forgotten and become pretty minor after it's flying. Yes, it's so worth it!

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452FCFFC-D5E2-4013-A1A7-54666A183D49_zpsdhgdv6kl.jpg


8CA34B41-9A6E-40B8-A54A-4D1DCF1FA652_zpsdw3r8q5j.jpg
 
Jim has that 12 now, doesn't he? I've seen it at the 732 Chapter meetings (those few I'm actually able to make). Thank you, I will take you up on that as soon as my schedule allows!

Yes, Jim has it now. Just give us a shout and let us know when you can make it over.
 
I thought of one more suggestion. After cleco'ing every thing together are you reaming with a #30 ream the holes to final size before you try to rivet them? I had to do that for every hole so far on my RV-12. Once the holes are reamed getting the two parts to mate successfully typically can be done by simply squeezing them together with my fingers. I did have to use clamps on the bracket that attaches to the nose ribs on the flaperons to get those pieces to mate successfully.
 
I've had a few times where it all seems a little too much. Mainly when things go wrong or you just don't seem to be making any forward progress. I'm getting closer to the end of my build but still wonder sometimes if i will be able to finish it.

Sometimes a break helps, sometimes just talking it over with someone can put it in perspective (here or elsewhere). I'd avoid talking to non builders about it though as most will think you are mad and attempting the impossible so won't always give helpful advice.
If you get to the point of giving up/selling etc, I would suggest having a break for a couple of weeks before doing anything as it normally passes after a while.

As for the rivets I had some issues with them expanding in the middle of two parts and used a similar method as mentioned above (with the tubing) but using tap washers (all I had at the time).
The main things when squeezing is to keep the parts together and the squeezer flush, and not to over squeeze/use too long a rivet as it can cause the parts to bow away from each other (especially on bearing brackets).
Below is a picture of my 'tap washer' being used, This time I have the squeezer in a vice rather than the parts (I often find it is easier that way round, especially for nutplates and dimpling). The tubing will be easier to squeeze and it will also stay on and hold the rivet in place, the washer has a tendency to drop on the floor just when you have everything setup, and you can bet when you are bending down to pick them up the rivet drops out as you nudge it with your arm, oh and you will hit your head on something when standing back upright, but that is the fun of building :p
rivet%2Bsaver.jpg


As for space I find it slows the build down a lot and can be very frustrating but has the added bonus that not only are you building an aircraft yourself (something everyone should be proud of) you are also doing it in harder conditions than most so it adds to the achievement as well as the frustration.

If you can get an hour with an existing builder/inspector you will learn more in that time than weeks of going through it on your own, I would highly recommend it if you get the opportunity.
I was lucky enough to do a LAA 'working with aluminium' one day course here in the uk (run by other builders) and I believe that saved me 50-100 hours of building time at least (as you get tips that will cut down on the reworking time).
That said I have lost count of the number of rivets I have had to drill out, normally when tired or rushing but luckily I have managed to avoid too many replacement parts so far.
You will screw up some more stuff before it is over, but you will learn the skills to fix it on here or elsewhere which will pay off even after you have finished.
Everyone goes though up and downs during building. Remember you are building an aircraft which is a big undertaking.
But it's like the old question 'how do you eat an elephant'.
...
'One mouthful at a time'.
 
One of the things I've noticed -- often while crying -- is it's REALLY different building an RV-12 compared to the RV-7 because the aluminum we're working with is so thin.

I've never been real good at drilling out rivets and with the thin aluminum, it can be problematic doing so.

I have really had to work at going slower and considering lots of thing about the work and what I'm about to do on this kit than the 7. It's a good habit to get into, I acknowledge, but I feel so much more pressure not to make a mistake than I ever did with the "7"
 
One of the things I've noticed -- often while crying -- is it's REALLY different building an RV-12 compared to the RV-7 because the aluminum we're working with is so thin.

My first practice kit (before I started the 12) was the mini-stabilizer piece. I'm doing the tool box now. The material on both is much thicker than the 12, and I've not had much if any problem with either. This reinforces my thinking that my problem is the thin material on the 12. A previous post talked about acquiring thin aluminum sheets to practice with and I think that I should do that.
 
That's roughly what I did. I made a channel with 2" web height, 5/8" flanges from some .032. And then I cut some strips of .025 and riveted them to the channel's flanges. The sizes and shapes are roughly typical of my RV-3B project.

Then I unriveted many of the rivets (good practice for that) and reriveted them.

This helped me a great deal.

Later, after I'd scrapped so many parts that I was able to retire the practice channel, I had real (if botched) parts to play with. Also, I had things to let visitors try their hand at.

Dave
RV-3B, now skinning the fuselage
 
Eric, consider taking a Sport workshop when one is near you. Here is the web site.
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-education-and-resources/eaa-sportair-workshops/eaa-sportair-workshop-schedule

Also there is a wealth of info in shot videos at the EAA web site. Here is the link.
http://eaavideo.org

Watch a few every week to increase your knowledge. Good Luck!;)

I did go over the EAA Workshop schedule a little while back but the only sheet metal workshop is literally in two weeks(June 5th), during my work week.

There are sheet metal workshops at AirVenture, and I'll stop by one of those.
 
The 2-day EAA course will be much more comprehensive .. I did it and while it didn't fully prepare me it definitely got me going.

The #1 skill needed? Van's phone number to order replacement parts ;)
 
I had no experience with solid rives when I bought my 12 kit. The EAA course was invaluable. Up until that time my projects had been fiberglass, tube and rag or wood.
 
Take a deep breath...

Hi Eric,
There's nothing like a little time at Oshkosh to get the building juices flowing again. Having been building and flying airplanes for quite a while now, along with doing my own maintenance on my certified airplanes for years, I have to say that keeping certified airplanes going is more frustrating for me, mostly from a cost perspective.

However, I share in your frustration with building, let's call them "mishaps", that can make you feel like you took one step forward and two steps back. My most recent mishap was fitting the wings for the first time on my RV-12. The sawhorse that was holding the wing (a Home Depot fold-up type) collapsed outward when the plane moved while I was getting the flaperon torque tubes fully seated - and the wing tip hit the floor. Talk about disheartening. [a separate, lesson-learned here is that the HD stands need to be locked and then deck-screwed into position - otherwise, use a solid, non-folding stand - or better yet, a fancy-schmancy wing cradle, a la Joe Dallas...and Joe, you know I love your stand]. So now I've removed about 200 rivets and I'm ordering parts (not expensive) and I'll spend some time reinstalling said parts. And I'll have learned a lesson.

But in the end, no matter what your skill level, you'll likely make mistakes. You might be coached that some folks just don't belong in aircraft building, like it's some mystical arena for the gifted, but it's really not rocket science, and even rocket science is just a bunch of math and engineering problems rolled up into something bigger (and I know what I'm talking about as I've been an engineer building all kinds of high energy things for decades). Just take it one step at a time (Van's does a great job of this on their drawings), but don't give up!

It's the learning and the building process that makes experimental building what it is, an educational process that leads to fun flying. Just get someone to help and advise you and get back on track.

Hang in there man - and stick with it! You'll be so happy you did and will have the biggest grin when it's done. :D
 
Good builder is always learning.

Hi Eric, I'm over here in Jonesboro Ar. First time builder on finish kit. If your ever in my area holler, I'm in the white pages on VAF. Had my share of reorders, but it's starting to look like an airplane... you might just catch me in the cockpit making airplane noises at anytime.

Rich Kincaid
Jonesboro Ar
RV-12 finish kit
 
Hi Eric, I'm over here in Jonesboro Ar. First time builder on finish kit. If your ever in my area holler, I'm in the white pages on VAF. Had my share of reorders, but it's starting to look like an airplane... you might just catch me in the cockpit making airplane noises at anytime.

Rich Kincaid
Jonesboro Ar
RV-12 finish kit

If I get a chance to get out that way I'll give you a call.
 
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