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RV-6 pattern speeds

fbrewer

Well Known Member
Members,

What pattern speeds do you use flying your RV-6

Wheel Landing: abeam touchdown, base, final, crossing the threshold?

3-pt Landing: abeam touchdown, base, final, crossing the threshold?
 
Mid-field - <100 knots.

Abeam the numbers (and flap extension) 85 knots.

Base - 80 knots.

Final - 70 knots

Across the fence - 65 knots

Flare - 60 knots.

I always 3 point.
 
Abeam the numbers 100mph manual flaps full out.
Base 90mph
Final 80mph solo and 85mph with a passenger.
Stalls at 62 indicated with a passenger.
Don't get slow. The sink rate comes on fast.
 
Always 3-point. Abeam threshold 70 kts, Base 65 kts, Final 60 kts, Across the fence and flare flying by feel and looking outside.
 
I use the same numbers most are posting here. Normally 3 point the aircraft but wheel land now and then. The wheel landings give me the opportunity to practice both a wheel landing and a 3 point on one approach after the conversion!
G
 
Abeam the numbers 100mph manual flaps full out.
Base 90mph
Final 80mph solo and 85mph with a passenger.
Stalls at 62 indicated with a passenger.
Don't get slow. The sink rate comes on fast.
These are about my numbers as well, with one exception... I put flaps out one notch at a time. First notch as I get below Vfe on Downwind. Second notch on Base. Final notch or two (I have four) on Final, either 30 or 40 degrees as needed depending on how the approach went or how steep I want to be.

I find trying to put out *all* the flap at once, at 100mph, takes a really strong pull, but putting out a notch at a time, as the speed drops 10mph at a time, makes each pull very easy and light. If I ever upgrade to electric flaps, i'll probably do the same thing, just because I know it's easier on the hardware.
 
these #s are spot on for rv newbe flying. just like you learned in flight training.
i like the glider approach. chop the power and use the flaps like spoilers. the rv glides, slips, and slows down so well that my speed on short final is key. this is where the rubber meets the runway. this is where i try to be perfect. straight with a chirp or two. ;)
IMG_1668.jpg

by now the rv was in florida and time to do ifr, i fly rotors. departure 6:30, 3 fuel stops, arrive stuart fl 5pm. tails winds and clear skys.
 
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Speeds

I would say it depends on type of runway your landing on and what type of flying environment your in.The numbers suggested I would say are great short field numbers but if your at a large airport with lots of runway were the controller runs you out 3 miles before turning base why would you slow down till you were on short final?I guess what I'm saying with an RV and its speed range you should be able to fly the pattern at any speed required like a jet on your tail or a Cessna 150 in front of you.
Bob
 
Bob, that's easier with a constant speed prop, but you're right, flying from a large international airport (which I recently switched to) it's not always necessary to slow down that early. I find that there are enough Cessnas in the circuit that dropping to their speed range makes it easier for the tower at times.
 
IO360 CS
Abeam the numbers 87kts half flaps.
85kts turning base.
Slowing to 80 base to final turn.
On final full flaps 70kts.
Carry a little power for wheel landing.
3 point just throttle back more on final for about the same touchdown point.
I have two flap settings half and full. Can't say I've looked at airspeed during touchdown.
Love the braking of the CS!
 
120MPH downwind, 100 base, one notch, 90 final, second notch, listen to the tower telling the red and white RV to keep the speed up, wheel land on the Green Dot. Keep power in and get off the runway!!

Many of you know what I am talking about.

Follow Mike Seagers numbers and procedures provided by Gil until you have enough experience to do what you need to do based on the field, field conditions, weather, traffic, density altitude, weight, etc.....

There are no set numbers but as you can see from the previous posts, your "normal" landing speeds will be in the range others have suggested.
 
Speed is Life...well sorta.

Members,

What pattern speeds do you use flying your RV-6

Wheel Landing: abeam touchdown, base, final, crossing the threshold?

3-pt Landing: abeam touchdown, base, final, crossing the threshold?

FB,
The aforementioned numbers all work fine but are quite a bit faster than I prefer.

Aircraft: RV"X": RV4 Wing/Tail/Gear legs, RV6 fuselage. My flaps and HS/VS are 15% smaller/shorter and wingspan 11"less than a stock RV6. 0-360J2A Catto Gen 2 2blade /945lbs EW 380X150X5 tires.

I have TWO sets of pattern numbers, STOL and Long/Paved/Prepared (>1500')
For STOL (unprepared surface, uncontrolled, under 2000' long) Modified overhead pattern flying down the runway at 800' AGL /120KIAS (observing runway conditions then entering a break turn in direction of traffic).
STOL
Downwind: 70 KIAS
Base/Final: 65 KIAS (1st notch manual Flaps)
Final: 60KIAS (2nd Notch) Power 1500-1700 RPM, healthy descent rate controlling pitch with power. Power to idle at touchdown in 3 point. Retract Flaps, brakes A/R.
(Why? Prop clearance, aerodynamic braking, weight of aircraft on ground etc.)

Paved (civilized, controlled, regulated etc.)I prefer an overhead pattern if conditions and traffic/ATC permit.
Initial for Overhead Pattern 150 Knots
Downwind:80 KIAS
Base: 75 KIAS
Final: 70 KIAS planning a wheels landing (better forward visibility, style points less shimmy and fun!)

Your mileage may vary...:)
Smokey

PS: You might consider adding "flame-out" (engine failure) landing practice to your bag of tricks, could save your life. Speeds: Best glide 80KIAS, straight-in flaps A/R. Divide your AGL altitude by 5 for conservative glide range in NM. (2500'=5NM)
 
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Members,

Thanks for the numbers. Until I become comfortable in my new to me RV-6, I will use the following numbers as a baseline.

The Vso in our airplane is 58 mph.

mph kts
--------------------
Abeam: 100 87
Base: 95 83
Final: 80 70
Fence: 75 65
Flare: 70 61
 
In Dad's -6:

Midfield: 2400RPM (whatever speed that comes to, to stay out of the resonant range on the prop)

At the numbers or as required for traffic: Pull power off, hold nose up till I hit 68-73kt (light and heavy, respectively.. average around 70kt). Add flaps as desired while letting the nose fall through to maintain that speed.

Hold that ~70kt all the way to the threshold, bleed in the flare as required. I almost exclusively wheel land, sometimes tail-low.
 
FB,

PS: You might consider adding "flame-out" (engine failure) landing practice to your bag of tricks, could save your life. Speeds: Best glide 80KIAS, straight-in flaps A/R. Divide your AGL altitude by 5 for conservative glide range in NM. (2500'=5NM)

It looks like you mean to take the AGL, drop two zeros, then divide by 5. So 1000 ft AGL you would call 10, divide by 5 = 2 nmi. That's an L/D of 12. Wow! maybe that's achievable with a fixed pitch prop? Not for c/s.

I take the first number from the AGL and call it the glide range in nmi. (L/D=6)

example 1000 AGL, take the 1 and call it 1 nmi. glide range.

1500AGL -> 1.5 nmi glide.
 
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I stay at 120 mph on downwind, base, and the initial part of final. I then slow up to 100 mph and dump all the flaps on which puts the craft immediately at 80 mph @ 1800 rpm. I fly 80 to short final and then bleed er back to 70. When I start the flare and reduce power it slows immediately to 65 and then I just land pulling power. (3point) If I want to wheel it i leave a little power in, stick the mains and then slowly pull the power as i lean on the stick. I like this approach as it doesn't matter if I'm at gross or light. No turns going slow close to terra ferma. Been doing this for 850 hrs with no troubles. RV6 Constant Speed IO-360
 
FB,
The aforementioned numbers all work fine but are quite a bit faster than I prefer.

Aircraft: RV"X": RV4 Wing/Tail/Gear legs, RV6 fuselage. My flaps and HS/VS are 15% smaller/shorter and wingspan 11"less than a stock RV6. 0-360J2A Catto Gen 2 2blade /945lbs EW 380X150X5 tires.

I have TWO sets of pattern numbers, STOL and Long/Paved/Prepared (>1500')
For STOL (unprepared surface, uncontrolled, under 2000' long) Modified overhead pattern flying down the runway at 800' AGL /120KIAS (observing runway conditions then entering a break turn in direction of traffic).
STOL
Downwind: 70 KIAS
Base/Final: 65 KIAS (1st notch manual Flaps)
Final: 60KIAS (2nd Notch) Power 1500-1700 RPM, healthy descent rate controlling pitch with power. Power to idle at touchdown in 3 point. Retract Flaps, brakes A/R.
(Why? Prop clearance, aerodynamic braking, weight of aircraft on ground etc.)

Paved (civilized, controlled, regulated etc.)I prefer an overhead pattern if conditions and traffic/ATC permit.
Initial for Overhead Pattern 150 Knots
Downwind:80 KIAS
Base: 75 KIAS
Final: 70 KIAS planning a wheels landing (better forward visibility, style points less shimmy and fun!)

Your mileage may vary...:)
Smokey

PS: You might consider adding "flame-out" (engine failure) landing practice to your bag of tricks, could save your life. Speeds: Best glide 80KIAS, straight-in flaps A/R. Divide your AGL altitude by 5 for conservative glide range in NM. (2500'=5NM)

The glide ratio posted seems optimistic instead of conservative. I hate doing math in public but it seems to equate to better than 11 to 1. I find 8 to 1 a better conservative number.
 
T & G Practice

Lately I've been doing several touch and go's. Practicing different approaches.

One thing I'm curious about as well, how many use power in the descent?

I ask because if I use 100mph on the downwind, slowing to 90 mph on base with about 10degrees flap, once on final full flaps, it seems like I need to add power to get to the runway. Usually over the runway end at 80 mph remove all throttle and start to flare at 70mph holding about one foot off until it finally stalls for a three pointer. This is a done using a normal approach distance, altitude pattern for a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee.

If I fly a real close to runway on downwind, sharp turns on base and final I can make the runway without any power, using the above airspeeds. Basically removing power, initiating a glide descent of at least 100 feet before turning base, a constant descent to maintain my airspeed for the base and final to the runway. Only way to consistently touchdown at the same spot each time means this close approach style. (not using power after turn to base)

Only one post has mentioned using power. Curious if using power on base and final is normal?

Best regards,
Mike Bauer
 
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If I'm fairly close in downwind probably 45 deg looking down at the runway abeam the numbers and pull the power all the way at that point it's a steep descent working the flaps in base and final to make it to the runway with a CS. It's good fun and practice!

I'd say the glide ratio of my 6 with power off is more like 6 to 1 with the CS? Just a guess. Compared to a 172, it's a brick!
 
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CAFE report

If I'm fairly close in downwind probably 45 deg looking down at the runway abeam the numbers and pull the power all the way at that point it's a steep descent working the flaps in base and final to make it to the runway with a CS. It's good fun and practice!

I'd say the glide ratio of my 6 with power off is more like 6 to 1 with the CS? Just a guess. Compared to a 172, it's a brick!

Using the numbers in the old CAFE report for a -6A (fixed pitch, O-360)

70 kts - glide ratio 5.8:1 (minimum sink)

92 kts - glide ratio 11.4:1 (maximum L/D)

So it seems like you need to keep the IAS up to get the previously mentioned 11:1 or so glide ratios.

http://cafe.foundation/v2/pdf_cafe_apr/RV-6A Final APR.pdf

Not really defined in the report, but I assume no flaps.
 
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... holding about one foot off until it finally stalls for a three pointer. This is a done using a normal approach distance, altitude pattern for a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee.
Ouch. If I held my -6 a foot off the runway until it stalled for a 3-pointer, i'd bang the tailwheel first, and get a heck of a bounce off the mains.

Only one post has mentioned using power. Curious if using power on base and final is normal?
Depends whether you want to fly a 3 degree glideslope, or glide it in at the airplane's natural glide angle. I was taught that you should be able to make the runway from anywhere in the circuit if your engine quits, so I try to set myself up so that when I remove power, I won't need it again... So gliding in, no power, for me.
 
It depends...

...on airspeed calibration. Suggested numbers should be in CAS and converted to IAS for an individual airplane based on flight test results. Unless two airplanes are configured identically, it's not always apples/apples, even if the airplanes are the same type...

Lots of different techniques out there, and any pattern may have to be adapted to accommodate ATC requirements or other traffic, as appropriate.

One easy, energy efficient visual pattern to fly is ONSPEED, which requires a properly calibrated angle of attack system. Further simplified by flying a fully configured base to final (i.e., landing checks complete prior to "rolling off the perch" and final configuration established), allowing the pilot to simply concentrate on flying the airplane. This technique has the pilot flying a constant, descending 180 degree turn from the "perch/180" to final. If the pilot has a good visual cue and associated altitude for rolling out on final approach while flying an ONSPEED reference, proper energy is ensured when rolling out on final approach. Ideally 12-18 seconds in the grove on final will allow sufficient time for final energy correction and cross-wind assessment (assuming ONSPEED to "slightly fast" in the base turn). Transition to "slightly slow" cue during round-out and then any landing technique is practical, since there is no one right answer for conventional gear types, other than "keep it straight."

ONSPEED works whether the airplane has a glide ratio of 1:1 or 15:1 and assists with establishing a stable approach. The primary factor affecting glide ratio in RV's is the type of prop fitted--there can be appreciable difference between a constant speed airplane and one fitted with a light-weight composite or wood prop optimized for cruise. These aerodynamic differences result in different energy management techniques, including how the pattern is "sized" and visual cues for a particular airplane.

One advantage of AOA reference in the traffic pattern is that ONSPEED AOA is same regardless of gross weight, G-load/bank angle or density altitude. With proper pitch inputs by the pilot to maintain ONSPEED, IAS will vary as required to maintain aerodynamic margin from the stall.

The other handy AOA cue during pattern operations is L/Dmax. It makes a good target speed for downwind. It's roughly coincident with Vfe for half flaps, so it can also assist with configuration management.

AOA and CAS/IAS are best thought of as complimentary concepts, not mutually exclusive. The advantage of AOA reference is that when operating on the back side of the drag curve (as we do every time we takeoff and land), is that AOA always shows the pilot what the airplane is doing relative to the aerodynamic margin (stall limit). Good AOA cues also assist with proper energy control, since there is no requirement to add additional speed to compensate for conditions, which can help preclude carrying too much energy into the landing transition.

If anyone is interested in a more in-depth discussion of applying AOA cues during pattern operations or maneuvering flight, I just posted an update of the training resource document over in the stickies at the top of the safety page. The table of contents is hyperlinked to simplify navigation. CAS references for pattern operations are also included.

Incidentally, may parts of the training manual/syllabus are based on discussion threads just like this one. I'm always interested in improving the transition resources; so if anyone has any questions or inputs, please drop a PM, email or post over on the safety page!

Cheers,

Vac
 
..Lots of different techniques out there, and any pattern may have to be adapted to accommodate ATC requirements or other traffic, as appropriate.

I agee with Vac.
It appears the original poster is learning to fly the RV and most of us know the beginning is the toughest. Once you know or "feel" the RV it is up to you what technique you use.
 
I agee with Vac.
It appears the original poster is learning to fly the RV and most of us know the beginning is the toughest. Once you know or "feel" the RV it is up to you what technique you use.

You are correct.

I have almost 8 hours of TW time, so I'm almost an expert :)

This thread has been a good help. Thanks to all.
 
I never did quite understand why anyone would want to be turning (sometimes steep and possibly heavy) close to the ground. ie. Base to Final....especially when there is lots of opportunity to adjust speed , with wings level, on final. Just seems totally unnecessary. One beautiful day I was standing around the Sarnia airport watching an aircraft on base that appeared too slow to me. As I watched him turn final and die , I decided right then and there not to do the same. I encourage all of you to keep some extra speed for that turn because you never know when it could be your "turn"
 
I prefer an oval turn from downwind (which is much closer than what we often see) to final. The key is to maintain *proper* speed, extra speed just complicates the arrival and creates the need to either bleed it off on final or land long.
 
I never did quite understand why anyone would want to be turning (sometimes steep and possibly heavy) close to the ground. ie. Base to Final....especially when there is lots of opportunity to adjust speed , with wings level, on final. Just seems totally unnecessary. One beautiful day I was standing around the Sarnia airport watching an aircraft on base that appeared too slow to me. As I watched him turn final and die , I decided right then and there not to do the same. I encourage all of you to keep some extra speed for that turn because you never know when it could be your "turn"

I prefer a short approach over base / final when possible - it keeps the runway nicely in sight at all times. Turning close to the ground is no big deal for me. And, as Sam points out, extra speed is bad. Proper speed (or proper AoA) is the goal.
 
I prefer a short approach over base / final when possible - it keeps the runway nicely in sight at all times. Turning close to the ground is no big deal for me. And, as Sam points out, extra speed is bad. Proper speed (or proper AoA) is the goal.

Excellent point on the AOA, it is my primary instrument when making the 180 turn from downwind to final. The airplane doesn't care how close it is to the ground as long as we keep the wing happy. :)
 
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I never did quite understand why anyone would want to be turning (sometimes steep and possibly heavy) close to the ground. ie. Base to Final....especially when there is lots of opportunity to adjust speed , with wings level, on final. Just seems totally unnecessary. One beautiful day I was standing around the Sarnia airport watching an aircraft on base that appeared too slow to me. As I watched him turn final and die , I decided right then and there not to do the same. I encourage all of you to keep some extra speed for that turn because you never know when it could be your "turn"

Assuming you're qualified, go up in your RV at altitude and replicate base to final turns at lower and lower airspeed and you'll see how hard you have to work and how out of whack you really have to be to produce a stall/spin/spiral departure during a normal turn. Do you actually have spin experience? Many pilots who lack comfort level and experience in this area are often overly concerned about stalling and operating near their perceived "edge of the flight envelope". This causes them to fly with excessive speed in the pattern and on final. Your mind would have to be fatally absent or distracted to allow yourself to get anywhere near this condition even at moderate bank angles in the pattern. It's nothing to fear. The fact that you're thinking about energy management each time you make this turn means you're engaged. But as others have mentioned, there is no need for excess energy. Speed is not life. Proper energy management and paying attention is life.
 
Assuming you're qualified, go up in your RV at altitude and replicate base to final turns at lower and lower airspeed and you'll see how hard you have to work and how out of whack you really have to be to produce a stall/spin/spiral departure during a normal turn. Do you actually have spin experience? Many pilots who lack comfort level and experience in this area are often overly concerned about stalling and operating near their perceived "edge of the flight envelope". This causes them to fly with excessive speed in the pattern and on final. Your mind would have to be fatally absent or distracted to allow yourself to get anywhere near this condition even at moderate bank angles in the pattern. It's nothing to fear. The fact that you're thinking about energy management each time you make this turn means you're engaged. But as others have mentioned, there is no need for excess energy. Speed is not life. Proper energy management and paying attention is life.

I have done exactly this, tested the envelope all the way. I agree with you. If you want to land at our airpark, tall trees at both ends, 2000' runway, you better not be carrying extra speed. However, I see the point being made. There has been more than one stall/spin accident with RV's, low, slow, heavy, high DA, and fatal. I do carry extra speed when I have those conditions as I don't fly regularly in that environment.
 
Well Luddite42 , for the record I do feel qualified. Been in , around or piloting since childhood and now 57. No problem with turns close to the ground or being inverted as far as that goes. The nice fellow I watched crater was a show pilot so I think he was "qualified" as well. And I never said I carried excess speed in landing phase.In my humble opinion cross , down , and base are more about traffic than landing technique.One can micro manage speeds in those legs and argue about it all day. Also I had a second Competitive aerobatic pilot friend kill himself frost flying in a champ because he stalled close to the ground. Hence my caution. Alot of "experts" screw up. Constant speed prop , flaps ,and even flying sideways manages all I need to customize things on final for whatever type of landing that is required.
 
I realize that I appear to have contradicted my earlier statement about low level turning but I really meant when slow and heavy if it is not really necessary. If it is windy ,gusty, hot and one is being blown off course it could be conceivable that a person just tightens his/her turn while already on the edge. For me , why go there in the first place. I have never had my circuit speeds ever effect the landing. Flown downwind at my own strip at 170kts. Still landed just fine. That's all I have to say on it. (other than you shouldn't do that especially while rolling on each turn)
 
Abeam the numbers 100mph full flaps
Trim for 85 from here
Base 82 mph
Final 82 to 85 mph with a passenger.
Slow to 70 over the fense gets mushy
Stalls at 62 indicated with a passenger.
 
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