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  #11  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:52 AM
erich weaver's Avatar
erich weaver erich weaver is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: santa barbara, CA
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I have Group A cylinders on my -7A, with about 600 hrs now, no problems and strong compression. I have no plans to replace them. 2,000 hrs is a lot of flying time.

erich
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:57 AM
WA85 WA85 is offline
 
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Location: Madison, AL
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I bought an IO-320 that 4 of the ECI group A cylinders, which had 402 hours on them. I contacted ECI and asked if I could get core value for them towards the purchase of 4 new cylinders.

They did me one better, they sold me 4 new ECI cylinders made in 2014 and gave me 75% credit for the old ones because they only had 400 hrs on them (based upon 2000 hr service life).

Paid $1200 for the 4 new cylinders, plus they paid for the overnight shipping.

So far I have 218 hrs on the new ECI cylinders with no issues.
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  #13  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:05 AM
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RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLTENG View Post
Short answer,"NO"
They say great minds think alike. I would not walk away from this deal, I would run.

Now if I could get a 50% reduction in price on the aircraft, I may purchase it but would replace all the cylinders.
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Last edited by RV6_flyer : 02-17-2017 at 11:06 AM. Reason: changed to would replace
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  #14  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:08 AM
Michael Henning Michael Henning is offline
 
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I've got 165 hours on group A cylinders, no problem and great compression.
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:29 AM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
They say great minds think alike. I would not walk away from this deal, I would run.

Now if I could get a 50% reduction in price on the aircraft, I may purchase it but would replace all the cylinders.
That seems a bit extreme. On a $50k airplane you are talking about $25k. Installing 4 brand new cylinders would not come close to that cost. Might as well buy a new engine for that. Even if your figure in the cost of new cylinders, the OP could end up with the plane he wanted, with 0 STOH, for a fair price.

We are talking about an AD requiring a recurring inspection and replacement at 2000 hours. RV's have some recurring inspections like the VS and rear wing spar. We comply and check them, but don't go replacing them just because of the SB, unless we find a problem. In fact, we are told NOT to.

To press things further, infant mortality suggests that replacing cylinders that are running just fine could quite possibly INCREASE the risk of a failure. I'd be willing to bet that the infant mortality rate of new cylinders is equal to or greater than the failure rate of ECI group A cylinders that are inspected according to the AD and run within recommended limits. Replacing cylinders is a major job, and presents plenty of risk for a failure soon after.

I think there is a tendency among some in the RV crowd to advocate for eliminating any perceived or known risk at whatever the cost. Some people also let a bad experience with a particular product turn them into outspoken opponents, despite what the overall reliability may be. All that is certainly fine, but it would price many of us (myself included) out of the hobby.

You want zero risk, stay on the ground (and off the roads). You wan the least risk and have lots of money, buy something with a PT-6A or two. For the rest us, our risk/cost analysis will lie somewhere in the middle and be different for each of us.

Chris
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Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 02-17-2017 at 01:15 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:46 AM
gasman gasman is offline
 
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Location: Sonoma County
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Does the RV have a nice paint job?

That would cost way more than a set of jugs..... adjust the price, make the deal and move on if this is the ONLY thing holding you back.
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:56 AM
Tom Martin Tom Martin is offline
 
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10 years with ECI cylinders and an average of 350 hours between cylinder overhauls. The rings were the problem, the "special" coating would start to flake off, increased oil consumption etc. The last replacement jugs never broke in and after 60 hours we took them off to get them honed and found a bad cam lobe. Engine completely rebuilt with brand new lycoming jugs. 80 hours so far and oil appears to be much cleaner, less blow by.
I would price in the cost of new lycoming jugs with a provision for a complete overhaul. You might get lucky and go 2000 hours with no issue. Just work the potential costs into your offer.
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2017, 12:39 PM
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Mark Albery Mark Albery is online now
 
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I had understood that there hadn't been any actual failures on the group 'A' cylinders. It was the group B which were subject to the early replacement.
IIRC it was a tolerance issue on the head to barrel joint that could create excessive stress around the joint, but no evidence that group A cylinders were vulnerable.

I have about 600 hours on group A and do the leak-down and visual checks each annual with no problem so far.

I'd be interested to hear if any A cylinders have failed the inspection for reasons associated with the manufacturing issue.
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  #19  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:03 PM
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jjconstant jjconstant is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oakland CA
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I have 370 hrs on recurring inspection ECI cylinders...no problems with the cylinders. I have heard of many cylinders from all manufactures having many different problems but no ADs and lots of others with no problems. This AD is an inspection. At best it is raising a concern, but for my taste not a particularly big concern. If it is a big one for you, then I would say it's reasonable to take the cost of 4 new cylinders and use that as a negotiating position.

I find this useful info:
"I bought an IO-320 that 4 of the ECI group A cylinders, which had 402 hours on them. I contacted ECI and asked if I could get core value for them towards the purchase of 4 new cylinders.

They did me one better, they sold me 4 new ECI cylinders made in 2014 and gave me 75% credit for the old ones because they only had 400 hrs on them (based upon 2000 hr service life).

Paid $1200 for the 4 new cylinders, plus they paid for the overnight shipping..."

It sounds like the group experience is something between $1200 and $4000 to fix something that MAY be an issue at some point down the road, or it may not be an issue. I'm just guessing but statistically I would guess that it won't be an issue but you may be unlucky.

Given that plenty of people are fine buying different levels of airplanes I think you need to decide whether you want to pay for a plane that's "perfect" or one that is going to need one more item on a very long list of things that need to be looked at at condition inspection time anyway. Things come up at annual all the time. This is simply one more specific thing to look at.

Bear in mind that the various airframes also have recurring inspection points. Tail, aileron attach points, etc. If you're O.K. with those then that should help you decide.
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  #20  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:50 PM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
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Location: AUSTRALIA
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Group A cylinders 9:1 pistons, 936 hours with nil problems and excellent compression.

Fin.
9A
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