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When do you NOT use flaps landing?

Tumper

Well Known Member
I?m not sure what forum to put this under so maybe an administrator could help me out here.

I have about 100 hours in my RV-9 and so I don?t consider myself experienced at all, hence the question. In what condition do you not use full flaps on landing and what do you reduce your flap setting to?

How does the model effect the answer (RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, etc.)? How about tricycle vs. tailwheel and three point vs. wheel landing?

Thanks in advance.
 
When to use NO FLAPS? Large gust delta on a high windy day. It all depends on the gust factor for the winds. On a windy day I may not use all of the flaps but will partially deploy them, I maybe will use 10 or 20 deg.

There have been some heavy gusty days where I have NOT used any flaps. In fact, I just did this last week. Oh man, wait a minute. That wasn't last week. It was just this past Monday. Well, anyway on that day landed on 17/36 runway with winds 220 26GUST39! This was indeed a NO FLAP landing!

It is good to practice NO FLAP landings just so you know the site picture and performance of your plane when the time comes that you may need to use that tool.
 
Always!!!!

...We always use flaps unless practicing for flap failure, or landing in 25 kt or higher crosswinds. They shorten landings, reduce landing speeds, and save brakes. On take off it shortens the takeoff roll and climbs better. Thanks, Allan..:D
 
Better nosewheel control

90% of my landings and T&Gs are flapless.

+1

I am much better able to hold to nose wheel off with no flaps, and the plane lands slow and short enough without flaps. Add flaps to land really short when required.

YMMV
 
ah, rookie needs help here

.....so, you guys are all missing the BIG question......

WHY?

I tend to use the 'max lift' setting, about 15 degrees, when gusty or x-wind...but am not sure why.

the wing loading is the same I think....if you are approaching no-flap at 70 kts, yes, a gust will affect you a bit less, but eventually you will transition to 60, then flare, then touchdown at 50 or whatever, all times when a gust can upset you just the same.
I can see the TD guys might want the speed to make a firm wheel landing, but when is more lift a BAD thing, especially if you need to make a go-around?

.....inquiring minds want to hear from the experts! :)
 
90% of my landings in the -6 are half flap, the other 10% full flap. I can't remember the last time I landed with no flaps. But then, in that airplane there's no flap motor to not work.
 
.....so, you guys are all missing the BIG question......

WHY?

I tend to use the 'max lift' setting, about 15 degrees, when gusty or x-wind...but am not sure why.

You have to figure out why you do that, or how your approach changes.

Do you do it so that you can approach with the same lift but at a lower speed?

Or do you do it to make a steeper approach at the same speed?

If the former, then the gusts will have a larger effect on you. If the latter then there should be no difference.
 
.....so, you guys are all missing the BIG question......

WHY?

I tend to use the 'max lift' setting, about 15 degrees, when gusty or x-wind...but am not sure why.

the wing loading is the same I think....if you are approaching no-flap at 70 kts, yes, a gust will affect you a bit less, but eventually you will transition to 60, then flare, then touchdown at 50 or whatever, all times when a gust can upset you just the same.
I can see the TD guys might want the speed to make a firm wheel landing, but when is more lift a BAD thing, especially if you need to make a go-around?

.....inquiring minds want to hear from the experts! :)

...The reason why you don't use your flaps in gusty conditions is to help eliminate float, and increase touch down speed. This widens the safety margin for stall speed. Thanks, Allan..:D
 
Unless I'm practicing no flap landings, I use full flaps every time I land. Why? Because Mike Seager told me to.
 
Every landing is a flap landing unless the flaps are broken or training for flapless landings.

The use of flaps on an RV is no different than any other GA aircraft. If you're not sure why (and how much) flap to use on landing, maybe get with an instructor and go over some basics. Kinda hard to teach flying online but here's my take on landings...worth less that what you have paid for it....

-The ultimate goal of landing is to stop flying (safely).
-To stop flying, one must slow down and approach the ground.
-This requires more precise (maybe just different) flying skills than cruising.
-Crosswinds become more of a factor as your forward speed declines and you need to maintain track over the runway and aircraft generally aligned with direction of travel over said runway.
-The first amount of flap is to increase lift (enabling you to slow down even more), and adds some drag, and lowers the nose resulting in better visibility.
-Going to Full flap basically adds more drag which helps with speed control. In the slow speed regime, pitch now controls speed, and power now controls rate of descent.
-After touchdown, the flaps and the slower speed allows shorter roll, less energy (you want to stop afterall) with less (maybe no) use of brakes saving them for whenn you really need them.
-The above is for normal landings. Now, If you have crosswinds, it will be more challenging to control track and heading over the runway at touchdown. Reducing some flap, increases stall speed thereby reducung the crosswinds effect (a little) allowing better control but the trade off is more speed on runway, more brakes, longer (possibly much longer) stopping distance etc.
-Gusts are probably a more significant factor. Add 1/2 the gust factor to your approach speed and flaps (less than normal) to suit that higher stall speed.


Practice practice practice for consistency and variable conditions.

Bevan
Not a CFI but I...
 
could this be another ....'debate'???? :)

...The reason why you don't use your flaps in gusty conditions is to help eliminate float, and increase touch down speed. This widens the safety margin for stall speed. Thanks, Allan..:D

hey, love the discussion Allan....
let's say I approach 'no flap' at 70, stall is 55, margin is thus 15.
If I approach at 70, half flap, stall is 50, margin is now 20, so I can tolerate more gust/shear without 'dropping' it in.
also would say more flap = less float, especially if you shave 5 kts off the approach speed, still have the margin, but on the ground sooner.
maybe.....
maybe not? :rolleyes:
 
...The reason why you don't use your flaps in gusty conditions is to help eliminate float, and increase touch down speed. This widens the safety margin for stall speed. Thanks, Allan..:D

Disagree. Flaps up increases potential float because it lessens deceleration in ground effect due to reduced drag.
 
...The reason why you don't use your flaps in gusty conditions is to help eliminate float, and increase touch down speed. This widens the safety margin for stall speed. Thanks, Allan..:D

what1.gif
 
Flaps in the RV-10

I think it has a lot to do with the airplane. In the RV-10, solo or two up front, 0-20 degree flap landings make it much easier to keep the nose wheel off the ground. If I have four passengers and luggage, the I can use full flaps and still keep the nose up pretty easy. Wind plays a factor too. High winds usually mean less flaps and less float. My suggestions is practice multiple configurations in different conditions and see what works best for you and your RV. Main thing is to be safe and enjoy flying!
 
During calm conditions, I can't see a reason not to use full flaps (short of no-flap landing practice). Less kinetic energy on touchdown, less chance of nose wheel shimmy (for us -A guys), easier on brakes, tires, etc.
 
Every landing is a flap landing unless the flaps are broken or training for flapless landings.

The use of flaps on an RV is no different than any other GA aircraft. If you're not sure why (and how much) flap to use on landing, maybe get with an instructor and go over some basics. Kinda hard to teach flying online but here's my take on landings...worth less that what you have paid for it....

-The ultimate goal of landing is to stop flying (safely).
-To stop flying, one must slow down and approach the ground.
-This requires more precise (maybe just different) flying skills than cruising.
-Crosswinds become more of a factor as your forward speed declines and you need to maintain track over the runway and aircraft generally aligned with direction of travel over said runway.
-The first amount of flap is to increase lift (enabling you to slow down even more), and adds some drag, and lowers the nose resulting in better visibility.
-Going to Full flap basically adds more drag which helps with speed control. In the slow speed regime, pitch now controls speed, and power now controls rate of descent.
-After touchdown, the flaps and the slower speed allows shorter roll, less energy (you want to stop afterall) with less (maybe no) use of brakes saving them for whenn you really need them.
-The above is for normal landings. Now, If you have crosswinds, it will be more challenging to control track and heading over the runway at touchdown. Reducing some flap, increases stall speed thereby reducung the crosswinds effect (a little) allowing better control but the trade off is more speed on runway, more brakes, longer (possibly much longer) stopping distance etc.
-Gusts are probably a more significant factor. Add 1/2 the gust factor to your approach speed and flaps (less than normal) to suit that higher stall speed.


Practice practice practice for consistency and variable conditions.

Bevan
Not a CFI but I...

Well stated.
 
hey, love the discussion Allan....
let's say I approach 'no flap' at 70, stall is 55, margin is thus 15.
If I approach at 70, half flap, stall is 50, margin is now 20, so I can tolerate more gust/shear without 'dropping' it in.
also would say more flap = less float, especially if you shave 5 kts off the approach speed, still have the margin, but on the ground sooner.
maybe.....
maybe not? :rolleyes:

...I usually cross the fence at 60 mph or less, as 70 mph would require another 400 ft of runway at a minimum. Lets look at this another way, just think of the safety margin you would have if you came across the fence at 180 mph. Exaggerated statement for demonstration purposes, but you get the idea. You just need to increase your touchdown speed a bit to cover the gust possibility, potential float and drop-out. Thanks, Allan..:D
 
hey, love the discussion Allan....
let's say I approach 'no flap' at 70, stall is 55, margin is thus 15.
If I approach at 70, half flap, stall is 50, margin is now 20, so I can tolerate more gust/shear without 'dropping' it in.
also would say more flap = less float, especially if you shave 5 kts off the approach speed, still have the margin, but on the ground sooner.
maybe.....
maybe not? :rolleyes:

We may have two slightly different topics going on here. Crosswinds and gusty winds.

For crosswinds, generally you would reduce the flap and maintain your usual approach speed calculation (1.3-1.4x stall speed in that particular configuration).

For gusty winds, add 1/2 the gust factor to your normal approach speed for the flaps chosen as shown above.

By the way, I find the RV much easier to land in crosswinds than the Cessnas I used to fly. Probably a combination of the low wing, higher wing loading and more responsive control inputs. I used to dislike crosswinds. Not so much anymore.

Bevan
 
...I usually cross the fence at 60 mph or less, as 70 mph would require another 400 ft of runway at a minimum. Lets look at this another way, just think of the safety margin you would have if you came across the fence at 180 mph. Exaggerated statement for demonstration purposes, but you get the idea. You just need to increase your touchdown speed a bit to cover the gust possibility, potential float and drop-out. Thanks, Allan..:D

Yes but an airplane will not land gracefully until she is ready. You cannot force her to land against her will. She is designed to fly, yet you must coax her to land. Hence the dance. :D

Bevan
 
We may have two slightly different topics going on here. Crosswinds and gusty winds.

For crosswinds, generally you would reduce the flap and maintain your usual approach speed calculation (1.3-1.4x stall speed in that particular configuration).

For gusty winds, add 1/2 the gust factor to your normal approach speed for the flaps chosen as shown above.

By the way, I find the RV much easier to land in crosswinds than the Cessnas I used to fly. Probably a combination of the low wing, higher wing loading and more responsive control inputs. I used to dislike crosswinds. Not so much anymore.

Bevan


.....I think you are correct. You found the answer.:D
 
We may have two slightly different topics going on here. Crosswinds and gusty winds.

For crosswinds, generally you would reduce the flap and maintain your usual approach speed calculation (1.3-1.4x stall speed in that particular configuration).

For gusty winds, add 1/2 the gust factor to your normal approach speed for the flaps chosen as shown above.

By the way, I find the RV much easier to land in crosswinds than the Cessnas I used to fly. Probably a combination of the low wing, higher wing loading and more responsive control inputs. I used to dislike crosswinds. Not so much anymore.

Bevan
Post #6, sentence #1 & 2!
 
Dean,
I also fly a RV-9 tailwheel. I land most times as a wheel landing solo and half flaps. Since I am landing on a pave runway and wheel landing, I like a little higher tailwheel at touch down. Flaps bring it down. Gusty or high crosswind it is less flaps. Short field or grass it is full flaps. This thing drops like a rock with full flaps and 60 knots over the fence. To grease a wheel landing requires less sink and less loss of speed. The plane (or me) don't do three points unless CG is way aft. I use the flaps to get the pitch and decent rate I want at landing.
 
Yes but an airplane will not land gracefully until she is ready. You cannot force her to land against her will. She is designed to fly, yet you must coax her to land. Hence the dance. :D

Bevan

Unless your a tailwheel airplane doing a wheelie, but even then, at some point you must put the tail down. So, I guess your right if you consider a wheel landing to be two landings. The first can be done at a very wide range of speed and flap settings to get the mains stuck to the runway. The second, getting the tail down, can only be done at or below stall speed for a given configuration lest you be flying again!
It is very difficult to have a landing technique discussion on a forum.
 
Full flaps abeam the numbers . . .

Dean,
I also fly a RV-9 tailwheel. I land most times as a wheel landing solo and half flaps. Since I am landing on a pave runway and wheel landing, I like a little higher tailwheel at touch down. Flaps bring it down. Gusty or high crosswind it is less flaps. Short field or grass it is full flaps. This thing drops like a rock with full flaps and 60 knots over the fence. [/SIZE]To grease a wheel landing requires less sink and less loss of speed. The plane (or me) don't do three points unless CG is way aft. I use the flaps to get the pitch and decent rate I want at landing.

In my 9A, i was taught to put in full flaps abeam the numbers (Being mindful of Vfe) I Totally agree - I'm typically never more than 65kts over the fence - otherwise the plane does drop like a rock, my touchdown ends up in the 58-62kt range. I get minimal float and can achieve a fairly short roll out. YMMV
 
I use flaps on pretty much every landing, and my Vref is 1.3 Vso plus a correction for wind. Most of the time that means my no-wind reference speed is 58kts or so, but will vary from 57kts to 64kts depending on gross weight. A Vref approach, done with a 3º glide slope (vertical speed target is groundspeed times ten divided by two i.e. 60kt ground speed = 300fpm descent rate) gives me a short greaser just about every time.

My actual touchdown speed is somewhat less, since my target is to cross the threshold at Vref.

This works without flaps as well, but the speeds are higher, the nose is higher, and the rollout longer.
 
Thanks everyone

Well this got more discussion than I was anticipating. I think Bevan may have answered my question best. My real concern was cross-wind and gusty wind conditions.

Normally I hit one notch of flaps on downwind, one on base, and full flaps on final. I?ll make adjustments to this depending on my approach. To date I have only landed on pavement and most all my landing are wheel landings. I have landed with no flaps a few times for practice.

I was having a little trouble one day and was told to reduce my flaps to I believe one notch, and it worked. There was a quartering gusty wind that day. It looks like I am going to start making some trips to Lubbock, Texas so I have been thinking more about the winds and how I will set up for them.

Thanks for ALL the responses there are some great things for me to think about here.
 
...We always use flaps unless practicing for flap failure, or landing in 25 kt or higher crosswinds. They shorten landings, reduce landing speeds, and save brakes. On take off it shortens the takeoff roll and climbs better. Thanks, Allan..:D

Regarding the above quote, airplanes climb "better" with no flaps (assuming better means rate of climb, not climb angle). Better L/D. The angle might not be as steep, but the rate of climb will be higher. Rate of climb is (thrust - drag)/ weight and flaps are more drag. Flaps do shorten the takeoff roll. If you have a nice long runway you will get to 1000 ft faster from brake release with no flaps on takeoff. It will take more distance, so if you have obstacles then flaps might be a better bet, but 0 flap is better energy management. You will get to some given altitude with more speed, faster, so more kinetic and potential energy. Win win. The only time it isn't a win win is when there are trees at the end of the runway!

As for the OP, I don't see what is to be gained by using less flap. For a gusty wind, and/or a crosswind, you want to increase approach speed so that gusts or shear won't all of a sudden rob you of more speed than you can afford to lose. If you are 20 kts over Vstall and you get a 21 kt gust going the wrong way things are going to get interesting. For a crosswind, the relative wind is a combination of the crosswind component and your forward speed (crab angle). For a given crosswind component, the crab angle is going to go down as your approach speed goes up so less rudder required to land. Some people use half the crosswind and half the gust to add to their approach speed. Having lots of flap down will minimize floating and maximize margin to stall speed. I don't see a downside. Certainly the larger certified airplanes don't change flap deflection for different wind conditions, but they do add speed.
 
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Regarding the above quote, airplanes climb "better" with no flaps (assuming better means rate of climb, not climb angle). Better L/D. The angle might not be as steep, but the rate of climb will be higher. Rate of climb is (thrust - drag)/ weight and flaps are more drag. Flaps do shorten the takeoff roll. If you have a nice long runway you will get to 1000 ft faster from brake release with no flaps on takeoff. It will take more distance, so if you have obstacles then flaps might be a better bet, but 0 flap is better energy management. You will get to some given altitude with more speed, faster, so more kinetic and potential energy. Win win. The only time it isn't a win win is when there are trees at the end of the runway!

....I was referring to being airborne with less speed, in a shorter distance...:D
 
....I was referring to being airborne with less speed, in a shorter distance...:D[/QUOTE

Ya I was afraid of that :). I can see how that is better if you operate out of a 1500 ft grass strip with trees. If you operate out of a 5000 ft paved strip, then getting to altitude faster is better because your exposure to a flight condition where you have no options if the engine quits is minimized. At least that's how I look at it.

Opinions are like belly buttons (or pick the anatomical component of your choice :D) everybody's gone one.
 
Coupled Approaches

I thought of one case where adding flaps can be a problem. When practicing coupled approaches my autopilot pitch servo gets overloaded due to out of trim condition when I add flaps. For that reason I may land without flaps after flying a coupled approach. John
 
In my -8A, I find that full flaps makes it difficult to hold the nose wheel off the runway (when flying single pilot which is most of the time.) I used to fly the pattern like a 172: 1/3 flaps on downwind, 2/3 on base, and full on final, with 85-90kts dw, 75kts base, 65kts final. I have since modified my procedure to only 2/3 flaps on final, 70kts over the fence, then retarding the PCL to settle on the rw. Note that my home airport is a controlled field with long runways. This way the nose wheel comes down at a more controlled rate, instead of immediately coming down.
 
With almost 750 hours in my -9, I make all my landings with full flaps, regardless of the winds, weight, etc.

I have found that with the high lift RV-9 wing, even with full flaps, there is very little drag to slow you down and induce a good sink rate.

Even with strong crosswinds, I use full flaps. The strongest X-wind that I have ever landed in was 32 knots directly off the right wing. I wanted as much drag as I could get and wanted it to slow down quickly so it wouldn't start flying again.

My approach speed is either 55 kts when light or 60 kts when heavy.

Takeoffs I lower them to the down aileron on grass but on pavement, I don't use flaps at all.
 
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I thought of one case where adding flaps can be a problem. When practicing coupled approaches my autopilot pitch servo gets overloaded due to out of trim condition when I add flaps. For that reason I may land without flaps after flying a coupled approach. John

Why wouldn't you just re-trim when you add flaps?
 
IOU

Bill, I owe you thirty bucks for dual instruction. You offered a relatively high time (in type) review of how to land a 9... in just a few words. I copied and pasted it to a Word Doc for review now and then. Cheers.
 
Bill, I owe you thirty bucks for dual instruction. You offered a relatively high time (in type) review of how to land a 9... in just a few words. I copied and pasted it to a Word Doc for review now and then. Cheers.

I take cash! (Or just send it to Doug.)

It is good to hear that my method works for you.
 
In the slow speed regime, pitch now controls speed, and power now controls rate of descent.

Sometime after reading Stick and Rudder VERY early in my flying life, I basically drilled into my head that speed control is ALWAYS pitch and descent/ascent is always power (assuming a consistent speed). That's how I learned not to think about what I'm doing. But maybe this is only in the slow speed regime. I'd have to think about it.

The only time I come in with no flaps is in really gusty conditions as mentioned. I don't even think about why anymore. There's that moment when you've got X number of hours in an airplane when the plane becomes an extension of you and you didn't even think about what you're doing; it's all instinct. Sometime earlier this year, I reached that point. It's better than sex, I tell you (going from memory a bit here).

But the gusts have to be REALLY bad to make me go no-flap because I HATE the view over the nose in the no-flap configuration (I know you taildragger people are used to this view, however) and so much of my instinct for flying depends on my sight. When I go no-flap, and since I so seldomly need to, I'm introducing a new picture to my brain, the thing that's telling the rest of me what to do without thinking about it. In those situations, though, I'm back to my pre-wings-as-extension-of-me days. Doable? Of course. Advantageous. Not to me, really.

One thing I've started doing with flaps is retracting them the minute my mains are on the ground.
 
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I land no-flaps when I'm straight-in on a windy day.

What struck me in this thread is that someone said they always retract the flaps after landing.

I taxi to parking with full flaps. And if I land with flaps up, I put them to full as soon as I clear the runway and they stay down until I'm heading to the run-up pad.
 
I land no-flaps when I'm straight-in on a windy day.

What struck me in this thread is that someone said they always retract the flaps after landing.

I taxi to parking with full flaps. And if I land with flaps up, I put them to full as soon as I clear the runway and they stay down until I'm heading to the run-up pad.

What's the thinking behind taxiing with them down?
 
What's the thinking behind taxiing with them down?
1. No reason to put more wear and tear on flap motors that have a history of failing eventually.
2. It's a lot easier to get in and out of the plane with them down, and we (and our passengers) are a lot less likely to damage the flaps while doing so.

I was originally taught the "always raise your flaps for taxi" when learning to fly a Cessna, but then I once had a really experienced instructor ask me, rhetorically, "why?" Neither of us could find a good answer to that.

The exception to this: taxiing on loose surfaces so as to not thrown debris onto the underside of the flaps. This is the only time I retract them after landing.
 
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- SNIP -

What struck me in this thread is that someone said they always retract the flaps after landing.

I taxi to parking with full flaps. And if I land with flaps up, I put them to full as soon as I clear the runway and they stay down until I'm heading to the run-up pad.

1. No reason to put more wear and tear on flap motors that have a history of failing eventually.
2. It's a lot easier to get in and out of the plane with them down, and we (and our passengers) are a lot less likely to damage the flaps while doing so.

I was originally taught the "always raise your flaps for taxi" when learning to fly a Cessna, but then I once had a really experienced instructor ask me, rhetorically, "why?" Neither of us could find a good answer to that.

The exception to this: taxiing on loose surfaces so as to not thrown debris onto the underside of the flaps. This is the only time I retract them after landing.

I also do the same thing with my Manual Flaps. They are down just like you state for same reasons except flap motor. I also was taught to put the flaps up on a Cessna and I think the reason was to have more weight on the brakes.
 
Taxiing with them down used to be a signal (to the tower) for possible hijack (airlines). ATC would query the pilot something along the lines of "confirm flaps down" whether they were or weren't. An answer in the affirmative would confirm hijack.

My understanding anyway and not likely used anymore with the advent of other technologies such as cell phones and social media for every passenger on board. :eek:

Any of our current ATC on here confirm this is still being taught?

For our airplanes, I would think that once you've landed and about half of your speed has been lost, there's not much drag from the flaps anymore but you may want more weight on the wheels for final braking if necessary. Therefore, I put them up while still on the runway, down again before disembarking, and so as not to get asked about possible hijacking. :D

Bevan
 
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The exception to this: taxiing on loose surfaces so as to not thrown debris onto the underside of the flaps. This is the only time I retract them after landing.

This is the primary reason I always retract them after pulling off the runway (if they are not already). I pull the stick all the way back as soon as possible, leave the flaps down down, slide the canopy back, and stick my arm out the side (kidding) for maximum aerobraking effect when the runway permits. No reason using brake pads unnecessarily :).

Raising flaps while still on the runway is a good way to put more weight on the wheels for braking effect on a short runway, but it's also a potential distraction. I put one of the two flap switches on the stick to minimize this. YMMW.
 
At our airpark we have DEER. (and some fools across the street that feed them!) Anyway, upon touchdown the flaps are retracted and brakes applied. For us, flap motors, brakes and tires are cheap consumables in the interest of minimum speed upon the inevitable contact with the white tailed vermin.

I kinda' wish the -9 had manual flaps so I could dump them faster. But then again, I'm sure I wouldn't be strong enough to operate those big barn doors if it did.
 
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