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  #21  
Old 05-01-2017, 12:45 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
Mark,

Some ELTs use Duracell D cells. That would seem to contradict your conclusion.

Rich
The designer and Manufacturer of that ELT specifically specified Duracell D sized batteries (with expiration date) so using them as replacements (actually when delivered, the new the ELT's came without any batteries) met the TSO.

91.207 Emergency locator transmitters.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless -

(1) There is attached to the airplane an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition for the following operations, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations:

91.207 also dictates what inspections and record keeping of those inspections is required for all U.S. civil aircraft.
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Last edited by rvbuilder2002 : 05-01-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-01-2017, 01:29 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
OK, this is war! We're sending Justin Bieber back!😜
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:34 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
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Oh No - Not BIEBER!!!! :-)

Just a brief note... The D-cell powered ELTs are strictly 121.5MHz units certified under TSO C91 or C91a, not the 406MHz units certified under TSO C126 and its later variants.

Thanks, Scott for citing chapter and verse. There are exceptions to the "no TSO required" generality for Experimental aircraft, and ELT's are definitely one of them. Non-TSO'd ELTs simply don't meet the requirements of the FAR as quoted by Scott. Using non-approved batteries invalidates the TSO, therefore an ELT with unapproved batteries installed is in violation of the FARs. This same story goes for 121.5MHz units as well as 406MHz units - we can only install batteries approved by the ELT manufacturer.

Coming back to the OP's point, yes, the approved batteries are expensive, but they do last for 5 years or more, so the average annual cost isn't terribly much more than the battery packs we are accustomed to buying for our older 121.5MHz ELTs. The exceptions as pointed out previously are the D-cell-powered units, cuz there ain't gonna be a cheaper ELT battery than good ole' copper tops!
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:49 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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OK, you're all busting my chops over the ELT battery thing. The full text of the FAR is:

91.207 Emergency locator transmitters.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S. registered civil airplane unless—

(1) There is attached to the airplane an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition for the following operations, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations:

(i) Those operations governed by the supplemental air carrier and commercial operator rules of parts 121 and 125;

(ii) Charter flights governed by the domestic and flag air carrier rules of part 121 of this chapter; and

(iii) Operations governed by part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.

(b) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this section must be attached to the airplane in such a manner that the probability of damage to the transmitter in the event of crash impact is minimized. Fixed and deployable automatic type transmitters must be attached to the airplane as far aft as practicable.

(c) Batteries used in the emergency locator transmitters required by paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section must be replaced (or recharged, if the batteries are rechargeable)—

(1) When the transmitter has been in use for more than 1 cumulative hour; or

(2) When 50 percent of their useful life (or, for rechargeable batteries, 50 percent of their useful life of charge) has expired, as established by the transmitter manufacturer under its approval. The new expiration date for replacing (or recharging) the battery must be legibly marked on the outside of the transmitter and entered in the aircraft maintenance record. Paragraph (c)(2) of this section does not apply to batteries (such as water-activated batteries) that are essentially unaffected during probable storage intervals.

(d) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this section must be inspected within 12 calendar months after the last inspection for—

(1) Proper installation;

(2) Battery corrosion;

(3) Operation of the controls and crash sensor; and

(4) The presence of a sufficient signal radiated from its antenna.

(e) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, a person may—

(1) Ferry a newly acquired airplane from the place where possession of it was taken to a place where the emergency locator transmitter is to be installed; and

(2) Ferry an airplane with an inoperative emergency locator transmitter from a place where repairs or replacements cannot be made to a place where they can be made.

No person other than required crewmembers may be carried aboard an airplane being ferried under paragraph (e) of this section.

(f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Before January 1, 2004, turbojet-powered aircraft;

(2) Aircraft while engaged in scheduled flights by scheduled air carriers;

(3) Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;

(4) Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing;

(5) New aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to their manufacture, preparation, and delivery;

(6) Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to the aerial application of chemicals and other substances for agricultural purposes;

(7) Aircraft certificated by the Administrator for research and development purposes;

(8) Aircraft while used for showing compliance with regulations, crew training, exhibition, air racing, or market surveys;

(9) Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person.

(10) An aircraft during any period for which the transmitter has been temporarily removed for inspection, repair, modification, or replacement, subject to the following:

(i) No person may operate the aircraft unless the aircraft records contain an entry which includes the date of initial removal, the make, model, serial number, and reason for removing the transmitter, and a placard located in view of the pilot to show “ELT not installed.”

(ii) No person may operate the aircraft more than 90 days after the ELT is initially removed from the aircraft; and

(11) On and after January 1, 2004, aircraft with a maximum payload capacity of more than 18,000 pounds when used in air transportation.

[Docket No. 18334, 54 FR 34304, Aug. 18, 1989; as amended by Amdt. 91–242, 59 FR 32057, June 21, 1994; Amdt. 91–242, 59 FR 34578, July 6, 1994; Amdt. 91–265, 65 FR 81318, Dec. 22, 2000]


Now it is interesting that the FAR says it must be "operable", not airworthy or TSO'd. The actual TSo for ELTs would seem to indicate the battery must meet the manufacturer's spec as demonstrated for TSO compliance. If I found a cheaper battery that matched the spec I would use it and would argue the TSO is met. if not it would still be "operable" even if not in compliance with the TSO.

In the nuke world I come from we used to do operability analysis all the time when something wasn't quite right. If we could show the design basis was met it was operable.

RELAX, CANUCKS --- I wouldn't inflict Bieber on my worst enemy, but we're keeping Celine!😁
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:53 PM
OkieDave OkieDave is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
OK, this is war! We're sending Justin Bieber back!😜
If you're going to commit a war crime, may I suggest that you not leave your confession on a public forum?
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  #26  
Old 05-02-2017, 09:04 AM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
. . .Now it is interesting that the FAR says it must be "operable", not airworthy or TSO'd. The actual TSo for ELTs would seem to indicate the battery must meet the manufacturer's spec as demonstrated for TSO compliance. If I found a cheaper battery that matched the spec I would use it and would argue the TSO is met. if not it would still be "operable" even if not in compliance with the TSO.

In the nuke world I come from we used to do operability analysis all the time when something wasn't quite right. If we could show the design basis was met it was operable.
A man after my own heart!

I find it interesting that we pilots love to deride the FAA for all manner of things, including the rules they bring forth. Then in the very next breathe chastise a fellow pilot for 'violating' those very rules.

It is my fervent belief that, no matter how well intentioned the original purpose for the FAA TSO concept, the truth driving TSO's is based more on profit rather than safety in today's overly regulated world! TSO's have done more to create government sanctioned monopolies than they have moved the industry toward safety.

My unsolicited .02 on the topic. . . but now that I hit the submit reply button I keep thinking maybe I should learn to keep my unsolicited opinions to myself. Oh well, guess I 'done gone and done it' anyway! Y'all Live Longer and Prosper!
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  #27  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:19 PM
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flightlogic flightlogic is offline
 
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Default small minded experts

Even in the "best" forums... and this one is superb, EXPERTS wait in the wings to voice our transgressions publicly. It seems like odd psychology, but is pervasive. VAF is no exception, just less frequent. I once took a tour of a major ELT manufacturing plant. The pallets of Duracell D cells waiting to be spot welded were taking a whole corner of the plant. The general manager indicated he made way more money on batteries than the actual transmitters.
The rub, in the DIY world now, is the software that keeps track of battery usage. Those technically minded members here would welcome feedback on how the "rebuild" task goes for those that try it. Just be aware that someone is lurking to out there to "violate" you on the forum.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2017, 05:41 PM
#N72CR #N72CR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
Chris - I would advise you do some research on this topic. The ONLY battery which can be used as a replacement battery in your ELT is the battery manufactured and supplied by the ELT manufacturer. The battery makes up part of the TSO certification. Even though you are in an Experimental aircraft, you MUST use a TSO'd ELT. There is no room for interpretation on this point. Use something other than the manufacturer-approved battery in your 406MHz ELT and you do not have a TSO'd ELT, therefore you are in contravention of the FARs. Very simple, very clear-cut, and not open to interpretation, as has been discussed here at length previously.

Again, to put a fine point on it. NO HOMEBUILT BATTERY PACKS for 406MHz ELTs. Period.
My aircraft, engine, prop, and ELT are all experimental...Non-TSO (I install it as far back as I see fit). It would help if you identify which "FAR" you are referring too? I live in the USA, not Canada.

This is simply a battery replacement, in which the MFG has "glued" the batteries into a separate battery case.

The batteries should be here late this week. I'll let you know if I have any problems with the timer, but looking at it, it will more then likely reset after the battery is disconnected.
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Last edited by #N72CR : 05-02-2017 at 06:02 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2017, 08:59 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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Dave,

I see by your profile you are a lawyer. Remember, the nature of your profession is that half of you are wrong at any given time!😜

Rich (AKA Wannabbe war criminal)😁
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2017, 06:05 AM
MMiller MMiller is offline
 
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Chris,
It's not a timer and it won't reset with a new battery. They use a 1Kb serial EEPROM (Google 93C46) , it needs to be reprogrammed. It will continue to work with a new battery...until you reach your 120th, 30 second tic and flag the expired battery fault code.
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