Tailwheel technique preference in gusty crosswinds?

So with a bunch of practice, I'm now consistently wheel-landing the RV-8 with no bounce, and this morning I did two nice three-pointers with flaps up. So what do y'all prefer in a gusty crosswind to make rollout easier -- wheel landing or three-point, flaps up or down?

And what do folks prefer in the other RV taildraggers?

Thanks

Ed

When dealing with gusty winds I tend to do a tail low wheel landing with full flaps, and then as soon as the wheels are on the ground I get on the brakes hard as I bring the tail down so I'm going slow as soon as possible. I find I need the speed for gust protection anyways so a wheel landing is almost a given at that point.

My -9 is a completely different animal because with its long wing and Roncz airfoil, you will find yourself flying again if you aren't careful.

I always do full flap wheel landings and once it is stabilized, I'll retract the flaps. (I can do this without removing my hand from the throttle due to my panel layout.)

I have to be careful about lowering the tail too soon or I WILL find myself flying again.

That technique has worked very well in some VERY strong crosswinds.

I was taught that you always do wheel landings in gusty crosswinds because you have a higher landing speed and therefore more control. And the crosswind has less effect on you than when you are close to stall, doing a 3 pointer.

So that's what I do in my 8.

Feet on brakes in wheel landing....to scary for me....

I have 3 pointed my landings from day one, I can wheel land it but I prefer 3 pointers.

In gusty crosswinds I use half flaps and 3 point, and increase my final by 5 kts. Have done this up to 20 kt direct xwind. Once on the ground, stick in gut, into the wind.

I was taught to pretty much wheel land all the time on pavement - and get on the binders hard until the tail stops flying, then off the binders, let the tail down smoothly, then back on the binders with stick in the gut. 3pt on soft fields, very easy on the brakes if at all.....

Obviously, its not a binary choice; the above are the margins to work in from......

maniago said:

I was taught to pretty much wheel land all the time on pavement - and get on the binders hard until the tail stops flying, then off the binders, let the tail down smoothly, then back on the binders with stick in the gut. 3pt on soft fields, very easy on the brakes if at all.....

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Flying technique discussion on forums often elicits "I was taught" comments. Some people just flat teach odd techniques, as stated above. I would hope pilots try different techniques and with experience find what works best for them, rather than blindly follow and restate what some instructor taught them. I would much rather see "I was taught..." statements followed with "and in my experience..." statements.

There is no reason to wheel land only on pavement. And unless your main wheels are leaving ruts, it's not really a soft field. Keeping the tail up until it will no longer fly is a recipe for a trip into the ditch in very gusty x-winds.

There are no rules, regardless of conditions. It's only what works best for you. Different techniques work for different people. Understand the advantages and disadvantages as they apply to your particular airplane.

Another Tailwheel Technique Discussion

Hi Ed,
I asked a similar question a few weeks ago. Take a look at this discussion for some great advice from the pros:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=127202

My two cents...

..and this is based from my experience flying my -4. 50 hours of which have accumulated in the past 9 months. And with every take off and landing, I'm still learning.

In X-winds of any significant degree, I will do my best to lower the upwind wing into the wind and wheel land with one notch of flaps. As soon as I'm planted, I clean the flaps (Johnson bar makes this quick and easy). So far, this has worked for me. I try to avoid "gusty" X-winds as I know sooner or later, I'll be humbled by one I just couldn't tame and conquer.

Tail Dragon...

Ed_Wischmeyer said:

So with a bunch of practice, I'm now consistently wheel-landing the RV-8 with no bounce, and this morning I did two nice three-pointers with flaps up. So what do y'all prefer in a gusty crosswind to make rollout easier -- wheel landing or three-point, flaps up or down?

And what do folks prefer in the other RV taildraggers?

Thanks

Ed

Click to expand...

Hi Ed,
Great hearing from you and glad you're doing well!
I was asked this recently and commented on the thread link above. After 3700+ RV TD landings you'd think I had a handle on it! Maybe...
I have learned a couple of things I'll share.
First, the stock RV rudder (3,4,6) tends to get blanked a bit during three point landings. I ALWAYS wheels landed my RV4, Rocket and X in a crosswind or when runway length wasn't an issue. I also found over time that Flaps up landings aided in directional control in strong gusts (15 knots)
Second, If the X-wind component was greater than 15Kts I searched for other options, runways, airports etc. Why? As you decelerate in a strong crosswind, even the giant, gangly-looking rudder on the Next generation (pre-drilled) RV's becomes ineffective.
Third: Grass strips provide better forgiveness for poor technique or crosswinds.

The RV (especially the 8 with it's spring gear) is a pussycat tail-dragger IMHO compared to the Scouts, Ag-Cats, Pawnees and Luscombes of my Youth. Any technique you master that works obviously is sound however, be open to try other techniques.
I will challenge you to try flying final at the slowest speed possible on calm days. (60Knots) You'll be a better pilot for it. If you ever see a crosswind component above 17 knots (Max factory number for the Decathlon) I would look to land elsewhere.

Bottom Line: Wheels landings provide better forward visibility, rudder effectiveness and braking.They also look cooler IMHO!

V/R
Smokey

PS: Even the F-16 lands better in a Crosswind with a slight wing low attitude, a bit less AOA and lowering the nose...

Feels good is good.

smokyray said:

Bottom Line: Wheels landings provide better forward visibility, rudder effectiveness and braking.They also look cooler IMHO!

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Way cooler, second that. If you're having fun landing?you're most likely doing it right.

luddite42 said:

Flying technique discussion on forums often elicits "I was taught" comments. Some people just flat teach odd techniques, as stated above.

And lots of people do not....

I would hope pilots try different techniques and with experience find what works best for them, rather than blindly follow and restate what some instructor taught them.

And some people take what they were taught, asked questions about it, thought it over carefully, tried different things.....and decide they like what they were taught......

I would much rather see "I was taught..." statements followed with "and in my experience..." statements.

I like it when people decide for themselves what to write.

There is no reason to wheel land only on pavement. And unless your main wheels are leaving ruts, it's not really a soft field. Keeping the tail up until it will no longer fly is a recipe for a trip into the ditch in very gusty x-winds.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't recall anyone writing, in this thread, that the tail should stay up as long as possible.

There are no rules, regardless of conditions. It's only what works best for you. Different techniques work for different people. Understand the advantages and disadvantages as they apply to your particular airplane.

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No argument there. But just because people say "I was taught...." and don't follow that up with exquisite, highly detailed qualification that they thought it through, tried other things, etc doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But what about takeoff?

Much has been written about tailwheel landings, but I have seen no discussion about takeoffs.

I watched an RV-6 takeoff before me and when the tail came up there was the expected right yaw with a brisk right crosswind.

"I'll watch for that" says I... however I experienced the same thing even though I was well prepared with right rudder... either not enough or not on time.

So how about aileron into the wind, stick full back, fly it off in a three point attitude (actually 3-2-1, downwind wheel up, upwind wheel up, tailwheel up).

I've tried it with no or little wind and it works fine.

Thoughts?

Don

Landing Analysis

I did extensive analysis regarding tailwheel landing techniques. I had 7000+ flight hours but no taildragger time, was 63 years old, lived in the boonies with no easy access to tailwheel instruction, and realized the ever-changing Eastern Sierra winds were always going to be a challenge.

Bit the bullet and substituted practical for cool and built an -8A. No regrets.

Flew my RV6 for 2500 hrs all over the country and always 3 pointed it even in the gustiest conditions. Worked for me, never got out of control or even close to it. The objective was to get the tail wheel on the ground and get positive steering. I kept the steering links tight with no slack. With the stick fully aft the plane was a pussycat on roll out. Not claiming that is the only way to do it but it worked for me.

Martin Sutter
Building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Technical Councelor

I use 20 degrees flaps (depends on how strong the cross wind is), increase approach speed by 5 knots and aim for the upwind side of the runway. The wind will blow me towards the centreline.

Keep the upwind wing low, rudder input so the nose is straight and aim just short of the runway.

The extra speed and wind makes the flare long enough to easily clear the numbers. I keep some power on too, till the flare and then gently reduce power.

As soon as the upwind wheel touches, power off and dance on the pedals and brakes to keep 'er straight. Exhale when the tailwheel touches down.

In really gusty winds, I have to keep flying and descend slowly until the upwind wheel kisses the runway, otherwise I'll bounce and then it becomes a gong show

Controller training was going on today (huge separation, lotsa delays) so I only did one landing in 13 knots, 40 degree crosswind reported. I screwed up and was way high but a wicked slip took care of most of that and then I was fast on short final, no flaps. Three point landing and the rollout was much easier than anticipated and made the first turnoff with only moderate braking. Thanks for the recommendation, Martin!

If the wind was strong from the southwest, I could land across the runway (runways here are NS / EW), but with winds from the northeast, as they were today, I not sure what my options would be - other airports most likely.

Haven't yet had the -9A up in any significant crosswinds. Hope it doesn't require anything unusual...

I have 2000 landings in my Aviat husky which is a flying kite and just bought an Rv7 and in the process of getting checked out. I am doing all 3 point landings no matter what.wheel landings in gusty crosswinds in my husky is a recipe for disaster.until the tail is on the ground and stick toward the wind it's easy to ground loop as there is minimal control. I assume the rv is similar

I have found that if conditions are gusty half or no flaps makes for a more stable platform in the flare. I three point crosswind landings most of the time but fly a six. Most RV6 pilots I have talked with prefer the three point. RV8 guys favor the wheel landings.
G

Know your limits and do not exceed them.

Use sufficient rudder, aileron and brakes to keep aircraft on runway.

If headed for grass, cob power to it an go around.

Over and out.

Robb said:

I have 2000 landings in my Aviat husky which is a flying kite and just bought an Rv7 and in the process of getting checked out. I am doing all 3 point landings no matter what.wheel landings in gusty crosswinds in my husky is a recipe for disaster.until the tail is on the ground and stick toward the wind it's easy to ground loop as there is minimal control. I assume the rv is similar

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Practice and see what you are comfortable with, but the RV is not a Husky. That said, I find the RV line to be more controllable directionally with the tail up with the important caveat that I'm comfortable using the brakes as required. My home strip is short, narrow and almost always has a gusty crosswind. Additionally, my old Hiperbipe and my Rocket have zero view forward with the tail down, which is not usually an issue if calm, but a real handicap when you are looking for immediate cues for directional control. Out of necessity, I leared to wheel land in crosswinds and thats what I'm comfortable with. I believe that at the first half of the landing rollout, the tail high and brakes provides more directional control than the 3 point, where you have a somewhat blanked rudder, insufficient tailwheel coefficient of friction and diminished brakes. Slower, get the tail down and rely on that tailwheel traction.

I also will use less flaps than normal if its really gusty, but that has more to do with the anticipation of a go around than any diminished control on final. Full flaps and gusty cross winds seem to work just fine in the RV's that I've flown.

Yes it is indeed no Husky. It is turning out to be harder to land than my Husky is in gusty winds. I did great today in calm wind but the return trip to KGOO was tough. Getting the correct pitch attitude on final is different than my Husky for some reason . It's probably since that's all I have flown

Robb said:

Yes it is indeed no Husky. It is turning out to be harder to land than my Husky is in gusty winds. I did great today in calm wind but the return trip to KGOO was tough. Getting the correct pitch attitude on final is different than my Husky for some reason . It's probably since that's all I have flown

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Have you gotten some model-specific transition training? More experimental airplanes are broken by buyer pilots who don't take the time to get some model-specific transition trianing from a qualified instructor. There are a number of CFI's who can do this for you - and it is a whoe lot cheaper than fixing a wrecked airplane.

Trying to figure it out from internet instruction is a recipe for disaster..... and there is no shame at all in getting instruction as an experinced pilot.