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RV-7 Quickbuild or RV-12?

N

Naigool

Active Member
Hi,
I'm spending many hours on the net to found out wish RV kit I will build.
I'm almost sure that my drean aircraft will be the RV7 because of the higher speed and aerobatic ability. But i'm also thinking to fly with my aircraft as soon as possible and maybe the RV 12 will be easyer to build because of the complete kit offered...
Now I'm confused what i should do... Building a RV7 and be surely happy or building a RV12 and flying sooner and maybe starting a RV7 build and sell the RV12 when the 7 is finished!
Any recommandation for me?
 
mission goals

I would evaluate the aircraft according to your mission goals
- Aerobatic capabilities?
- Range
- Endurance
- Cruise speed
- Payload
- Operating cost
etc.

Maybe this link can help you

Personally, I don't think you would finish the -12 so much earlier than the -7, especially if it is your 1st airplane. But that's my opinion. I am a first time builder too. Homebase LSZG.
 
Hi Chris,
Your website is very nicely done! Thank you for your advice! What is your plan for the rest of building? QB or SB? How much shipping costs have you paid for the empenage kit to CH? Import taxes? Send me a PM if you want to share experiences with me.
Cheers
Nicolas
 
welcome

Welcome Nicolas
Do you have a pilot's license? If not, I suggest you start there. It will help you decide the mission you expect from your airplane.
Good luck with your decision.
 
The RV-12 will be easier, quicker and cheaper to build (assuming all new parts for both), but you really need to decide what's important for you. If you really need aerobatic capability, then it has to be the RV-7, but if it's just a `nice-to-have' and 120kts is fast enough, then go for the -12. You can always build a -7 later (energy, enthusiasm and funds permitting).
 
Decision time

Naigool said:
Hi,
I'm spending many hours on the net to found out wish RV kit I will build.
I'm almost sure that my drean aircraft will be the RV7 because of the higher speed and aerobatic ability. But i'm also thinking to fly with my aircraft as soon as possible and maybe the RV 12 will be easyer to build because of the complete kit offered...
Now I'm confused what i should do... Building a RV7 and be surely happy or building a RV12 and flying sooner and maybe starting a RV7 build and sell the RV12 when the 7 is finished!
Any recommandation for me?
Click to expand...


I had a similar dilemma a while back, though mine was the Sling 2 vs RV7. At the end of the day, there is no comparison. My mission is to be able to fly long legs (3000kms) for global circumnavigation. The Sling I could modify to hold 450 ltrs of fuel but with an average speed of approx 97 knts with a Rotax 912is it was slow. The RV7 can be modified to hold 300ltrs and with a 180HP engine can travel the same distances with 24lt p/h fuel consumption at 149knts , but approx 5 hrs faster. For me that was just one aspect.

The 2nd is cost, Sling basic cost in Aust is appox AUD 80K. Not bad, but I can't do acro in it (depsite their being Yoututbe footage of the designers doing such which I consider to be irresponsible since it sends the wrongs the mesage). So ultimately, I would be up for hiring another craft of having to build /buy another.

3rd, for a 1st time builder the total build time is going to be the same. For me, there is simply not the same builder support with the Sling, as there is in the RV community.

Bottom line, you need to choose what is best for you. Define your mission, your paramaters, understand your future expenditures, maintenance requirements and carefully consider all pros and cons before committing to the full build.
 
You WILL finish a -12 in less than 1000 hours building. You WILL take at least 500 more to do a -7 and likely more. How many years will it take you to fly the plane those 500 hours? That's one consideration.

The whole avgas-mogas-LSA thing in Europe is likely a bigger factor.

I wanted to build and built a -12. But it was very close call to buying an already built -7. (Which would have likely been a bit cheaper...).

If you are going to build, build your dream. Its probably a -14 which I bet will be, by far, the fastest-buildable RV after the 12.
 
Rv7,RV12,RV14

Cost of fuel is an consideration,noise abatement is a huge issue in Europe.The RV12 can go together very fast,I wish Vans had a model that required the 912is
but the bing carbs work well. The 7 is a beautiful ship,light,fast,aerobatic.It will test your metal. The 14 with its big,expensive,honking engine can be dialed back to save on gas but no one does,everybody would like an extra 3" of shoulder room but at what price. Given what you've stated and your location,you can't go wrong building a 12 first time out.I know for me,if the 12 had been out it would have been a no brainer.
 
Hi Lary,
I don't have pilot license right now! I'm right in the middle of the training process and plan to obtain it this summer!
I want to start building as soon as possible to fly my aircraft in maybe a couple of years and avoiding to rent the club aircrafts forever!
I actually fly a Robin HR20 with 160CV lycoming and feel already the aircraft to slow ( cruise at 115 Kt) specialy the climb rate!
That's the main reason I believe That the RV7 will better match with my expectation but maybe i'm a little to newbie in this sector??
Anyway, every recommendation will be welcome!
Cheers guys

Nicolas
 
The obvious option is to see if you can have a look at, or fly in both. I'm sure I saw a picture of a Swiss RV-12 a while ago, and there are bound to be some RV-7's around. Sounds like an RV-7 quickbuild might be an option if you're in a hurry (both building and flying). Even so, you could build a -12 much faster than a 7-QB, fuel will be a lot cheaper, and the handling will be much more responsive than the HR200(?).
 
Naigool said:
Hi Lary,
I don't have pilot license right now! I'm right in the middle of the training process and plan to obtain it this summer!
I want to start building as soon as possible to fly my aircraft in maybe a couple of years and avoiding to rent the club aircrafts forever!
I actually fly a Robin HR20 with 160CV lycoming and feel already the aircraft to slow ( cruise at 115 Kt) specialy the climb rate!
That's the main reason I believe That the RV7 will better match with my expectation but maybe i'm a little to newbie in this sector??
Anyway, every recommendation will be welcome!
Cheers guys

Nicolas
Click to expand...


Hi Nicolas!

It looks like the RV-7 is just the aircraft you're looking for however, considering your experience, I think you would be better off with the RV-12 initially.

While none of the RV's are particularly difficult to fly, the handling characteristics of the short wing RV's, such as the RV-7 are somewhat different to the general aviation trainers you will be exposed to and in my honest opinion not suitable as a training aircraft for low time pilots. There are also other issues regarding landing accidents with the A models flipping over on grass strips. Although this can be avoided, these mishaps are much more likely to affect the novice than the experienced pilot.

Both the RV-7 and RV-12 are very sweet handling aircraft with the excellent control harmony that RV's are famous for. The 7 offers greater speed, climb rate, range and aerobatic capability. The RV-7 won't burn more fuel than an RV-12 if flown at the same speed but it is unlikely you will do that. Performance in the way of more speed and climb rate will burn more fuel but, hey, that's why you build an RV-7. Contrary to what has been said elsewhere, fuel is not an issue as the Lycoming is certified to run on 98UL which seems to have a rather certain future here in Europe.

If you ask me, the RV-12 is the finest aircraft in the Rotax class, offering excellent utility and an easily achievable 120 kts max cruising speed. It will climb at 900 ft/min at gross weight and over 1000 ft/min solo. You can fill the tanks and it will transport two real world adults with baggage around 800 km before needing to refuel. It is an absolute joy to fly with direct fingertip responsiveness and a good introduction to the world of RV's. It is very easy to fly and suitable for the low time pilot.

You can realistically complete an RV-12 in under 1000 hours with priming the inside as most Europeans do. This is about half the time you will need to build an RV-7 QB.

By the time you get bored with your RV-12, if that ever happens, you will be ready for the RV-7 or its successor!
 
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Hi Mounz,
That was exactly the only reason I hesitate to order the Rv7A now... In annoter hand I would need at least 2-3 years to complete the RV7A building and will have around 200 hours of flight experience at this moment.... Hard to decide!
I'm not really sure the Rv7A will be more difficult to land or fly than my actual training aircraft, A robin HR-200 with lycoming 160 HP and only 20 deg. Of flaps... Really difficult to slow down to 65 Kt for landing!
Other opinions are welcome!
Thanks guys
 
I know you are considering building, but you may be able to buy a completed 7 or 12 for less than what it would cost to build. I could buy an RV-12 here for considerably less than what it has cost to build mine. That doesn't concern me because I wanted the experience of building and being able to do my own maintenance, but if you want to get flying quickly, buying may be the quickest and cheapest option.
 
ride

Nicolas
I think a ride (if you can find one) will resolve the decision really quick! :D
Try posting to the General Discussions forum. I'll bet someone will offer.
 
Naigool said:
Hi Mounz,
That was exactly the only reason I hesitate to order the Rv7A now... In annoter hand I would need at least 2-3 years to complete the RV7A building and will have around 200 hours of flight experience at this moment.... Hard to decide!
I'm not really sure the Rv7A will be more difficult to land or fly than my actual training aircraft, A robin HR-200 with lycoming 160 HP and only 20 deg. Of flaps... Really difficult to slow down to 65 Kt for landing!
Other opinions are welcome!
Thanks guys
Click to expand...

Nicolas!

I flew the predecessor, the HR-200-120. It is very underpowered but a nice trainer in its day. Believe me, an RV-7 especially with a constant speed prop is a lot of airplane for a new pilot. Things happen very quickly on takeoff and it is a very different aircraft to land than a Robin. I occasionally fly a DR-300 Remy with the 180 hp Lycoming and it is a comparatively docile aircraft. In spite of it's very primitive and not very effective flaps it is a very easy aircraft to fly. It has a very rugged undercarriage which will put up with much abuse from a student pilot. The RV undercarriage is relatively flimsy and is more suited to an experienced and practiced pilot.

The RV-7 is a very different aircraft with its low aspect ratio wings and more induced drag at approach speeds. If you are planning to build/buy an RV-7A, research the flip-over landing accidents on soft airfields. If you want a tail dragger, you will obviously make sure you know how to fly one. 200 flying hours will be a respectable basis to start out with an RV-7. My opinion is still that you will not be disappointed with the RV-12 and it will be a good basis to gather experience before you transfer to the 7. If you sell your twelve in Europe, you should be able to have enough money to by a complete RV-7 kit with comparable engine and avionics.

I learned to fly on AT-6's with the military and am just short of retiring with as an airline captain with a major European airline. I live in Germany and if you value my opinion, you are welcome to drop me an e-mail and we can chat. I am busy building my own RV-7 and had the opportunity of flying other RV's including the RV-7 and the RV-12. I will be glad to share my experience with you.

Let's chat!

Regards
Roger
 
Hi folks,
I'm really concerned on what Roger said and recommend to me... Is there any "new" pilot with less than 200 hours of flight experience owning and flying a RV7A ??? I'm now very confused and very close to change mind!
Thank for all recommandation guys
 
Naigool said:
Hi folks,
I'm really concerned on what Roger said and recommend to me... Is there any "new" pilot with less than 200 hours of flight experience owning and flying a RV7A ??? I'm now very confused and very close to change mind!
Thank for all recommandation guys
Click to expand...

One data point:

I started transitioning to my dad's RV-6 as a newly-minted private pilot with about 50 hours in old Cessna 150s. That transition included learning to fly a tailwheel, basic aerobatics, unusual attitudes, formation, spins :D, and various other learning opportunities from my dad and the other guys at the airport (whose combined flying time probably added up to longer than I'd been alive). In total, it took about another 40-50 hours of flying on and off with Dad before he felt comfortable letting me do a formal tailwheel signoff with a CFI and then taking his still-new airplane around the pattern myself.

Over the next two years or so before finishing school and moving away, I logged another 80 hours or so PIC. In the seven years after, I've probably gotten about 10, and most of that was flying every other leg to Oshkosh and back last year.
 
Naigool said:
Hi folks,
I'm really concerned on what Roger said and recommend to me... Is there any "new" pilot with less than 200 hours of flight experience owning and flying a RV7A ??? I'm now very confused and very close to change mind!
Thank for all recommandation guys
Click to expand...

My advice is to spend a little upfront figuring this problem out. Which one you decided to build will be a huge time and money committment, so don't be afraid of a little research cost. Where are you? Maybe try finding people near you who own a 7 and a 12 and ask them for a ride, for your share of fuel or dinner, or a fee, or whatever. Or, if you can't, consider a vacation to an RV training center. Even if you have to fly to one of the US training centers spending the $1000+ that would take would be money well spent if it saves you a decision you'll regret.

I guarantee a ride in each will make your decision easier. But where I'm leaning is it's always better to fly cheap than not at all, and planes you outgrow can always be sold, so... 12.

Have you considered buying over building? Way faster... but comes with its own headaches.
 
Nicolas,

The RV-7 doesn't need any defending. It is a wonderful aircraft that excels in the mission for which it was designed. I don't think there is an aircraft to compare with it in terms of handling, performance, utility and versatility. The ball is now in your court and you must make a decision.

Based on what I understand, you want more performance than the 160hp Robin is providing. The RV-7 will fulfil this wish of yours as it is a great performer and in a completely different performance category to the the RV-12.

It is realistic to say that even if you decide on a quick build RV-7, it will take you more than two years to complete. If, as you say, you expect to have accumulated 200 flying hours by then, you should be ready for the 7.

There are a few RV-7's flying in Switzerland and at least one RV-12. So go and get yourself a ride in each and make your decision. The longer you wait, the later it will be finished.

I would recommend getting some training in an RV before you fly it yourself. I will certainly be doing that before I fly my own in spite of my experience. It is sad to hear that it is mainly professional pilots who get training before flying their RV's and less so private pilots.

It may interest you to know that I'm thinking of building an RV-12 after I finish my RV-7! I would like to keep and fly both.
 
defend?

Naigool said:
Nobody to defend the RV7?
Click to expand...

Unnecessary. Get a ride or better, ask if you can fly a bit. That's why it's called the $50,000 ride! Someone posted a good idea to travel somewhere to experience them. It's worth it to help make the decision.
 
[email protected] said:
The very idea of considering a -12 vs -7 is bizarre ;)
Click to expand...

I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I'd call it bizarre. I think it's a matter of perspective. An apple and an orange look about the same to a starving man. Likewise, to a person that's not particularly interested in acro or speed, the two planes look similar. I recently took test flights in both a 7A and a 12 and was equally impressed with both.
 
[email protected] said:
The very idea of considering a -12 vs -7 is bizarre ;)
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. I'd guess, the people with this dilemma want to fly...but do not have enough experience to know what they don't know.

Need to make a list. here's a start...
1. acro
2. speed (fuel burn, cross country, racing)
3. training
4. short field
5. rough strips
6. wild life spotting
7. camping
8. 4 seats
9. Light sport medical
10. budget
11. comfort

I'll use myself as an example. I was a 200hr pilot, (cessna and citabria) but wanted a plane to travel to see our kids and also fun wildlife spotting, pancake runs, fly-ins etc. I looked at a "J" Bonanza which filled the travel need, but not much else. The fuel burn wasn't good for the other stuff. I helped build a Rans S-6,,,great little light sport for local flying but very limited baggage and travel. I fell for the Vans RV sales pitch after a ride in a Rv-6 and then a RV-4. A fun sport plane with great XC potential. (I do miss the wildlife spotting capability of the Citabria and the 4 seats of the 182) I almost ordered a -9, but Kris is not a great flyer and said "if you are building one make it a fast one, to limit how long it takes to get somewhere" That's how I ended up with a -7. 8-8.5gph at 178-180kts TAS is a normal cruise setting for me. Locally I will throttle back once in a while140kts @ 5.5gph, but I also like to do speed runs down the valley burning as much fuel as possible.

So could I have done a -12 vs 7...not for my calibrated choices
 
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Basically I think we're all saying the same things in different words.

Both the RV-7 and RV-12 are very sweet aircraft with great handling qualities and in that sense very similar.

The RV-12 is ideal for short hops and sight seeing with its superb visibility out the cockpit. This is the aircraft to go and spot wildlife and take in the panorama of the Alps. It is economical as it is difficult to burn much more than 6 gph.

The RV-7 offers aerobatic capability and will get you further on a full tank of gas in a shorter space of time so it's a better aircraft to travel longer distances. It is also economical considering it's cruising speed. Its short field performance is also better.

What you see on your VSI or ASI you either get used to very quickly or it becomes a drug and you need more of it. If you need more of it, you'll soon have the desire build something else or go and fly with the military or the airlines (short range) where good performance is routine.

If you're into racing, the RV-7 could be an entry level aircraft. 180 kts looks more impressive at low level but you become accustomed to that too but a residual thrill will remain. Where do you do air racing in Europe other than the UK?

Define your mission and decide what you want Nicolas. Be aware that with the numerous short grass strips in Europe, there have been a number of RV-XA (nose wheel) accidents. Interestingly, most of these accidents involved pilots who were either low time or had not built their aircraft themselves. Be sure you are aware of these issues when making your decision. These accidents are avoidable once you have familiarised yourself with the cause.

Any way you decide, you will end up with a far nicer aircraft than you have been flying up to now. I can only repeat what many others are saying. Go and take a ride in both types and make your decision
 
Mounz said:
Basically I think we're all saying the same things in different words.

Both the RV-7 and RV-12 are very sweet aircraft with great handling qualities and in that sense very similar.

The RV-12 is ideal for short hops and sight seeing with its superb visibility out the cockpit. This is the aircraft to go and spot wildlife and take in the panorama of the Alps. It is economical as it is difficult to burn much more than 6 gph.

The RV-7 offers aerobatic capability and will get you further on a full tank of gas in a shorter space of time so it's a better aircraft to travel longer distances. It is also economical considering it's cruising speed. Its short field performance is also better.

What you see on your VSI or ASI you either get used to very quickly or it becomes a drug and you need more of it. If you need more of it, you'll soon have the desire build something else or go and fly with the military or the airlines (short range) where good performance is routine.

If you're into racing, the RV-7 could be an entry level aircraft. 180 kts looks more impressive at low level but you become accustomed to that too but a residual thrill will remain. Where do you do air racing in Europe other than the UK?

Define your mission and decide what you want Nicolas. Be aware that with the numerous short grass strips in Europe, there have been a number of RV-XA (nose wheel) accidents. Interestingly, most of these accidents involved pilots who were either low time or had not built their aircraft themselves. Be sure you are aware of these issues when making your decision. These accidents are avoidable once you have familiarised yourself with the cause.

Any way you decide, you will end up with a far nicer aircraft than you have been flying up to now. I can only repeat what many others are saying. Go and take a ride in both types and make your decision
Click to expand...

Good summary statement. I would add that you can always modify your RV-12 fuel system to take more fuel along for those longer trips when needed. Also, the RV-12 may be less prone to flip overs than the RV-7A since it has a larger nose wheel and far less weight on the nose wheel.
 
RV7 vs RV7A

Guys,
To answer all the post, i'm interessed in aerobatics and speed for sure and I'm definitly sure the RV7 or RV7A will fit my expectation more than the RV12, but maybe I should start tu build the RV12 for both experiencing building and flying ...
So if I spotted well all the answer I reveived, it seems that the RV7A nose landing gear is a little weack!?
I'm now learning my PPL and my instructor if really concerned on tricycle landing and don't allow you touching the nose gear before you can't maintain the aircraft nose up anymore so I'm quiet confident I will do it proprely ... But you never know, anything can happen anytime!!
I will consider yet buying an RV7 and not a 7A but maybe the tailwheel if even more complicate to manage..? I will ask my instructor to be trained on and see what I prefer!
Thanks again for all your advice guys, it really help to take a decision!
Regards
Nicolas
 
I think some people switch to an RV-12 because of losing their medical.

I'd build the plane you want to fly, which sounds like the RV-7/7A for aerobatics, speed, VSI, range, etc.

If thousands of ordinary people could build one, so can you. If you want to fly while building, rent other aircraft to satisfy your flying bug.

But I wouldn't start with a 12 just because it's easier and quicker to build. Things can come up and you might not be able to build a 2nd aircraft for a while.
 
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