Who has the longest range RV, and how did you do that? How many gallons of fuel can you put onboard?
Sounds like a crazy question, but I'd like to know.
Tom
Sounds like a crazy question, but I'd like to know.
Tom
Van's Air Force
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Longest range RV
- Thread starter TS Flightlines
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rmartingt
Well Known Member
There's someone in Canada with a 9 who has full-span leading edge tanks plus tip tanks for 84 gallons. http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
I know of a certain super 8 with 84 gallons. Full leading edge tanks.
RV-7 G-IIXF, Steve Noujaim, 2 stops actually, I think around 450 litres which is over 110 US gallons. To South Africa and back to England in 4 days.
http://capechallenge.wordpress.com/
Pete
Jon Johanson planned to increase his range even more.
I spoke to him sometime ago, and from memory he told me he had 1000 litres (264 US Gallons) on board for one flight, including ferry tank in cabin and more fuel in the wings I believe. He may not want to talk about the flight as it turned into a bit of an international incident.
He is contactable at
http://www.flymore.com.au.
John
I spoke to him sometime ago, and from memory he told me he had 1000 litres (264 US Gallons) on board for one flight, including ferry tank in cabin and more fuel in the wings I believe. He may not want to talk about the flight as it turned into a bit of an international incident.
He is contactable at
http://www.flymore.com.au.
John
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Not sure he'd get off the ground with that load - 110 gallons is enough to go from California to Hawaii, and that's the longest point-to-point distance with no fuel options, no real reason to plan for more than that.
Jimboscr
Well Known Member
Greg
You'd think Hawaii to California was the longest, but it turns out not so.
He was planning to fly from Australia to South Pole and then on to South America. As I recall it he got over top of South Pole and decided he did not have enough fuel to safely complete the journey I think because of unforcast winds, and had to back track and land at McMurdo Station in Antarctica.
Because of the various professional Antarctic national services do not want to encourage private adventurers of any sort in venturing there, the US and NZ teams at McMurdo were instructed to provide safe accomodation and food for him, and a passage out to NZ, but to refuse to provide any assistance at all for the aircraft, and to give him personally a frosty reception (pun).
He was beside himself at the prospect of having to abandon his aircraft ( ie never to have it get out of Antarctica.
Luckily, another adventurer Poly Varcher had planned a round the world trip via both Poles in an aircraft, and had pre positioned some drums of Avgas at McMurdo, which she offered him.
He was given no where to put his aircraft, and I forget how he got it warm enough to start.
However he took off and returned to Australia.
The above is my recollection, and I may be wrong in certain respects, but I think it is fairly close to what happened.
John
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Again, I can't confirm it.
Jon told me he converted the wing to be almost totally wet, in prepararation for the planned Antarctic flght.
But I agree, it is hard to visualise all that fuel being swallowed by wings as well as a ferry tank in the cabin.
Still, he is a quiet man with a great reputation for achievement, who generally does rather than talks, so I believe him. I just hope I didn't miss hear when we spoke some years ago.
Jon told me he converted the wing to be almost totally wet, in prepararation for the planned Antarctic flght.
But I agree, it is hard to visualise all that fuel being swallowed by wings as well as a ferry tank in the cabin.
Still, he is a quiet man with a great reputation for achievement, who generally does rather than talks, so I believe him. I just hope I didn't miss hear when we spoke some years ago.
Mark Albery
Well Known Member
At the back of Jo's book "Aiming High" he lists some facts and figures although this was before the Antarctic trip:
Forward Fuel - 30.5 kg
Wing Fuel - 83.1 kg
Tip fuel - 46.2 kg
Ferry Fuel - 174.7 kg
So that's a total of 334.5kg or 123 US Gallons for a MTOW of 926.6 kg or about 33% over gross. Even at that the initial climb rate was 700 ft/m and ceiling of 12500'.
Often aircraft with ferry tanks are down to 200 ft/m and 4000-5000' ceiling initially, so there's still some performance margin.
It would be hard to imagine where you could physically put much more in an RV-4 or why you would need to with a still air range of over 2800 nm.
There is a magazine piece about the Antarctic trip I recall somewhere on the web. Maybe that will have some more detail.
Forward Fuel - 30.5 kg
Wing Fuel - 83.1 kg
Tip fuel - 46.2 kg
Ferry Fuel - 174.7 kg
So that's a total of 334.5kg or 123 US Gallons for a MTOW of 926.6 kg or about 33% over gross. Even at that the initial climb rate was 700 ft/m and ceiling of 12500'.
Often aircraft with ferry tanks are down to 200 ft/m and 4000-5000' ceiling initially, so there's still some performance margin.
It would be hard to imagine where you could physically put much more in an RV-4 or why you would need to with a still air range of over 2800 nm.
There is a magazine piece about the Antarctic trip I recall somewhere on the web. Maybe that will have some more detail.
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Mark Albery
Well Known Member
I found this quote from an interview:
So a planned 35 hour endurance. Even at best range speeds that must be close to 200 USG and a take off weight around 2500 lb!
So a planned 35 hour endurance. Even at best range speeds that must be close to 200 USG and a take off weight around 2500 lb!
Greg---i was thinking of you when I started this thread!!
Tom
Tom
Conrad
Max Conrad set nine official world records.
Single Commanche:N110LF, first with 250 hp engine then with 180 hp in same airplane.
Casablanca to Los Angeles 7768 statute miles class C1D
Casablanca to El Paso class C1C
Twin Commanche:
Capetown to St. Petersburg FL, 7878 statute miles class C1E.
He was actually almost to New Orleans when the weather fogged in and he had to turn around and return to St Pete. The airplane was capable of considerably more distance than the actual record reflects.
The wind from the West coast of Africa to Florida is almost always out of the Southeast, usually 25-35 knots on the surface. Conrad took advantage of those winds, flying at 500 feet at night and 50 feet or lower during the day.
The single Commanche is in the Liberal KS Air Museum with the cabin tanks installed and the seat tank on the floor beside the airplane. The Twin Commanche used the same cabin tanks. The left front tank took up so much space in the twin that the knobs were removed from the engine controls to provide clearance on the tank. Pilot sat in the right seat on a tank with thin layer of foam. Hardly any room to move at all. I sat in the Conrad Twin Commanche at Flushing Airport in NY many years ago. Very claustrophobic even with the door open.
Max Conrad set nine official world records.
Single Commanche:N110LF, first with 250 hp engine then with 180 hp in same airplane.
Casablanca to Los Angeles 7768 statute miles class C1D
Casablanca to El Paso class C1C
Twin Commanche:
Capetown to St. Petersburg FL, 7878 statute miles class C1E.
He was actually almost to New Orleans when the weather fogged in and he had to turn around and return to St Pete. The airplane was capable of considerably more distance than the actual record reflects.
The wind from the West coast of Africa to Florida is almost always out of the Southeast, usually 25-35 knots on the surface. Conrad took advantage of those winds, flying at 500 feet at night and 50 feet or lower during the day.
The single Commanche is in the Liberal KS Air Museum with the cabin tanks installed and the seat tank on the floor beside the airplane. The Twin Commanche used the same cabin tanks. The left front tank took up so much space in the twin that the knobs were removed from the engine controls to provide clearance on the tank. Pilot sat in the right seat on a tank with thin layer of foam. Hardly any room to move at all. I sat in the Conrad Twin Commanche at Flushing Airport in NY many years ago. Very claustrophobic even with the door open.
Mark Albery
Well Known Member
A few more book suggestions in that case:
The other two Earth-rounders in RVs have both written books;
Flight of a Lifetime by Bill Randolph - ISBN 978-0615524795
Chasing the Morning Sun by Manuel Queiroz - ISBN 978-1-908117-09-0
An older, but still interesting read is 'Ocean Flying' by Louise Sacchi - ISBN 0-8306-9436-6
Carol-Ann Garrett has written 3 books on her 3 Mooney RTW trips. I don't have them to hand, but I think 'On Silver Wings 2' has the most technical detail of the three.
The other two Earth-rounders in RVs have both written books;
Flight of a Lifetime by Bill Randolph - ISBN 978-0615524795
Chasing the Morning Sun by Manuel Queiroz - ISBN 978-1-908117-09-0
An older, but still interesting read is 'Ocean Flying' by Louise Sacchi - ISBN 0-8306-9436-6
Carol-Ann Garrett has written 3 books on her 3 Mooney RTW trips. I don't have them to hand, but I think 'On Silver Wings 2' has the most technical detail of the three.
my longest non-stop flight
I once flew from Portland, OR to just outside dallas, TX. I flew for 10.5 hrs(?), still had another hr of fuel on board, but it was getting near dusk and I was bored. I had added a ferry tank behind my seat holding 18gals., flew at 140mph, 12-15,000', and leaned the mixture a lot. I picked up a great tailwind crossing the rockies. I mistakenly set my oxygen too high and depleted the tank over the rockies and had to drop down and "take my bumps". I took 2 days to fly home.
inspired by Jon's RV-4 flights[I met him once] I built a fuel tank to replace the passenger, 56 gals and still well within weight and balance. I had plans for non-stop, coast to coast, Astoria, OR to kittyhawk, NC non-stop VFR. It would have to take place in the summer with long days and obviously good weather and hopefully, tailwinds. the worst part of the flight however, is over eastern NC with few alternate airports or landing possibilities. I was also never real at ease about flying next to 56 gals of fuel in an emergency. I still have the tank, but no longer the ambition to be a record holder.
I once flew from Portland, OR to just outside dallas, TX. I flew for 10.5 hrs(?), still had another hr of fuel on board, but it was getting near dusk and I was bored. I had added a ferry tank behind my seat holding 18gals., flew at 140mph, 12-15,000', and leaned the mixture a lot. I picked up a great tailwind crossing the rockies. I mistakenly set my oxygen too high and depleted the tank over the rockies and had to drop down and "take my bumps". I took 2 days to fly home.
inspired by Jon's RV-4 flights[I met him once] I built a fuel tank to replace the passenger, 56 gals and still well within weight and balance. I had plans for non-stop, coast to coast, Astoria, OR to kittyhawk, NC non-stop VFR. It would have to take place in the summer with long days and obviously good weather and hopefully, tailwinds. the worst part of the flight however, is over eastern NC with few alternate airports or landing possibilities. I was also never real at ease about flying next to 56 gals of fuel in an emergency. I still have the tank, but no longer the ambition to be a record holder.
I read alittle bit on Manuel's flight to Hawii---the actual goal here. i knew of Jon's flights, but wasnt aware of Manuel's until recently.
Gee---I guess RV's ARE time machines!
Tom
Gee---I guess RV's ARE time machines!
Tom
rv7charlie
Well Known Member
I'm still amazed that Jon Johanson's RV-4 was able to take off and get airborne carrying all that fuel plus the weight of his cajones onboard too
You do know that he wasn't the first, right?
1st homebuilt around the world, 37 years ago. In a Thorp T-18.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorp_T-18
Apparently, the EAA museum has decided to hide the plane & display that documented it for years, & a lot of current experimental fliers don't even know about it.
Charlie
smokyray
Well Known Member
Four Hundred Twenty Five Gallons
I guess it makes Charles Lindbergh's Spirit of St Louis takeoff in the mud at Long Island in 1927 with 425 gallons and a 225HP radial even more amazing...and that he navigated dead reckoning for 33 1/2 hours and found Paris... Then again, The voyager with over 1000 gallons on-board had a sporty takeoff as well...
http://www.airportappraisals.com/
Spirit of St Louis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyRGNcbeS7o
Voyager
V/R
Smokey
PS: The Spirit had enough fuel to fly for 54 hours. In his book Lindbergh commented that when he reached Paris and if he couldn't see to land he would continue on to Rome and land in daylight...
Just thinking about this, that's almost 5-55 gallon drums of fuel. Seems incredulous that one could find space for that kind of volume on an RV.
I guess it makes Charles Lindbergh's Spirit of St Louis takeoff in the mud at Long Island in 1927 with 425 gallons and a 225HP radial even more amazing...and that he navigated dead reckoning for 33 1/2 hours and found Paris...
Then again, The voyager with over 1000 gallons on-board had a sporty takeoff as well...http://www.airportappraisals.com/
Spirit of St Louis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyRGNcbeS7o
Voyager
V/R
Smokey
PS: The Spirit had enough fuel to fly for 54 hours. In his book Lindbergh commented that when he reached Paris and if he couldn't see to land he would continue on to Rome and land in daylight...
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Can I rent the tank for couple weeks Kevin? I still have some ambition left... Can pickup and drop off at your location no need to ship.
Thanks Kevin
Excellent! That's how we do business here on VAF
PM me your address and shipping quote and check will be on the way tomorrow.
Excellent! That's how we do business here on VAF
PM me your address and shipping quote and check will be on the way tomorrow.
I see Alaska in Vlad's future!
longranger
Well Known Member
Kevin or Vlad, please post photos of the seat tank!
Neal@F14
Well Known Member
Long Distance
The late Louise Sacchi at the time of her retirement had more ocean crossings in light aircraft than any other person. I believe that someone else now holds that record. The late Marion Hart made her first ocean crossing in 1953 in a Bonanza. She made several more crossings and one around the world in two different Bonanzas. She was in her 60's when she made the first crossing and was mid seventies when she made her first solo crossing.
Louise Sacchi made her first crossing as co pilot for Mrs. Hart.
EAA rotates displays in and out of the main museum. The Taylor T18 may be in one of the Pioneer Airport hangars.
The late Louise Sacchi at the time of her retirement had more ocean crossings in light aircraft than any other person. I believe that someone else now holds that record. The late Marion Hart made her first ocean crossing in 1953 in a Bonanza. She made several more crossings and one around the world in two different Bonanzas. She was in her 60's when she made the first crossing and was mid seventies when she made her first solo crossing.
Louise Sacchi made her first crossing as co pilot for Mrs. Hart.
EAA rotates displays in and out of the main museum. The Taylor T18 may be in one of the Pioneer Airport hangars.
Vlad - I've got a home for it when you're done!
You got it. If it fits my 9 it would fit yours Kevin is doing measurements now. Shipping on you
Didn't Conrad buy it taking off heavy from Frankfurt going to Kosh? Also I have seen the super 8 wet wing, the baggage tank, the rear seat tank, and some drop tanks. My question is why don't external tanks get more interest? They would seem to be safer in that you could shed them and lose a ton of weight.
Also could someone give me the gear width for the 8, from the plans I see it's 7'10" but want to verify it.
Also could someone give me the gear width for the 8, from the plans I see it's 7'10" but want to verify it.
You got it. If it fits my 9 it would fit yours Kevin is doing measurements now. Shipping on you
Shipping my foot - sounds like a good excuse for a cross-country trip!
Conrad
Max Conrad died of "natural causes" while at a friends house in NJ.
Peter Gluckman took off from Tokyo in a V tail Bonanza in an attempt to break Conrads record. He was never heard from again.
I believe the gentleman with the Lancair 4 is the current holder of the world record in that weight category. Last time I checked Dick Rutans record still stood, Alaska to Grand Turk in the Long Eze.
Max Conrad died of "natural causes" while at a friends house in NJ.
Peter Gluckman took off from Tokyo in a V tail Bonanza in an attempt to break Conrads record. He was never heard from again.
I believe the gentleman with the Lancair 4 is the current holder of the world record in that weight category. Last time I checked Dick Rutans record still stood, Alaska to Grand Turk in the Long Eze.
rbibb
Well Known Member
Bill Harrelson set a recent record - Guam to Jacksonville. Over 7,000 nautical miles and about 38.5hrs non-stop in a Lancair. He gave a presentation at our EAA Chapter that was fascinating as to the detailed planning and modifications made to the aircraft to make the flight. When departing the aircraft was highly unstable for the first few hours until enough fuel burned off to bring the CG forward enough to regain some pitch stability.
Record
Harrelson is the Lancair 4 I mentioned. I couldn't remember the name. Did he say if the record has been officially certified?? His flight got very little publicity. A really pathetic lack of coverage by the aviation press.
IIRC he was VERY low on fuel when he landed.
Harrelson is the Lancair 4 I mentioned. I couldn't remember the name. Did he say if the record has been officially certified?? His flight got very little publicity. A really pathetic lack of coverage by the aviation press.
IIRC he was VERY low on fuel when he landed.
rbibb
Well Known Member
At the time he spoke (a few weeks after the flight) I don't think it had been. He didn't mention it and I don't recall him saying anything about fuel level being a concern upon landing. He was in the midst of planning a North Pole flight that hasn't come off yet for some reason.
True, but having a BIG reserve on that trip is a good idea. There's been more than one accident from people coming up just short of the islands.
Staunch111
Well Known Member
Jon Johanson
I've been looking into this with some detail and am a little confused.
According to EAA -EHotline Dec12, 2003 I retrived the following details.
Jon Johanson with an IO-360 M1B6 180HP turbo normalized, 4 cycl, horizontallly opposed, air cooled with programable ignitiion burnt on av 7.9 Gallons p/h with an avergae speed of 162knts with a range of 5832m range.
Total endurance was planned for 36 hrs non-stopWith total fuel of 285 gallons. His take off weight was approx 3200lbs. This was the trip that planned to take him from NZ to Argentina via the South Pole, where he was forced to stop at McMurdo Sound due to strong headwinds.
Now my question is as follows - when he originally planned for his first round the world trip he was approved by Vans for 136% of Gross. How did he get the RV4 approved for weight in excess of 200% of gross? What specific structural mods are required to support this weight?
PS: I've just ordered his book but given it was written well before this event.
I've been looking into this with some detail and am a little confused.
According to EAA -EHotline Dec12, 2003 I retrived the following details.
Jon Johanson with an IO-360 M1B6 180HP turbo normalized, 4 cycl, horizontallly opposed, air cooled with programable ignitiion burnt on av 7.9 Gallons p/h with an avergae speed of 162knts with a range of 5832m range.
Total endurance was planned for 36 hrs non-stopWith total fuel of 285 gallons. His take off weight was approx 3200lbs. This was the trip that planned to take him from NZ to Argentina via the South Pole, where he was forced to stop at McMurdo Sound due to strong headwinds.
Now my question is as follows - when he originally planned for his first round the world trip he was approved by Vans for 136% of Gross. How did he get the RV4 approved for weight in excess of 200% of gross? What specific structural mods are required to support this weight?
PS: I've just ordered his book but given it was written well before this event.
Weight
In the US the gross weight is whatever number you choose to put on the paperwork. The kit manufacturer or plans seller in the case of built from scratch can only recommend limitations.
A simplistic answer for the RV4 would be that if the recommended gross weight was doubled, the G factor would be reduced by the same factor, i.e. the new G limit would be 3.0. This is still very close to the standard category limit of 3.8 G.
Another factor in many long range flights is where the fuel is located. Tanks close to the centerline of the airplane produce the most stress. Wet wing fuel comes close to a no additional stress situation.
Using the Conrad Twin Commanche as an example, the full tip tanks actually reduced the stress on the wings, as well as providing slight additional lift from tip plate effect. The Conrad airplane was so distorted from the fuel load that the cabin door would not stay closed. Conrad drilled a hole thru the door frame into the fuselage bulkhead and stuck a screwdriver thru the holes.
In the US the gross weight is whatever number you choose to put on the paperwork. The kit manufacturer or plans seller in the case of built from scratch can only recommend limitations.
A simplistic answer for the RV4 would be that if the recommended gross weight was doubled, the G factor would be reduced by the same factor, i.e. the new G limit would be 3.0. This is still very close to the standard category limit of 3.8 G.
Another factor in many long range flights is where the fuel is located. Tanks close to the centerline of the airplane produce the most stress. Wet wing fuel comes close to a no additional stress situation.
Using the Conrad Twin Commanche as an example, the full tip tanks actually reduced the stress on the wings, as well as providing slight additional lift from tip plate effect. The Conrad airplane was so distorted from the fuel load that the cabin door would not stay closed. Conrad drilled a hole thru the door frame into the fuselage bulkhead and stuck a screwdriver thru the holes.
Staunch111
Well Known Member
Jon Johanson
"In the US the gross weight is whatever number you choose to put on the paperwork. The kit manufacturer or plans seller in the case of built from scratch can only recommend limitations"
But in Australia that is not the case. For CASA you need the specific permission of the designer. He obtained one time clearances for each of his 2 prior flights.
Did Dick also provide permission for the 3rd? Can anyone clarify that?
W.r.t his wing - it was 'entirely wet' - How does one achieve that, from a structural point of veiw?
Given the 3200lb weight, what mods were done to the gear legs?
"In the US the gross weight is whatever number you choose to put on the paperwork. The kit manufacturer or plans seller in the case of built from scratch can only recommend limitations"
But in Australia that is not the case. For CASA you need the specific permission of the designer. He obtained one time clearances for each of his 2 prior flights.
Did Dick also provide permission for the 3rd? Can anyone clarify that?
W.r.t his wing - it was 'entirely wet' - How does one achieve that, from a structural point of veiw?
Given the 3200lb weight, what mods were done to the gear legs?
I believe Jon's earlier circumnavigation flights were with an aircraft built under earlier regulations that allowed amateur-built aircraft to fly but included the concept of an aircraft "designer" and requiring design approval for deviations from the approved design. (ABAA and CAO100.18/101.28)
The current experimental regulations (CASR Part 21) in Australia are somewhat different and, as far as I understand, allow you, under individually prescribed circumstances, to fly pretty much anything at all. This came in in the late '90s but I have no idea whether this allowed Jon to re-categorize his aircraft as experimental and re-engineer it for the increased MTOW, but it is possibly how it was done in a legal sense.
I know there are many and diverse opinions out there regarding the what and how of Jon's circumnavigations, but the fact remains for all time that he achieved what he did and he didn't kill himself or anyone else whilst doing it
The current experimental regulations (CASR Part 21) in Australia are somewhat different and, as far as I understand, allow you, under individually prescribed circumstances, to fly pretty much anything at all. This came in in the late '90s but I have no idea whether this allowed Jon to re-categorize his aircraft as experimental and re-engineer it for the increased MTOW, but it is possibly how it was done in a legal sense.
I know there are many and diverse opinions out there regarding the what and how of Jon's circumnavigations, but the fact remains for all time that he achieved what he did and he didn't kill himself or anyone else whilst doing it
Rutan
The last time I checked Dick Rutans Long Eze Alaska-Grand Turk nonstop world record still stands. Not nearly as much fuel or weight as Johanson but the distance was longer. IIRC Dick had a cable between the main gear legs that was jettisoned after takeoff.
For the weight category there are few if any airplanes that are as fuel efficient as the Long Eze. The design has MANY compromises to achieve this efficiency. The Vari Eze may be even more fuel efficient but probably would not get off the ground with enough fuel to make 4800 miles.
The last time I checked Dick Rutans Long Eze Alaska-Grand Turk nonstop world record still stands. Not nearly as much fuel or weight as Johanson but the distance was longer. IIRC Dick had a cable between the main gear legs that was jettisoned after takeoff.
For the weight category there are few if any airplanes that are as fuel efficient as the Long Eze. The design has MANY compromises to achieve this efficiency. The Vari Eze may be even more fuel efficient but probably would not get off the ground with enough fuel to make 4800 miles.
