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Fun times at OSH arrival

Have never had the opportunity to attend OSH and am hoping to next year. I have looked at the Notams every year for the past several years "just in case". That said, the idea of having two approach gates would seem to alleviate a lot of the problems. Mass arrivals allowed only in good VFR as discussed would also be helpful. The two ideas together would probably cure most of the problems.
 
Arrival gate

Having two arrival gates makes a lot of since BUT. With one gate "FISK" they have the ability to keep the flow going when there is a problem on the runway or mass arrivals shut down a runway for a period.
Can you imagine arriving at gate "B" and being told to use gate "A" because they are shutting down for a half hour of mass arrivals.
Single gate with multiple runways gives they more options.
No I don't have the answer either.

Maybe if they had a single gate during the MA's and limit that to only a few morning hours. Then they could have a set time of two gates with both runways and not allow 36 to be shut down for fly overs or MA's after that time.
They could still work in the IFR, Warbird, demo and show planes arrivals with regular flow.
I spent some time listening and watching arrivals Sunday and Monday and I was surprised at how slow the traffic seamed.
I thought they could have easily used 1/2 mile spacing. There were a few periods of saturation that required a few go-arounds but that seemed to be a function of controller/pilot error. The poor IFR Gulfstream went around twice and finally made the third time.
 
Flying In & Out of Oshkosh seesion today

I'm attending a forum session at 1430 today.

Flying In & Out of Oshkosh

This is presented by the NATCA Controllers.


This will be a very interesting one.
See you all at Forum Stage 6
 
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Here's an idea -

Use the same flow-control reservation paradigm that IFR traffic has to use. That way, in order to arrive VFR at OSH, you would need to obtain a reservation for a particular arrival slot in advance. This would allow them to control how many aircraft arrive at any given hour and would at least encourage people to read the NOTAM. The accountability could be manifest by not parking anyone who's tail number didn't match up with an arrival slot reservation.

Would also limit the number of mass arrivals at any given time.
 
So we hear a lot about the arrival being saturated in this thread - Was the actual runway pattern also saturated as well?

In other words, was tower consistently landing airplanes at minimum spacing?
 
I'm another that opted to stay home due to the weather outlook for Friday, Saturday and Sunday - and guessing everyone would be trying to get in Sunday afternoon and/or Monday. After reading most of this thread, I know I made the right choice. Unfortunately for Tom (TS FLightLines) Swearengen, he had to drive 18 hours instead of enjoying a relatively short flight.

It would have been my first trip to OSH. Maybe next year!
 
jakej said:
My first flight into OSH - what an interesting spectacle, I?m surprised there were no mid airs.
So now that we have ADSB don?t people realise that others can see & record what you do ? Whenever we click on an aircraft in FLT rdr24 we can see you & all of the tracking you did & it wasn?t pretty :eek:
The selfish, downright dangerous & stupid ones were obvious. I know the weather caused pent up demand for arrivals however that does not excuse the behaviour of many people.

I feel this is a watershed moment for the Oshkosh event & wonder what the FEDs must be thinking. Those who did obviously dangerous things have, IMO, just done a lot of damage to our industry & the good relationships that many people have strived to achieve with the regulators - hang your heads in shame.
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Well said, was going to fly there for the first time w my daughter so glad I didn?t go.

Someone should dedicate a website to the selfish idiots who cut people off and did dangerous things. Everyone makes mistakes but you?re absolutely rightt that thiose who blatantly cut people off and ignored the notam should be shamed. That **** could cost someone their life.
 
odens_14 said:
change 90 knots to 70 knots, and make it clear pilots can fly whichever is most comfortable for their airplane (70/1800 or 135/2300) I'm trying to think of an airplane type that can't fly at one of those speeds comfortably.
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You could specify any speed, and there will be a significant number who will insist that they have to fly at some *other* speed. There are always excuses.

I sensed that those speed differentials were adding quite a bit to the spacing problem. It doesn't matter a bit if one flies at the assigned airspeed if either a) the guy behind you is faster, or b) the guy in front is slower, or c) both, spacing is going to get all bolluxed up.

That and I wonder if the spacing is poor from the start (RIPON) because it's a choke point, and if maybe having 2 or 3 "transitions" to RIPON would help? Say, start at points A, B and maybe C with 1-mile spacing, then those three paths merge at RIPON and assume 1/2 mile spacing *at the correct speed*. Might that work instead of a jumble of aircraft all arriving at a single point from multiple directions and at varying speeds?

Thinking out loud here...
 
The ATC forum was predictable. Multiple approaches would just move problems elsewhere, and the ubiquitous "staffing shortages" excuses. They tend to believe the mass arrivals are /more/ efficient because they land 3 abreast the 2 36s.

The big shocker is a ton of time was gummed up from an "unplanned/unannounced" mass arrival of 70(!!!) T-6 Texans. How the **** can you have a mass arrival that OSH controllers know nothing about? Something's amiss there, or someone needs their butt chewed royally for that if that really is true that the Texan mass arrival was completely unknown.
 
A couple of thoughts/ observations. On Sunday the pattern was surprisingly quiet due to the mass arrival of the Mooneys, bonanzas and T-6s. I was expecting a mass arrival of single aircraft hitting their dots on 36, it didn?t materialize. I assumed at the time the wx was bad at Ripon.
I?m sure it was nice to have Music playing while they announced your call sign but with the mess at Ripon EAA should have stepped in and stopped the mass arrival show. Land in your spot and move off the runway like everyone else. Perhaps a minimum wx standard should be established. If it?s 3000 and 5 your mass arrival is good to go, otherwise it?s canceled...get in line.
 
sahrens said:
I?m sure it was nice to have Music playing while they announced your call sign but with the mess at Ripon EAA should have stepped in and stopped the mass arrival show.
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I wasn?t aware of this one, I thought the mass arrivals would be setup to maximize runway utilization, not a single file parade.
 
So the mass Mooney arrival sahrens mentioned... We flew out together from CA and as he said arrived on Saturday. Some issues there but nothing like Sunday.

We happened to be out there during the Mooney mass arrival, and I gotta say it was ridiculous. Elements A through Z or whatever, looked like each element was a three ship. A female announcer/pilot from the group on the PA introduced each one ?element whatever, lead by Billy Bob from Podunk, call sign crusher - blah blah for each one. This went on for ages as the song ?Ride of the Valkyrie? played over and over. Are you s*&tting me?

I was ambivalent the about mass arrival issues until this trip, but the Mooney BS put it over the top. You want a mass arrival? OK, here?s your slot time and weather mins, miss it and that?s just too bad.
 
Re: cutting in line

I'm not at Oshkosh this year and I've only flown in myself once. Fortunately on my flight which occurred on Monday morning last year, I had good weather. Although I did not personally observe any bad airmanship, I would describe the experience as rather chaotic. From the sound of it, I guess I was just lucky.

Having just read this entire thread, I would like to better understand what people mean when that say that they observed people cutting in line.
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.
 
Monday arrival

Our Monday mid morning arrival sounds like a lot of your arrivals. We were in one hold or another for over 2hours, thankfully fuel was not an issue.

A couple of suggestions / observations;

We were in hold for over 3/4 hour when the B1 arrived. Why can't they arrive during the airshow? It would be exciting and easy to plan in and not disruptive to the rest of us. This delay snowballed into total loss of control by ATC.

The mass arrivals are fine but they should have a different entrance and be restricted to just one runway. If conditions don't allow, then get in line with everyone else!

Don't restrict or disrespect spam cans because this is the EAA. I discovered experimental by flying into OSH with my Cardinal before I knew anything about RVs or home building! I was introduced to the most exciting and satisfying building, ownership, and flying community imaginable! Don't remove this opportunity from future builders.

Holding special events (beer tasting Sunday night) and others, creates a lot of "get there itis" I love these events and understand their existence but .......

Just some thoughts.
 
joe_rainbolt said:
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.
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This is EXACTLY what we?re saying. When people don?t even bother to read or let alone follow the NOTAM, there should be repercussions.
 
joe_rainbolt said:
I'm not at Oshkosh this year and I've only flown in myself once. Fortunately on my flight which occurred on Monday morning last year, I had good weather. Although I did not personally observe any bad airmanship, I would describe the experience as rather chaotic. From the sound of it, I guess I was just lucky.

Having just read this entire thread, I would like to better understand what people mean when that say that they observed people cutting in line.
Is it that some aircraft joined the line between Ripon and Fisk without having first flown over Ripon?
Were these bad actors not actually over the railroad tracks?

I can certainly understand why someone who was directly over the railroad tracks and had their altitude and airspeed nailed, would be infuriated at seeing someone else passing them on the right (or anywhere else) or entering the line ahead of them.
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I saw lots of short cuts over Rush Lake, joining well inside Ripon, or my favourite: turning right at Fisk and flying against traffic just South of the track
 
Toobuilder said:
So we hear a lot about the arrival being saturated in this thread - Was the actual runway pattern also saturated as well?

In other words, was tower consistently landing airplanes at minimum spacing?
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Not Sunday afternoon on 36L and 36R. Not even close.
 
Is this the EAA or the CAA

I?m a little confused here. Is this the Experimental Aircraft Association or the Certificated Aircraft Association?

No disrespect intentended here but all of these spam can drivers want what we have. So why exactly do Cessna, Mooney, Bonanza, etc mass gaggle fly ins get priority? If ANYONE should get priority, it should be an Experimental aircraft on the arrival.

READ THE NOTAM, join the line at RIPON like the rest of us, fly the course rules as directed in the NOTAM and come join the fun. You want a Cessna, Bonanza, etc reunion, please go somewhere else.
 
I think we're missing the mark here. This is sponsored by the EAA, but is intended to bring all GA and beyond aircraft together so we can learn from each other. Not to be political here but people are getting a little too segregational with this whole thing. Yes the focus is on Experimental, but if it wasn't for the certified realm, we wouldn't even exist. The issue isn't with the mass arrivals and what airplane is which, but with the fact that they are rejecting experimentals in lieu of certified's which have abided by the NOTAM. The plain and simple fact is the arrival process needs to evolve to accept such a large number of aircraft. The mass arrival's are just playing by the rules to get a large number of XX type in at the same time allowing them to essentially circumvent the NOTAM, and it makes it easier for them, but screws the rest of us. As has been said previously, almost all of us have had our start in certified's; we are forgetting our roots thinking we are better than everyone else since we are flying an Experimental and this is put on by an association representing experimentals. I can't fault them for abiding by the rules, but the rules need to change to meet the number of aircraft that are being seen at such events. Finger pointing is not the answer. Maybe once everyone returns home and cooler heads prevail we can provide Vic with useful input that will add to the conversation.
 
DanH said:
Not Sunday afternoon on 36L and 36R. Not even close.
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We went from Fisk to approach end of 36L/R around 4PM Sunday - I agree with this assessment. We parked off the E-W road and mostly stood around waiting for aircraft to arrive. Listening to the tower frequency it sounded more like a lazy Sunday afternoon at my home field than the "busiest airport in the world". A few bizjets/King Air types calling in "3 mile final" and the occasional Fisk arrival. Given our experience watching the madhouse at Ripon and Fisk could not understand why so many aircraft were turned back at Fisk.

We then went around to approach end of 9 which was reasonably busy but not consistently so.

I admittedly am an Oshkosh rookie but I've watched dozens if not more YouTube videos of OSH arrivals and none of what I saw on Sunday resembled that. Happy to know that this issue has full attention of EAA with great folks like Vic Syracuse being involved.
 
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I just left the Young Eagles awards banquet and Jack Pelton mentioned briefly the difficulties weather presented this year for Friday, Saturday and Sunday arrivals. He said they were going to re-examine arrival procedures for next year?s AirVenture. The growth in GA traffic (both certified and experimental) has really put a strain on ATC and airport resources. I strongly suspect next year arrival procedures will be different.
 
The idea of mass arrivals going away isn’t going to happen.

AirVenture is all about money for the EAA. Upsetting large groups of members, donors and owners groups with sponsorships is NOT going to happen.

The idea of controllers telling everyone in line between Ripon and Fisk to turn left only compounds the problem. How about “blue Cessna over Ripon, rock your wings. Ok. Good rock, blue Cessna I’m sorry I can’t get you a runway, turn left head back to Ripon and I’ll get you next round”. Or better yet “blue Cessna turn left make left traffic around Rush Lake” and no more RR track arrivals until Rush lake is empty.
 
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Timberwolf said:
but if it wasn't for the certified realm, we wouldn't even exist.
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I think we got it backwards and that?s part of the problem. If it wasn?t for EXPERIMENTAL aviation, we would not be where we?re at now. Just ask Wilbur and Orville.

I?m all about including everyone, HOWEVER, you gotta follow the rules and follow the protocols. If you don?t, there should be repercussions. Like someone else mentioned, let?s do a 10,000 RV mass gaggle fly in. How long do you think that would close OSH down for?
 
The Mooney Caravan landed 61 airplanes in less than 10 minutes. They fly and land as elements of 3 with 15 second spacing between elements.

The Mooney Caravan procedures are professionally produced and are included as part of the letter of agreement with the FAA. They can be viewed here:https://sites.google.com/site/mooneycaravan/caravan-procedures

The go / no-go decision matrix for launching the formation can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rFuMD3CFwQICukY9QF1F4gY1_SUB-JsK/view

All pilots that participate in the formation are required to attend clinics and demonstrate formation proficiency. Training and preparation for flying into Oshkosh is a year round process. Last year regional clinics were held in Arizona, Virginia, Kansas, Texas and California. You can view the formation and training materials here: https://sites.google.com/site/mooneycaravan/training

By the time pilots arrive in Madison for staging they are knowledgeable and have practiced all procedures including aborts, diversion airports, emergencies and alternate runway landing procedures. They also brief and are familiar with the standard OSH Notam. All have participated in one or more mass formations before they fly to OSH and have flown formation with their element. Many have flown previously flown the Fisk arrival and now prefer to fly with the Caravan because it is more structured (safer).

Just because the Mooney pilots did not build their own airplane please do not disparage this group of aviators. They are as enthusiastic about all things aviation related as my friends in the homebuilt community are. They commit to training for flying into Oshkosh because they want to make sure they get in safely with as little impact on the runways and facilities as possible. The pilots look forward to flying to Wisconsin all year and Oshkosh is the pinnacle of their flying season. Oh- and more than a few Mooney pilots have been known to home build as well;)
 
No disparaging going on here. All I?m saying is read the NOTAM, follow the NOTAM.

After stopping at Dodge County airport, 50+/- NM south of OSH here?s what I heard from some of the Cessna mass gaggle participants:

?Should I be at 90 knots or 135 knots. I don?t know, I was in the back and could not hear the brief.?

Seriously?!?!?

Here?s your ?experienced?, ?well briefed? pilots. Oh, I?ll just follow the guys in front. Never mind READING THE NOTAM FOR YOURSELF!!!
 
Sunday

Well cheated death one more time from Ripon to Fisk!Im going to say this in a nice way if you think you have a problem with your plane or your low on gas or have a sick passanger there are at lest 5 airports close by STOP and get your problem handled before coming to Ripon and having the controller clear the whole track for you its not fair to those who stopped and took care of there problems before they got there.On Sundaythe time I spent on the tracks was very scary to say the lest and most people said the hold around the lake was the same.Not sure what the answer is maybe we should try it one year without the controllers and see if its any worse.

Bob
 
thinkn9a said:
Flow control

- simple system..... using registration numbers,.... group them into 3 or 4 groups,... assign them a time slot e.g. on hour to 15 min after,.... 15 min after to 30 min after,... if your number is not up,....you are not allowed within 10 miles of RIPON,.... fairly simple check could be made at touchdown if you are in your group or not,...
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The problem with most ideas like this is there is no way to regulate compliance. Do you think the guy that dangerously cut in front of you would think twice about arriving without a reservation? Remember, he was wrongly delayed due to bad wx and therefore those rules don't apply to him. Without flight plans and clearances, there is no way to police a reservation based system.

However, I do think that assigning additional controllers specifically to the task of identifying inappropriate behavior and generally managing the traffice between Ripon and Fiske, as well as the holding patterns is called for. They simple relay the data about who to turn off to the Fiske controller. Or, better yet, have a separate Ripon frequency and these controls primary role would be to organize the lines before they get to fiske and better manage the holds. They would have MUCH more time to deal with the jerks and call them off based upon merit. Because they would have no clearance responsibility, they would have plenty of time to force compliance with procedures and punish only those not complying. This could help to minimize the crazy behavior that is guaranteed to get progressively worse each year.

I also noticed MUCH lighter pattern and landing traffic than the past 2 years and believe a big problem this year was with the Fiske controllers or possibly the tower controllers demand too light of a load from the Fiske controllers. The fact that I was given the wrong frequency from the fiske controller tells me they were either green or simply "over their skis." This was the first Osh controller that I have experienced that I did not find impressive and in full control of their environment.

Larry
 
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Turbo69bird said:
Well said, was going to fly there for the first time w my daughter so glad I didn’t go.

Someone should dedicate a website to the selfish idiots who cut people off and did dangerous things. Everyone makes mistakes but you’re absolutely rightt that thiose who blatantly cut people off and ignored the notam should be shamed. That **** could cost someone their life.
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about 1+ miles from Fiske, I had a twin come in from my rear right. He slide in directly underneath me with about a 100-200' vertical separation. The sad part was we were close enough to Fiske that the controllers HAD to see it. She didn't say a word and just sent us off to different runways to eliminate the conflict. This was shortly after the field went VFR on Sunday and they hadn't yet become frustrated and started just peeling everyone off the approach. However, I am sure events like this were what led to their frustration and subsequent behavior.

Larry
 
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There is not even a shadow of a doubt that the entire system collapsed this year, and while its really interesting to think of ideas to make it work better, none of those thoughts really matter until we figure out the precise reasons for the collapse of a system that has worked for years. There was not a doubling of arrivals - I would guess that the total number fo folks trying to get in was roughly the same as the previous year. There were, no doubt, multiple triggers, as there are for most accidents and mishaps. What I find interesting is that what we learned was that the system was operating so close to capacity that when those triggers appeared, teh collapse wasn’t gradual - it was total, like putting a nick in a cylindrical column under load.

One thing we should be careful about is asking for ATC to be enforcers. Yeah, I want the transgressors punished too - but frankly, the potential for mis-identifications is so high, do you really want to be targeted for something you didn’t do at an event you came to enjoy? And once ATC learns how to do enforcement, do you think they will leave that culture in Wisconsin? Their job is moving traffic, not writing tickets, and I’d like to keep it that way....

Lastly, let’s be careful about targeting other groups....I have talked to quite a few fellow experimental drivers this week, and listened to their stories - and there are as many of them who simply decided that their arrival at Oshkosh was important enough to bend, twist, or break the rules to justify how they got in. You either followed the rules or you didn’t - and if you didn’t then it would be good not to throw any stones at others.
 
Ironflight said:
......none of those thoughts really matter until we figure out the precise reasons for the collapse of a system that has worked for years.....
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I think that is an overstatement. The arrival system has been incrementally deteriorating as traffic increases and more and more groups seek out special handling, i.e. mass arrivals, airliner and military arrivals, etc., which frustrates everyone else. Hopefully, EAA and FAA are not going to return to their reactionary ways and only work to improve things after an accident. Several mid-airs south of OSH would be huge black eye for EAA.

The randomness of outcomes on the arrival turn it into a competitive affair that ultimately leads me to decide that I don't want any part of it. This year, my RV was securely tied down at MSN along with a 100 or more like minded pilots of both experimental and certificated planes.
 
I have to say that I gave up on OSH over a decade ago, the year that I walked up to Homebuilt Headquarters to register and pick up my 'I flew my homebuilt to OSH' ID pin, and the volunteer told me that they couldn't afford to give those out any more. He had to repeat it, since I couldn't hear him over the roar of a jet drag truck doing a pass down the runway.

It really is all about the money. Look at any year's stats of homebuilt numbers, Warbird numbers, GA numbers, and then the 'body count' (people that didn't even fly in). EAA's money comes from the dreamers and gawkers who are more excited about seeing a jet truck or current tech military hardware than they are about homebuilts. I'd offer that most of the 'bodies' are barely aware that homebuilts even exist. We're such a tiny drop in the money bucket, and even the attraction bucket, that we've become insignificant. In a recent issue of Sport Aviation, the 1st article about a homebuilt was on page ninety something.

Now, from an 'outside observer', here's a conspiracy theory to chew on. It sounds as if the degradation in ATC handling this year was quite a bit more than incremental. Has anyone looked at who the controllers were? Did the list consist primarily of those who had been there/done that before, like it usually does? Or were there a lot of inexperienced controllers in the mix this year? If there were, why? Was it that all the experienced ones retired, or suddenly didn't want to come? Or did inexperienced ones get *assigned* to come? If they were assigned, who gave the order? I have no idea on what the answers are. But it is interesting that FAA/OSH conflicts have historically coincided with issues in the P word that's supposed to be verboten on this forum.

Charlie
 
OSH

I think the truth of the matter is the Ripon to Fisk has had its problems for a few years (I know it has for 5 years) with such a difference in speed in so many different kinds of aircraft.Here just a dumb idea on how to make things better have an arrival for the 9-27 from the north and an arrival for 36-18 from the south brief controllers on the importance of not freaking out all the time and sending people back to the start as that's were it gets all kinds of crossed up traffic with planes flying at each other.Second if you are experiencing some difficulty land and fix it before you arrive on my three trips down the track it was cleared with left turn by controller to accommodate three planes that had not prepared which stopped the flow three times in 15 min and all three were not really emergencies 1.Stinson I had maintenance on my tailwheel and Im not sure if it working 2.I have been I this airplane for 4 hours and I have a sick passanger 3. Im low on fuel. All in 15 min.Maybe it should be put in the notam MAKE SURE YOUR READY BEFORE FISK IF NOT STOP AND GET READY AT ANOTHER AIRPORT were there is not a HUNDRED or TWO trying to fly an Approach.
Bob
 
Minor observation

I listened to the Fiske Furball ATC broadcast with mounting alarm and amazement. Experiencing a low-fuel emergency while waiting to get into Oshkosh seems utterly, totally inexcusable.

I'd say that this would never happen to me, but I think that's a dangerous attitude to take. So I've been thinking about what explains it, and how it might happen to me.

To state the obvious, ATC shouldn't be hearing low fuel emergency calls at OSH, and shouldn't have to tell a pilot holding over the lake that he or she needs to go to an alternate if low on fuel. That pilot should have made that decision, without bothering ATC, about an hour ago.

I have more sympathy for people with sick passengers requesting priority. But again, unless there's a medical emergency (or the material threat of one), why on Earth wouldn't you just promptly divert to a nearby airport?!?

My best theory: I think as pilots we can get target fixation, or maybe destination fixation. I've certainly commenced go-arounds later than I should have, because my brain and ego are too committed to landing. Maybe the same kind of thing is going on here.

And/or maybe pilots distracted by the risks of flying the Furball simply lost concentration on the subject of fuel. I like to think it would be front and center in my mind after an hour of circling, but I've never flown in anything like that, so maybe not.
 
RV8JD said:
Yup, this! And MONEY (Big $$$$$ ...) is why the EAA has generally been opened up to all segments of GA. ;)

http://seaplanemagazine.com/2017/07/27/eaa-good-place-jack-pelton-says/

"EAA Treasurer Stuart Auerbach reported total income for fiscal 2017 was $47.9 million, which is ?an increase of $11 million, or 30 percent over the previous year,? he said. "​
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rv7charlie said:
..
Now, from an 'outside observer', here's a conspiracy theory to chew on. It sounds as if the degradation in ATC handling this year was quite a bit more than incremental. Has anyone looked at who the controllers were? Did the list consist primarily of those who had been there/done that before, like it usually does? Or were there a lot of inexperienced controllers in the mix this year? If there were, why? Was it that all the experienced ones retired, or suddenly didn't want to come? Or did inexperienced ones get *assigned* to come? If they were assigned, who gave the order? I have no idea on what the answers are. But it is interesting that FAA/OSH conflicts have historically coincided with issues in the P word that's supposed to be verboten on this forum.

Charlie
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Didn't Jack Pelton say at the opening of this year's AirVenture that the FAA agreed not to charge EAA for ATC this year. Saved the organization about $400,000 if I recall correctly.

I hate to be cynical but could it be a case of "you get what you pay for"?
 
With cameras and recorders the way they are today, it's going to be rather interesting to see what Youtube offers up over the next several weeks to put the madness on display. This year was a cluster of the first order, we are very lucky no midair's happened.
 
chrispratt said:
Didn't Jack Pelton say at the opening of this year's AirVenture that the FAA agreed not to charge EAA for ATC this year. Saved the organization about $400,000 if I recall correctly.

I hate to be cynical but could it be a case of "you get what you pay for"?
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I know you've been around long enough to know better than to make that comment (unless you're just trolling me). I guess 1984 has finally arrived, and revisionist history is now the rule of the day (especially given other current events). The 1st time FAA tried that trick, there was justifiable outrage all across the pilot community. Now we're supposed to be grateful that they *didn't* try it. Why should the EAA, or the pilots, be grateful that we didn't get charged twice for service?

The issue is that the participants obviously *did NOT* get what they paid for.

Charlie
 
OSH Trip Information 2018

We arrived in a C-172N, as planned from the Midwest, at 2:00 pm Sunday and held over Green Lake WI 1.8 Hrs. The 2:00 pm time was as early as weather was predicted to be VFR. Diverted to Portage WI and the 3 of us decided to stay overnight due to Fisk arrival radio continuing with "turn left". Departed Portage 8:00 am and held 1.7 Hrs at Green Lake and heard the calls as noted in other posts. Finally ATC called Green Lake planes in. 70 Kts and variable spacing and we arrived OSH.
Monday, T-6 female back seater told us that they had been at an Iowa airport practicing for the overhead break mass arrival and ATC "wouldn't allow it" as planned when they arrived Sunday. The T-6's took more time in the unplanned approach Sunday. We departed Wednesday due to incoming rain at OSH. Fortunately those that were cleared to OSH arrived safely. Our observation was that, with the weather turning VFR at 2:00 pm Sunday, 2 days worth of airplanes tried to arrive in 6 Hrs.
 
I also heard the towers refuse the overhead on the mass arrivals.

It was a scramble for them to reconfigure...
 
Oshkosh

I have flown in to OSH many times, but not for a while. This year I parked at MSN so I could rent a car. I listened to the OSH arrivals on Sun afternoon and watched on Mon morning.
My observation is that where they used to have as many as six airplanes touching down at more or less the same time on 9-27, now they seem to be standard separation, one at a time. My take would be that someone at a high level in the FAA mandated this. Is this get even on the part of the FAA for the charging for ATC services? I don't know.
I do wish the FAA would get very serious about the military types that think a F18 low pass over the crowd during a non waivered period is cool.
Its not if but when. It happened in the US in the 50's resulting in a total ban on airshows.
This was the 49th Oshkosh. I have been to all of them. Half a century nest July for OSH!!!
 
My take says someone senior in the FAA crew was new to OSH, or under the microscope.

I arrived Saturday afternoon, visibility good, but ceiling marginal the last 30 miles or so. At 10 out from Ripon the ATIS said IFR, but at 5 it switched to VFR. As I discovered in due course, there were about five airplanes waiting, plus me. Sure seemed like great timing.

Ok, the five start inbound. As I pass Ripon, the Fisk controller comes up and says the field is closed, because the Bonanza group is about to depart, from Fond du Lac, IIRC.

Naturally the five inbound over the tracks protested, the theme being "The Bonanzas are not here, and we are". The controller was apologetic, but said he had orders from the tower, and there was nothing he could do.

I headed for Green Lake, figuring the BTO bunch would clear in 45 minutes tops, and there was no crowd otherwise. No sooner got there when the Fisk controller announced BTO was not yet airborne, and he could now offer us 27...which was 010 at 15-G21. No thanks, I'll wait. About three more minutes, and he says the BTO group has elected to say put, so we can have 36, unless they launch after all, in which case we will have to take 27. I'm thinking "You gotta be kidding me" while doing Warp 6 back to Ripon.

The inbound was boring, although to be fair, it wasn't at 1800. Never saw another airplane; on frequency I counted five dispatched to runways before I reached Pickett. The one in front of me was leaving the runway as I turned final for 36L.

Point is, someone calling the shots was playing very conservative about runway conflict, on Saturday with almost no traffic. Any basic tower radar would have allowed tracking the incoming Bonanzas, not to mention that the BTO lead probably has a radio. There was no good reason to close the Ripon arrival before the BTO even launched.

It appears that Sunday was just more of the same...someone decided the best way to eliminate runway conflict was to order metering into effect at Fisk.
 
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Sounds like the Bonanza group had a great trip in that they successfully screwed up 3 airports, one of them twice. As I flew past Rockford, they blanketed Runway 1, making a 767 and others to use the crossing runway.

They screwed up Fond Du Lac twice, the first time was their mass diversion into it. The second was their mass reforming on and departure from FLD's runway.

Of course the final coup de grace was screwing up OSH. Such a deal. It must be great having the whole aviation world revolve around you.

The unpredictability of these mass arrival movements caused me to give up on getting to OSH, instead tieing down at MSN and accepting the extra expense of a rental car to get to OSH. it's obviously time to end this mass arrival nonsense. They've taken over.

Next year, I'll think real hard about whether it's worth it to even get to Airventure.
 
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Just read this entire thread twice. It?s a painful read for me. I?ve seen it coming. What you all speak of as far as the ATC service has been years in the making. It seems to have reached a crescendo this year.

I encourage you all to reach out to the EAA leadership. They are not driven by OSH revenue, they truly love this event and love aviation. They have more influence than you think, and they can/will effect change. They need to hear from you. They need to know that it?s real...if you believe it is. Please take a moment and reach out to them.

OSH is the busiest airport on the planet for 1 week/year.
How are those controllers selected for such an important task?
Are they the ?SEAL Team 6? of controllers?
Are they the ?best and brightest??

Write the board. Do it.
 
We hear you. We have been meeting on it and are meeting again @ 6:45 again this am.
It is no easy fix, but very smart people are involved (NOT including myself in that part of the statement) and I have the highest confidence some real changes and good willl come out of it.

Until then, it does no one any good to diss any other aviators for being here. This is the worlds largest Aviation event, and yes it was started by EAA, it it is super inclusive. Many of us started flying in certified stuff, and MANY of us still fly both.

TOGETHER we will continue to grow, and everyone has a responsibility to be apart of the solution, including reading the notams and understanding the implications of a weather forecast.

I?m sure the NOTAM will be SUPER IMPORTANT reading next year. 😀

Hang in there. This is supposed to be FUN!

Vic
 
vic syracuse said:
I?m sure the NOTAM will be SUPER IMPORTANT reading next year.
Click to expand...

The NOTAM needs to clearly outline, for everyone, when to expect the mass arrivals.

(I plan to use such information to make an easy go-nogo decision weeks in advance. If mass arrivals aren't eliminated for all groups experimental and certified, then I won't bother.)
 
Something systemic is going on this year in flow metering. Not counting the mess on the first days, and maybe it's just me... But I'm not seeing nearly the same amount of runway traffic this whole week.
 
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