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ADS-B operating experiences

flytoday

Well Known Member
Starting a new thread to collect ADS-B stories/observations from pilots/users about operating any ADS-B system on the ground or in the airspace.

When I'm not ANONYMOUS the website FlightAware is displaying my position, even without Flight Following, and retains a plot of my flight(s) for some days. So far all those flights are within or close to the Houston 30 mile ModeC veil.

My Garmin GDL82 unit consistently takes a few minutes to lock in a GPS position. The 82 will not transmit ADS-B out data until my Mode C transponder is squawking altitude. While the transponder is in Standby mode the 82 does not transmit any signals. I can tell what I'm broadcasting on ADS-B OUT from ForeFlight and selecting MORE/DEVICES/SCOUT/OWNSHIP.

While in flight, and the 82's Anonymous Mode is switched on or off, most of the time ForeFlight calls out traffic once on myself. It is quick, and doesn't last more than a few seconds. Typically there is a single audible call in my headset of traffic essentially right here with me!

Today I flew to a Houston area airport that does not use radar separation. They could not verify that my ADS-B OUT signal was working.

IF ANYONE FROM THE FAA IS LISTENING I'd recommend that each US Control tower be equipped with a Scout receiver, an iPad, and ForeFlight (or similar hardware and software). For less than $1000 that tower could then see at least some/most?/all? of the ADS-B OUT traffic on that iPad. Another tool for the controllers to help locate traffic and view their relative positions/groundspeeds/altitudes/and possibly call signs.

Returning home from the towered airport I contacted Approach Control for Flight Following and was assigned a discrete transponder code. The frequency was quiet so I asked if the controller could see my ADS-B data. The controller's response indicated to me that they did not have the equipment or training to use ADS-B data, and were possibly unaware of ADS-B features.

Your Mileage May Vary....

Carl
..
 
GDL 82 initial experience

Just passed my validation test this week so I am anxious to see the traffic and weather on my Garmin 696 connected via cable to a GArmin GDL 39.

What I was very surprised to learn was that Approach controllers do not have the equipment to take advantage of the data from mandated ADSB out equipped aircraft.

I talked to two different Approach control centers, Joshua Approach and SoCal Approach and got the same answer. Only "Centers" have the equipment required to receive ADSB out data. Most RV pilots do not use Center very often due to altitude where I fly, so I am baffled of the value of ADSB out to approach controllers to separate aircraft and therefore improve safety etc. Will the Approach controllers be getting the equipment required someday?? If not, it seems the selling of the mandate by the FAA requiring all aircraft that operate in the defined airspace, B, C etc have ADSB out was misleading
 
Just passed my validation test this week so I am anxious to see the traffic and weather on my Garmin 696 connected via cable to a GArmin GDL 39.

What I was very surprised to learn was that Approach controllers do not have the equipment to take advantage of the data from mandated ADSB out equipped aircraft.

I talked to two different Approach control centers, Joshua Approach and SoCal Approach and got the same answer. Only "Centers" have the equipment required to receive ADSB out data. Most RV pilots do not use Center very often due to altitude where I fly, so I am baffled of the value of ADSB out to approach controllers to separate aircraft and therefore improve safety etc. Will the Approach controllers be getting the equipment required someday?? If not, it seems the selling of the mandate by the FAA requiring all aircraft that operate in the defined airspace, B, C etc have ADSB out was misleading

The plan is, of course, to go ALL ADS-B eventually, assuming the project gets funding. As for the controllers not knowing it, well, they have no reason to worry about it until the equipment hits their facility - then they?ll get some quick in-house training, and be up to speed. But why learn it ( and use up those brain cells) until you can use it?
 
I?d go as far as saying adsb anonymous mode is anonymous to other aircraft, but not the FAA. When I first installed my navworx a few years ago I get an call on Monday morning from a guy with the FAA saying my adsb has failed. Truth is I flew only 7 minutes and their system missed some of the info, thereby saying my system failed. I asked the FAA gentleman how they could even see my adsb as I was in anonymous mode and never spoke to any controller. His response was ?I?m not a manufacturer you would have to ask them.? I thought that was kind of odd and was my first tip-off us users didn?t quite have the truth.

Second thing with adsb, I?ve experienced the same thing with none of the approaches having adsb yet. Who is ensuring the FAA is accountable for their own system upgrades by 2020? I wouldn?t be surprised if we got the old shaft that the users must be upgraded but they get some extension due to unforeseen circumstances.
 
Seems to be some disconnect between what is being reported and this official statement about the state of ADS-B usage:

" FAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
Your ADS-B Questions Answered: Get the Facts Here
Notice Number: NOTC7575

Your ADS-B Questions Answered: Get the Facts Here

Question: Will the January 1, 2020 ADS-B Out compliance date be extended? And is it true that the airlines have been allowed to delay their installation?

Answer: The FAA has consistently demonstrated its commitment to the January 1, 2020 ADS-B Out compliance date.

The rule was published in May 2010, nearly ten years in advance to allow ample time for the production and installation of equipment on aircraft and complete deployment of the ATC ground network (completed in 2014). ADS-B is currently used by ATC in all but the smallest facilities where integration with the automation is on track to support the compliance date.

Equipment options are varied and plentiful; there are approved ADS-B systems for almost all aircraft types. Manufacturers share this information with the FAA which is available through a searchable database at http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb...nt/adsb_ready/

The rumor that airlines have been given a delay to the January 1, 2020 ADS-B Out compliance date is not true. Exemption 12555 allows the use of older GPS equipment until 2025, but still requires that operators install and operate rule-compliant ADS-B Out equipment by January 1, 2020.

With all this in place, there is no need and no reason to expect a delay in the compliance date of January 1, 2020.

Don?t Get Left in the Hangar. Equip Now!

There?s only 24 months remaining before the 2020 ADS-B Out equipage deadline.

For more information, please visit the Equip ADS-B website www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/.

Questions about equipping? Please see our FAQs or contact us at [email protected]."
 
The plan is, of course, to go ALL ADS-B eventually, assuming the project gets funding. As for the controllers not knowing it, well, they have no reason to worry about it until the equipment hits their facility - then they?ll get some quick in-house training, and be up to speed. But why learn it ( and use up those brain cells) until you can use it?

A counterpoint, controllers should understand ADS-B now because pilots are now making decisions using ADS-B data - the weather uplink, traffic advisories, etc. If there is a partial or complete outage (hopefully temporary) of the ADS-B ground station/system ATC will need to understand the impact and communicate with the pilots. When controllers talk to pilot groups and when pilots visit towers, approach controls, centers the controllers should be able to intelligently talk about ADS-B.

I'm also curious if ATC will eventually change their traffic advisory phraseology from "Altitude 2000' UNVERIFIED" regarding traffic that they are not talking to, to some other phrase indicating that the altitude that ATC observes comes from ADS-B, which is supposed to be super precise.

Carl
..
 
I have had full ADS-B since late 2013 and have on a few occasions asked ATC about if they receive it. None I have asked in the Central Florida area have even know what I was talking about. They did not understand the acronym.
Exception was about two years ago a bored tower controller in KDAB Daytona asked me about my ADS-B as he was seeing it. Said I was the first he had seen with full ADS-B. I think they were an early test bed since Emery Riddle is on the field and they equiped early.
 
Seems to be some disconnect between what is being reported and this official statement about the state of ADS-B usage:

The rule was published in May 2010, nearly ten years in advance to allow ample time for the production and installation of equipment on aircraft and complete deployment of the ATC ground network (completed in 2014). ADS-B is currently used by ATC in all but the smallest facilities where integration with the automation is on track to support the compliance date.

Maybe Los Angeles and Houston are some of the smallest facilities in the US? :eek:

This RED sentence damages the credibility of the entire message and of the agency regarding ADS-B.

Carl
..
 
A counterpoint, controllers should understand ADS-B now because pilots are now making decisions using ADS-B data - the weather uplink, traffic advisories, etc.
..
Lots of airplanes have been utilizing weather uplink and traffic advisories, terrain warning, etc for ten to twenty years. Starting with TCAS back in the 90's on bizjets and airliners, terrain warning soon after that, and weather uplinks. Many light airplanes have been getting traffic through TIS, uplink weather through services like WSI and XM, and terrain awareness with the use of GPS and EFIS for more than ten years. Controllers are used to pilots utilizing these kinds of onboard tools and have been for years. So, ADSB in does not really represent a big change as far as controllers are concerned. As Paul and others have stated, when the system is complete, they will be able to do their job using ADSB out information. I don't think there is any conspiracy here.
I've had ADSB in and out for about four years and love it. Before that, I had the other systems mentioned above, and they served me well.
 
I routinely fly with ATC multiple times per week in the RV-10. When I am given a traffic alert by ATC, I reply that I am looking and have them on the ADSB. I have never been asked "what's ADSB."

Vic
 
I've been ads-b compliant for two years. Love it!

The Denver TRACON tells me that they CAN see ads-b data. It's currently an optional data stream that requires the controller to request it. Some (most?) don't display it. They only care about VFR traffic as it relates to traffic separation, so mode C data is all they want to see. Tower controllers usually only get what the TRACON controller is displaying on their screens.

I guess I see more traffic and data than they do...BTW, it's nice to see other's N numbers, especially at uncontrolled fields, but I understand people wanting to remain anonymous.
 
Replying to ATC that you see traffic on ADSB

At FAA sponsored safety seminars over the past few years conducted by air traffic controllers they continually remind pilots that when ATC advises a pilot of a traffic alert replying that you have it on your "fish finder" or TIS or TCAS is a waste of your breath and radio time. Until you visually acquire the traffic they must continue to provide further alerts until traffic is no longer a factor.

I presume replying that you see traffic on your ADSB device would be he same.

Maybe one of the air traffic controllers could comment on this situation.

The FAA's assurance that ADSB is active in all but the smallest facilities is not accurate in Southern California. Nevertheless, in the crowded skies of SoCal having ADSB to improve traffic situational awareness was worth the 2K$ for the Garmin GDL 82 (including connectors, cable etc) I recently installed in my 6A. The Garmin GDL 82 with integral WAAS was relatively easy to install and works perfectly with my old King KT76C transponder. Really happy with the GDL82
 
At FAA sponsored safety seminars over the past few years conducted by air traffic controllers they continually remind pilots that when ATC advises a pilot of a traffic alert replying that you have it on your "fish finder" or TIS or TCAS is a waste of your breath and radio time. Until you visually acquire the traffic they must continue to provide further alerts until traffic is no longer a factor.

Affirmative. The couple of times I tried "have parallel traffic on ADS-B" was met with immediate "report traffic in sight". And I thought, like, mmmkay, but my tired eyes sure can't TRACK the enemy as good as this little computer can... :rolleyes:

Another experience: had a couple of ghost targets sent up via TIS-B to my Dynon for a good fifteen minutes. Which led me to look up all the security and authentication features designed into ADS-B, of which there seem to be none. Scary stuff, defeatable with a $20 USB dongle from eBay. 2020? LOL.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ludicrous that in this here 2018 we still use ANALOG VOICE transmissions to signal our intentions to folks sitting in an office park in Oklahoma?
 
At FAA sponsored safety seminars over the past few years conducted by air traffic controllers they continually remind pilots that when ATC advises a pilot of a traffic alert replying that you have it on your "fish finder" or TIS or TCAS is a waste of your breath and radio time. Until you visually acquire the traffic they must continue to provide further alerts until traffic is no longer a factor.

That does not withstand a test of logic. If ADSB is to replace radar, ADSB will be the primary (only) location information to ATC. If pilots have it also, it cant be treated as invalid unless the verbal info from ATC can also be treated that way by pilots.

I don't argue that the FAA will enforce it per your comment but it is illogical.
 
So I've got to ask.... What is the reasons people are flying in anonymous mode? Doing that doesn't seem to help anybody, especially since you need at least one ADS-B Out equipped plane to light up the system (so that all of the others who haven't adopted yet can get the info on their iPads, etc). Since most are flying around VFR, its still see and avoid out there... even if ATC is equipped to view the ADS-B data.

Don
Velocity 164PS
 
So I've got to ask.... What is the reasons people are flying in anonymous mode? Doing that doesn't seem to help anybody, especially since you need at least one ADS-B Out equipped plane to light up the system (so that all of the others who haven't adopted yet can get the info on their iPads, etc). Since most are flying around VFR, its still see and avoid out there... even if ATC is equipped to view the ADS-B data.

Don
Velocity 164PS

While in Anonymous Mode the GDL82, and maybe every OUT system, continues to regularly broadcast OUT data that lights up the system. The Call Sign is changed to VFR, altitude and position are still broadcast by the plane, and the S code is changed to a random number.

In my understanding, by lighting up the system in Anonymous Mode you are still helping yourself and your "neighbors" by triggering the ground station responses, providing the traffic information.

You are correct, it's still see and avoid out there.

Carl
..
 
Thanks for the clarification Carl.

So the reason for doing this is a privacy or violation issue.

Come 2020, will it be required to broadcast your N number?

While in Anonymous Mode the GDL82, and maybe every OUT system, continues to regularly broadcast OUT data that lights up the system. The Call Sign is changed to VFR, altitude and position are still broadcast by the plane, and the S code is changed to a random number.

In my understanding, by lighting up the system in Anonymous Mode you are still helping yourself and your "neighbors" by triggering the ground station responses, providing the traffic information.

You are correct, it's still see and avoid out there.

Carl
..
 
My understanding

From what I read on AOPA, anonymous mode is allowed, even after 2020, unless you are on a flight plan or talking to ATC. I believe all UAT units have this mode.
 
From what I read on AOPA, anonymous mode is allowed, even after 2020, unless you are on a flight plan or talking to ATC. I believe all UAT units have this mode.

Anonymous mode is automatically turned off if you squawk anything other than 1200.
 
So I've got to ask.... What is the reasons people are flying in anonymous mode?

I've been flying with ADS-B in/out for about 3 years and it's great. But I was surprised the other day when flying near, but not in, PDX Class C airspace, squawking 1200 and monitoring approach, when I heard my N number "NXX are you on frequency?" I replied affirmative and the guy gave me a squawk and said I should be talking to them. I politely said "sure but I'm outside Class C" and he said in an irritated voice "It doesn't matter if you're in class C, I have all these airliners to deal with and I need to be talking to you" I meekly complied rather than cause a fuss on the radio but I found this pretty annoying. Perhaps if he'd worded it more like a request, but it was more like a command.

So clearly PDX approach has ADS-B, otherwise they wouldn't have known to call me. Anyway that has made me consider switching to anonymous mode.
 
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HOU APPCH and ADS-B confirmed

FYI - Today climbing out near the SWest approach path above me in Class B, I called HOU APPCH for Flight Following, initial contact with my N and ?VFR?. Approach replied with ?N#, you have traffic at ....?.

Clearly he was watching me, N#, altitude, and position, must have been my not-anonymous ADS-B out. Immediately switched me to the Hobby arrival controller?s freq.

Other?s have reported this coverage in other areas across the US, my first confirmation that it?s operating in Houston.

Carl
..
 
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