Absolute minimum tools require for working on empennage kit

Hey all...I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the absolute minimum required tools for starting and completing the empannage kit. I have searched and I did find one thread, but it really just pointed to the "bare bones" tool kits made up by the tool supply guys. Nothing against them, just don't have that kind of money to invest in tools right now.

Thanks in advance for your help

Kinda like saying what is the least sexy woman you would go out with.

It's tools man! You cannot have enough tools! You want the most, and the best tools you can get, not afford!

Seriously, don't skimp on tools. Buy the best and you can sell tthem when you are done and get most of your money back.

Too many tools? No way!

Larry thanks, and I agree wholeheartedly that you can never have enough tools. I wasn't asking about the cheapest tools. I have a Harbor Freight in town...if I wanted the cheapest, I already know where to go. I was simply asking what tools must I absolutely have to build and complete the tail kit of an RV of my choosing. Of course this limits me to a pre-punched kit, and I'm totally okay with that. I don't want to tackle the -3 until I've gotten my feet wet with a -7, or -8.

I got the Cleaveland beginner set and ended up having to buy even more tools to satisfactorily finish the emp kit. Mainly more sizes of drill bits, also a Vixen file, appropriate range torque wrench, and some other stuff. I do use a cordless electric drill versus the air drill, so that could have been omitted. The tail kit is small but you do use the same processes as the rest of the structure, so start collecting tools now.

milt1492 said:

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the absolute minimum required tools for starting and completing the empannage kit.

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Plan around $600 (Avery prices) plus source of compressed air. You probably already have high speed electric drill. All expendables ie sanding paper, files, clamps etc you can get from local hardware store. Have fun building the tail! The most memorable part in whole airplane.

As far as getting started goes, I can offer some insight here as I just started my empennage a week ago.

-#30, 40, 21, 19, 12 Drill bits (MUST)
-Drill (Air or otherwise)
-Deburring tool
-Sand Paper (good enough for deburring edges)
-Clamps
-Clecos (see vans recommendations)
-Cleco Pliers
-Protractor
-Vise
-File Set
-Sharpie fine point

That's had me going for a week now.

If you're just looking to get started, that's all you need. As far as finishing goes, that's another story. Once you start on the skins, you need riveting tools, air compressor, dimpler, dimple dies, rivet removing tools, etc...

If you are hesitant about spending money on tools now, and expect to end up with a flying airplane, you picked the wrong hobby!

Seriously, now that I'm deep into the finish kit and looking at buying avionics, engine, and prop, the initial shell out for the 4 kits and tools is peanuts. Get realistic about your cash flow and if $1000 extra now is too much for some tools you better rethink this tail kit. Trust me, if you enjoy building -- and the tail kit is fun to build, your addiction will be in full force.

Tools

Probably the best bet would be to save up enough to buy one of the many supplier's tool kits. There is a fair amount of savings when all of the tools are purchased together. I expect you will, more than likely, buy more tools after you get the initial tool kit because the kits don't carry everything.

Everything I have purchased for my RV-9 has been a cash-on-hand process. Nothing has been financed. I build while I'm saving. I've had two layoffs that stopped production and now my daughter has decided she should get married!!!

Robert M said:

.............. and now my daughter has decided she should get married!!!

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No problem! Just make sure the future son in law can buck rivets and likes to fly. If not tell your daughter to keep looking!

Echo Tango said:

As far as getting started goes, I can offer some insight here as I just started my empennage a week ago.

-#30, 40, 21, 19, 12 Drill bits (MUST)
-Drill (Air or otherwise)
-Deburring tool
-Sand Paper (good enough for deburring edges)
-Clamps
-Clecos (see vans recommendations)
-Cleco Pliers
-Protractor
-Vise
-File Set
-Sharpie fine point

That's had me going for a week now.

If you're just looking to get started, that's all you need. As far as finishing goes, that's another story. Once you start on the skins, you need riveting tools, air compressor, dimpler, dimple dies, rivet removing tools, etc...

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this is a good start.

and remember to have fun. poor man pays twice but at least we still get there.

Avery

I think the Avery bare bones tool kit set is the minimum. There is nothing in that kit that I didn't use a lot. Sometimes you can find people selling them when they're done with their airplane.

http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KIT-101

You may want to think about attending an EAA builder class. I know you are obviously trying to save money, and they are not cheap, but you will learn what each of the tools do and how important they are.

This aircraft, or any other type you may wish to build, will be a huge financial commitment. You do not need to buy the best tools, but you will need a lot of different ones and the costs builds up, no getting around it.

Geico266 said:

Kinda like saying what is the least sexy woman you would go out with.

It's tools man! You cannot have enough tools! You want the most, and the best tools you can get, not afford!

Seriously, don't skimp on tools. Buy the best and you can sell tthem when you are done and get most of your money back.

Click to expand...

Yep,
A builder kit plus a Bridgeport, Clausing, Wilton and Hobart ought to just about do it.

I hesitated to comment on this thread, because normally our customers are not those looking for the bottom dollar. We tend to sell to builders referred by other builders and to those who are replacing inferior tools after they tried to 'save money on tools'. However I wanted to offer some perspective that has not been mentioned yet. We put together the first "Empennage Tool Package" in our 1995 catalog because new builders didn't know what to get. This was before prepunched kits and the emp. kit took a while to complete. Now an experienced and motivated builder could complete the kit in a long weekend with the right tools. Because of this most builders start with the tools that they need to do most of the project. Most of the builders in the early to mid 80's built the planes without a c-frame. A few had a heavy and inaccurate flame cut version but many held the dimple dies by hand and learned how to keep them straight. The level of craftsmanship certainly was not what it was today, but it worked. Bob Avery fabricated the modern c-frame and carried it around at Oshkosh in the late 80's changing forever the quality of work that was commonplace. In the early 90's we introduced our springback dimple dies that further improved the quality of work that could be produced. We continue to try and find ways for builders to ease the work or improve the quality possible in the work, but the original craftsmen still created and flew the airplanes.
My original impulse was spot on with another that commented on this thread that essentially said 'if you can't afford the tools, you can't afford the airplane'. However after thinking about it further, a father of 4 on a shoestring budget can buy a tail kit (pretty economically) and the scrape by with the same tools available to these original craftsmen and spend priceless time with his family learning, growing, and spending time together. This process is exactly how I learned the skills that I have today. So I went through our tool list and narrowed it down to what it would take to do it old school. I know there are some drill bits to add, and now that I think of it a dozen 3/16" clekos, but here is a list that I came up with. Current builders with current tail kits please let me know if there are tweaks that need made to it.

Excel version
PDF Version


I tell customers all the time that there are craftsmen that can build a dresser with a hatchet, a hammer, and a hand plane. I am one that NEEDS the Delta Unisaw, Kreg Jig, Router, Planer... to do quality work. Looking back through old catalogs to find our first kit I found my Dad's quote "The quality of the finished product can be affected by the tools used. Good tools that are right for the job are a pleasure to use. We all have a box full of tools bought at "bargain" prices but later found to be inadequate for the job. Simply stated: (he quotes John Ranken) "It's unwise to pay too much... but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money... that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything, because the thing that you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." "

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clevtool said:

However after thinking about it further, a father of 4 on a shoestring budget can buy a tail kit (pretty economically) and the scrape by with the same tools available to these original craftsmen and spend priceless time with his family learning, growing, and spending time together. This process is exactly how I learned the skills that I have today. So I went through our tool list and narrowed it down to what it would take to do it old school.



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Mike, excellent point! I am not father of 4 but in 2005 I was on very tight budget. Martin Sutter was a volunteer with Avery booth at Osh and he was very patient answering my questions about mininum tools for emp list. I spent six hundred with them and built the tail. Later I bought some items from you after mine failed I still have them and will keep further. Excellent quality. Thanks for the list you compiled I wish I had it six years ago.

Minimum Tool

A Rock and a Ax are the bare minimun tools required, I have seen RVs that I am sure were assembled with these tools

thanks for the input

I just wanted to say thanks for the insight I have gained from those who have contributed. Especially Mike from Cleveland. I appreciate the time you spent to really answer the question I was asking. It looks like I'll be saving my money for one of the tool kits. I had hoped to get started a little sooner, but it looks like starting out with ALL of the right tools will be more economical. Besides, I still have to fly up to Van's and try some airplanes on for size.

The "Just to get started" list is pretty small

To begin the journey on a very tight budget you could go bare bones with a phased approach:

Phase 1
File set for deburring
Larger drill bits for deburring holes
#30, #40, #19 and 3/16 drill and 3/16 reamer for bolt holes
3/32 and 1/8 clecos and cleco pliers
Countersink with microstop and 3/32 and 1/8 bits
Hand held drill
Fluting pliers
Something to cut rudder and elevator stiffeners (hack saw, tin snips, ...)

This will get you to the cleco'd together stage of each component.

Phase 2
The next step is invest in dimple dies, c-frame, close quarter dimple dies with pop rivet puller.

That will get you to the "ready to prime" state if you are going to prime.

Phase 3
After that, you will need all the riveting equipment.

With a growing family and school there is plenty of work to be done just deburring, fluting, match drilling and test fitting components to allow you time to save for the rest of the tools.