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Fuel Hose (Make your own vs Buy)

G

Geeman

Well Known Member
I am about to need to make up a fuel line and was going to go to TS Flightlines or Bonaca, but a friend that has built a kitplane suggested I just make my own.

I have read many stories of damaged fuel lines causing engine loss or fire and wanted to get the best possible hose I could get.

I did some research on the aeroquip 601 hose and saw the video on EAA on how to make them up.

My question....if its that easy, why do people buy them made up?
 
Fear of the unknown, mostly. They feel better paying someone else to do it so that it's done "professionally", even if they could do it just as well themselves.
 
You will find quite a few threads on the subject. You can make your own. What you will find is that is very difficult to get the precision and quality of a professional hose assembly fabricator. I have made many many of my own hoses. Today, the cost of making your own is about the cost of buying it. So in the end, the cost is a wash. Making your own is fine. Having a professional do it IMHO is a no brainer given the risk reward of building your own. We are all experimental builders and we often want to do everything ourselves. And we do. Others want to let the professionals do it. Its all on your preference and what you want to do. The failures when builders do their own are in the accident database.

Tom at TS Flightlines is the man. His quality and service is top shelf. Lots of folks can make hoses sure. But he knows our business, he knows the right questions to ask you. He services many in the RV fleet, including our team. I can have anyone's hose in my plane I want, I choose his.
 
I didn't want my last response to come off as anti-professionally-made, so I thought I would clarify...

I stand by my statement that most people believe "professionally-made" is somehow superior to their own manufacture, even if they are identical. But Kahuna has a very valid point as well - you have to make quite a few hoses before you learn the tricks and start turning out really well-made hoses, and the pro guys already have that learning curve behind them. I've made hoses for high-pressure air work for years and I can attest first-hand to that learning curve.

I know that I can build a good hose for my oil and fuel lines. I also recognize that the cost of tools and materials is going to be VERY close to the cost of paying someone else to make them. I intend to order some hoses (today, in fact) from TS Flightlines because my time is short and the dollar values are very nearly a wash.
 
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Same issue

I bought everything to build my own fuel lines.
They are easy to build. This was useful in having to change
The lengths to accommodate a red cube, repositioned a few times.

However, after I priced out the cost of a 90 fitting for one of the
Fuel lines, it was cheaper and better to have TS Flighlines make up that particular line. I realized after all the cost. It was pretty close to a wash
And had TS do my oil lines as well.

In one way I am happy to have the equipment to build the hoses
But on the other hand I may never need to.

If you know your lengths have them made up. If you don't know
The lengths, have them made up and error on the long side. They can always
Be shortened.
 
Two advantages. You can rebuild the hose when it times out or gets damaged. You can make them to length as you go. You don't save much money, but you can save some of the time you spend planning/agonizing hoses.
 
Fred, Gil, and others.
As you know, mandrels are for use with 303 style hose. AE701 doesnt use mandrels for assembly, A) because it uses a cutter style stem, and B) because the stems have a wrench hex on them. The mandrels are for use with the straight hose ends anyway.
Teflon hose ends, even the reusables, dont require a mandrel. But---crimping or swageing the collars do require some specialized and sometimes expensive equipment. Swage bars are used with a press to push the fitting/collar assembly through a tapered hole of a specific size to meet the correct outside diameter specification. Generally, these bars are engineered for a specific manufactures hose ends. Since 'final" OD collar specs vary slightly between manufactures, the bars are not generally interchangeable.
Most of us use Hydraulic crimping presses with interchangeable dies to crimp the collars to the final specified OD. Faster, and with the new PLC versions, are EXTREMELY accurate. But, these machines are NOT cheap, and depending on the capacity, can cost as much as your Lycoming.

I know alot of you make your own hoses. Yep its part of the recreation and education thing. And for those that are repeat offenders, you probably have alot of extra hose ends lying around from previous projects. For those of you that are comfortable making your assemblies, by all means do so. For others, it may be something they are not comfortable with. ( I still have trouble riviting!) In the long run, we are all here to help.
Tom
 
I used to make fuel/hadraulic hoses for f-16s when I was a pneumatic/hydraulic technician in the Air Force. It's real easy as long as you have the fab equipment and a test stand to test them. Without either of those two things...I'll pay to have someone with that equipment make them for me. (with the exception of teflon braided hoses)
 
I made the hoses I needed to so I didn't have to wait and for convenience. I had them tested by a local hydraulics shop to the specification of the assembly, which is way more than needed, and it gave me peace of mind.
On my last project, complete fuel and oil hose replacement for the Bucker, I had them made patterned off of the old hoses. I would go that route again in a heart beat.
I could not justify the added cost of the teflon hoses however. The connectors where really pricey.
 
JonJay said:
I made the hoses I needed to so I didn't have to wait and for convenience. I had them tested by a local hydraulics shop to the specification of the assembly, which is way more than needed, and it gave me peace of mind.
On my last project, complete fuel and oil hose replacement for the Bucker, I had them made patterned off of the old hoses. I would go that route again in a heart beat.
I could not justify the added cost of the teflon hoses however. The connectors where really pricey.
Click to expand...

I found the teflon hose with the integral firesleeve an easy upgrade to justify.

Prices from last Oct.

As an example - a 24 inch, 3/8 fuel line hose with firesleeve. Straight end fittings.

Approx. prices from A/C Spruce
$17 - Hose - 24 inches
$21 - Firesleeve - 24 inches
$38 - Two fittings
$3 -- 2 end clamps

Totals $79 - and does not include $109 (... ...) for the fancy, certified end dip stuff. But most homebuilders either omit this step, or just smear red RTV here...
Also does not include a few bucks to the local shop for pressure testing, several hours saved (unless you have already done many), and the usual expense for band-aids, etc.....

Vans Hose bits and pieces prices - same as above but by Aeroquip -

Approx. prices from Vans (but are Aeroquip) - components only
$25 - Hose - 24 inches
$20 - Firesleeve - 24 inches
$50 - Two fittings
N/A -- 2 end clamps

Total - $95

Todays quote from PHT

24 inch certified Stratoflex 111 hose with firesleeve - $81.54

or a possible upgrade...

24 inch certified Teflon hose Stratoflex 124J hose with integral firesleeve - $108.54


$14 over Vans prices and $30 over Spruce's prices for just the component parts....
 
az_gila said:
I found the teflon hose with the integral firesleeve an easy upgrade to justify.

Todays quote from PHT

24 inch certified Stratoflex 111 hose with firesleeve - $81.54

or a possible upgrade...

24 inch certified Teflon hose Stratoflex 124J hose with integral firesleeve - $108.54[/I]
QUOTE]

I understand Gil.

It's roughy 25% increase in cost, however my mechanic who did this for me, I did not have the time, quoted me considerably higher. Not sure of his source.
No matter, my Bucker hoses where put on in 1996. I fully expect my new hoses to last that long. Yes, I know, they are supposed to have a 5 year life, not 16.

So, it isn't worth it for me for a machine I fly a couple dozen hours a year even at 25% more $.

I will however consider them when I get ready to change out my now 6 year old hoses on my RV but I am not in a big hurry to change them out.
Click to expand...
 
JonJay said:
az_gila said:
I found the teflon hose with the integral firesleeve an easy upgrade to justify.

Todays quote from PHT

24 inch certified Stratoflex 111 hose with firesleeve - $81.54

or a possible upgrade...

24 inch certified Teflon hose Stratoflex 124J hose with integral firesleeve - $108.54[/I]
QUOTE]

I understand Gil.

It's roughy 25% increase in cost, however my mechanic who did this for me, I did not have the time, quoted me considerably higher. Not sure of his source.
No matter, my Bucker hoses where put on in 1996. I fully expect my new hoses to last that long. Yes, I know, they are supposed to have a 5 year life, not 16.

So, it isn't worth it for me for a machine I fly a couple dozen hours a year even at 25% more $.

I will however consider them when I get ready to change out my now 6 year old hoses on my RV but I am not in a big hurry to change them out.
Click to expand...

True on the teflon with integral firehose.

BUT - the PHT prices for ready-assembled, certified hoses might even prove to be equal to, or cheaper, than buying the bits and pieces yourself.

It was in my my randomly chosen case with Vans prices...
Click to expand...
 
Groundhog day

Geeman said:
I am about to need to make up a fuel line and was going to go to TS Flightlines or Bonaca, but a friend that has built a kitplane suggested I just make my own.

My question....if its that easy, why do people buy them made up?
Click to expand...

Sometimes VansAirforce is like groundhog day because many builders do not understand the value of the archives. The last major thread on this topic was less than two months ago and contained all the information you need to make a decision. See here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=94213&highlight=hose+testing

Plenty of discussion there about the risks of doing it youself, including the problem of getting your home-made hoses properly hydraulically tested to the correct pressure. Nothing in this thread to date has added any new information.
 
Your right Bob, since the pre punch came along, the building questions have dropped to.... "I got out my micrometer and found they sent me -3 instead of -4 what should I do?"

Keep in mind that there are new people arriving on this site each day with their project scattered out all over their house and need a little help. If we send all of them to the search button, then there is nothing for us to read. We may as well shut out the light and go home.
 
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Groundhog Day

gasman said:
Your right Bob, since the pre punch came along, the building questions have dropped to.... "I got out my micrometer and found they sent me -3 instead of -4 what should I do?"

Keen in mind that there are new people arriving on this site each day with their project scattered out all over their house and need a little help. If we send all of them to the search button, then there is nothing for us to read. We may as well shut out the light and go home.
Click to expand...

Hi Warren, the point I wish to make is that newbies (and others) who dash out a request for information before checking the archives do themselves a total disservice.

Experienced and knowledgeable constructors are reluctant to keep on answering the same questions over and over again ad infinitum at short intervals. So they often don't. The end result is that builders who ask often-repeated questions generally get only very limited assistance.

As an example, 11 of the posters on the hose thread 7 weeks ago that covered the same topic did not comment on this thread. That includes some knowledgeable answers from some very experienced individuals including Sam Buchanan, Walt Aronow and Jay Pratt.

Not only that, but newbies may well wait days for a few responses to appear when they could have perhaps dozens of quality comments within 5 minutes by checking the archives. By going to the archives they get better quality answers, they get more of them, and they get them faster. Hard to see a downside. :D
 
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Captain Avgas said:
Hi Warren, the point I wish to make is that newbies (and others) who dash out a request for information before checking the archives do themselves a total disservice.

Experienced and knowledgeable constructors are reluctant to keep on answering the same questions over and over again ad infinitum at short intervals. So they often don't. The end result is that builders who ask often-repeated questions generally get only very limited assistance.

As an example, 11 of the posters on the hose thread 7 weeks ago that covered the same topic did not comment on this thread. That includes some knowledgeable answers from some very experienced individuals including Sam Buchanan, Walt Aronow and Jay Pratt.

Not only that, but newbies may well wait days for a few responses to appear when they could have perhaps dozens of quality comments within 5 minutes by checking the archives. By going to the archives they get better quality answers, they get more of them, and they get them faster. Hard to see a downside. :D
Click to expand...
Your points are well taken Bob. Some of us just have bad memories and like to hear ourselves talk! However, be careful with the archives. There is an equal amount of good information and misinformation. Also, things change. We gain new experiences. Specific to this thread, as Gil noted, pricing of Teflon stuff may be going down. Perhaps all would be better served adding those to old threads, but i am lazy.
Also, I consider this site to be as much social as a source of information. I like sparring (exchanging information) with Gil and others in a civil way. Gil and others teach me a lot. I would hate to see every post answered with "search the archives dummy":) Then I would just have to read the dumb answer or comment that I forgot I made.
I do search the archives before I start my own thread and they are a great resource.
 
Getting off-topic, I know, but perhaps a better suggestion isn't "search the archives" but "here's what search terms to use". When I was new, I had a number of silly questions that were answered with "it's in the archives if you search" and nothing more. Being a long-time forum user I was already aware of how to use a search box, and I did give it my best before I posted the questions. But when you're new and don't really know how to ask what you're looking for, you can easily get a couple of screens of results that don't mean anything and can be quite discouraging.
 
JonJay said:
Your points are well taken Bob. Some of us just have bad memories and like to hear ourselves talk! However, be careful with the archives. There is an equal amount of good information and misinformation. Also, things change. We gain new experiences. Specific to this thread, as Gil noted, pricing of Teflon stuff may be going down. Perhaps all would be better served adding those to old threads, but i am lazy.
Also, I consider this site to be as much social as a source of information. I like sparring (exchanging information) with Gil and others in a civil way. Gil and others teach me a lot. I would hate to see every post answered with "search the archives dummy":) Then I would just have to read the dumb answer or comment that I forgot I made.
I do search the archives before I start my own thread and they are a great resource.
Click to expand...

I agree with JonJay....

The point is that it is easy to give a link to a previous post that may have been missed in a possible archive search, but what do you do if sunbsequent posts clearly show that the link you provided was not followed and read?

I don't usually re-post my old posts, but in this case it did seem applicable to the discussion since it added actual facts (dollar amounts) that seemed to have been overlooked.
 
Purchased hoses

The route that I took was to use a local hydraulic hose shop here in Wichita. The fittings are the same 37 degree, they have teflon hose, they can fire-sleeve the hoses, the price is just a little more than if you order all of the individual parts from Summit or JEGS, and from the time I walk in the door to when I walk out with the completed hoses in hand is 30-45 minutes. They also have all of the fittings you would ever need with the only SMALL drawback is they are nickel plated steel. With the small number of fittings that I have on my plane, the steel fittings added a negligible amount of weight, which is offset by the huge savings over the aluminum anodized fittings.

I have made my own hoses, both in A&P school and for other projects, but I feel the guys working in the hydraulic hose shop do it for a living and for just a few extra bucks I let them do the assembly.

NOTE: You must never tell them that you are working on an airplane, I just say I'm working on a log splitter.
 
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JonJay said:
I do search the archives before I start my own thread and they are a great resource.
Click to expand...

Of course you do Jon. And so does everyone else who is "tuned in". ;) VansAirforce has been going for many years now...the archives are just absolutely bulging with information.

Like you, my first stop is always the archives. If I cannot get the answer there, I'll post a question....but that is rarely, because the archives are so powerful. The truth is that there are very few issues about building RVs that have not been raised previously and discussed in great detail. Not much is likely to be added to the primer wars. :D

I take the point about the social issue of having chit chat, but what I'm suggesting to newbies is that they can generally get more, and better, information from the archives than from posting a question. This is simply an issue of efficiency.

As for the reliability and quality of the comments in the archives....well the posts of today ARE the archives of tomorrow. In all cases on VansAirforce it's buyer beware. I constantly see people posting advice that is patently erroneous, and often downright dangerous. All the more reason to refer to the archives for a larger range of opinions and cross comments. :)

From my perspective the best outcome in this specific case would have been for the original poster to do a simple search with "Making Hoses". That would have brought up the thread "Hose Assembly Woes", a three page thread with 23 posts that ran recently from 17th December, 2012 to 20th December 2012.

That thread alone would probably have answered all his questions. But in the case that it did not, he could have appended any additional questions onto the end of that thread. That would have brought the old thread back into currency and invited further responses from others. That in turn would have strengthened the thread as a more valuable ongoing resource (archive searchers are always drawn to larger threads for obvious reasons).

I just don't think that a lot of people here on VansAirforce understand the importance of raising questions on old threads thus returning them to currency, whereupon they become larger and re-envigorated with new information (ie. they become large "definitive" threads).

Instead what they do is simply start a new thread and so the archives get filled with hundreds of piddling little threads on the same topic which dilutes the effectiveness of archive searches.
 
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