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Lithium batteries

S

sailvi767

Well Known Member
I know there have been several threads about using the various types of lithium batteries in RV's. Lithium scares the heck out of me in a aircraft or boat. I have watched quite a few videos of what happens when things go bad. I know there is a lot of different opinions on the subject but I feel the technology is just not there yet. What got me thinking about this was a email I received on the 787 fire a few days ago in Boston. The batteries in the 787 are the most tested Lithium batteries in the world and the first certified in a passenger airliner. Despite all that the APU starting battery overheated and caught fire on the ground. Firefighters had a hard time containing the fire. They then thought they had it out and 20 minutes later the battery exploded. I know there are lots of opinions on the subject but the weight savings just does not seem worth the risk at this point.

George
 
Well, I am no expert but this thread does detail quite a bit of knowledge about the various different types of Lithium polymer batteries:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=79483&highlight=LiFe+batteries

I understand your concern. But one might want to do some research before making a decision to develop a blanket "broad stroke" opinion about the issue of using any Lithium type batteries in an airplane. It might be of better benefit to all concerned to learn more about these type of batteries that may allow us to have a specific, instead of general, understanding based upon factual information.

The LiFe PO lithium batteries are much different than the Li Ion lithium batteries. As mentioned, I am no expert but I do know, generally speaking, there are very different characteristics of these two types of lithium batteries. It might be best to understand them before we go making blanket statements to the effect that all Lithium batteries are too dangerous for us to contemplate using.
 
As Steve said, saying Lithium is bad" is like saying "Airplanes crash". The LifePO chemistry has been very successful to date, and is gaining rapid acceptance - I have yet to hear of one with a thermal runaway. Lithium Polymer laptop batteries? Yeah...let's be careful with those....
 
Thought hard about it

Really thought about going to Shorai in the 7a to get those 15lbs off the nose, but in the long run for several reasons (mounting, cost, trust) finally decided to stick with the Oddessey 680.
 
Opinions=bad. Data=Good

Maybe an overstatement, but data IS good. I have to say it is hard to go wrong with a the lead acid, and not to challenge the selection, more investigation/data for our applications is good. Here is a site with a direct comparison. In my former work life we found that there is a lot more to Li X and NiMH batteries in terms of charge/discharge, cycles, AC content, etc than surfaces with battery data sheets. We spent $500k on building a test device, and gathered two years of data from it.

http://www.altenergymag.com/emagazi...m-ion-in-stationary-storage-applications/1884

There are more than a hundred formulations of LiO batteries. Marketing names them and most formulations are secret, so it is hard to draw general conclusions. A123 has about the best formulation and i have seen tests where a nail was driven through a fully charged cell and it did not have a thermal runaway. Another thing - LiO formulations don't like to remain fully charged & keeping them full charged takes more than a "dumb" system like typical LA (FLA/VRLA etc) formulations use. LiO thermal excursions are the result of poor voltage/amperage management.

The link above compares the performance and cost, at 10X more cost for same capacity it would seem $/lb reduction might be more economical elsewhere.
 
I don't consider my self "bleeding edge" but I did go with the LiFePO4 (Shoria) for my RV-8.

Everyone needs to decide for themselves.

I replaced my 15.4lb Odessey 680 with a 2.2 lb Shoria. Now I'm upgrading my panel and need a backup battery. My choice? Take the existing Shoria 18AH main battery and make it the backup and install a 27AH Shoria as my main battery. It weighs 4.4 lbs.

As for price, I just looked and see an Odyssey 680 for $120 and my Shorai's are $160 and $230 respectively.
 
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I?m at a point that I need to make battery decision. It looks like with the Shorai?s you can get more CCA than with the Aerovoltz. Anyone know of a reason that you can?t run 2 LifePo?s in series like you can an Odyssey?
 
The news reports are saying that the battery that caught fire on the 787 was "lithium-ion". Big difference when compared to LiFePo batteries in chemistry and fire safety.
 
rocketbob said:
The news reports are saying that the battery that caught fire on the 787 was "lithium-ion". Big difference when compared to LiFePo batteries in chemistry and fire safety.
Click to expand...

Bob,
Lithium Ion tends to be a generic term used to cover all the various technologies. The major medial news reporters have even less expertise about battery technology than they do about GA aircraft. The poster below is directly connected to the certification of Lithium battery technology in aircraft. According to

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=671563&postcount=16

only the LiFePo technology [same as the AeroVoltz and Ballistic] have been approved. I point this out, so that others do not get confused.

Thanks Steve [RVbySDI] for supplying the link in your post above. A lot of good info there.

Charlie
 
Anyone have experience with these in extreme cold temps? Here in North Dakota we can see -30s F for a few weeks a year. I'd like to be able to utilize the lighter battery....but looks like -20 is the specified limit.
 
Here in North Dakota we can see -30s F for a few weeks a year. I'd like to be able to utilize the lighter battery....but looks like -20 is the specified limit.
Click to expand...
Somewhere (on here?) said yes - it can be an issue. Solution - turn landing light on for a period of time, the current draw warms the Li battery. No idea if any validity?
 
from the thread following the AVWEB article:

Mike, both lithium polymer and lithium iron-nanophosphate are lithium-ion technologies. They still have lithium salt electrolytes made of flammable organic solvents.

And they're still sensitive to charging imbalances. even though they are considered to be more stable chemistries. As I noted, the Citation that burned had LiFEPO4 technology

I'd research that Citation incident...
 
Firing up the landing light to warm up the battery may help when you encounter those temps at altitude....but my hangar will be that temp too...:eek: Unless I hear of some other polar users out there I'll probably have to stick with the Odyssey.
 
Bob, the battery issue/fire on the ground may have been at Boston. Reportedly it was part of a system that only was used on the ground.

Within a week or so there was an in-flight battery issue and reported smoke in the cabin on a Japanese 787. That led to grounding of the Japanese 787s and within a day or so all 787s were grounded.

Research Boeing 787 grounding for more details.
 
Lithium Batterys

I have had plenty of experience with Lithium Batteries in my job
One a high load in cold temps drain the battery in seconds unless the battery is warm.
Second if the battery is breached, any water including high humidity
can set up a runaway chemical eaction, and direct water in contact with the lithium ribbons will cause an immediate (FIRE) and a burnt out aircraft
The reason that most highend flash lights use O-rings to keep the
flashlight sealed against moisture
Ill use my oddesy

Tailwinds Ken
Flying RV6
 
On a smaller scale, this video is from my senior proj. last year. One of our LiPo batteries caught fire when the battery was installed a little too far to one side, and a wing mounting screw punctured it, and that was the end of that plane:mad: Luckily we had 5 other planes ready to go.
The battery fire is at the 2:29 min mark. I'm the one getting interviewed (not much of a camera/people person:eek:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3YwlKBqMGw
 
Securaplane, the battery charger manufacture is based here in Oro Valley.

I spoke to the Fire Marshall today (still trying to get our airpark hangar fire codes sorted out) and he said he's getting lots of calls about this 2006 incident that burned down the companys 3 storey building...

I had forgotten about this....:)

Securaplane fire cause unknown

By Brian P. Nanos, [email protected]

November 15, 2006 - One week after Oro Valley-based Securaplane Technologies lost its administrative building in a three-alarm fire, investigators are months away from zeroing in on the fire's cause.

Despite the loss of a building he values at $2 million, Securaplane's President Dave Daniels claims the company is in a good position to rebuild.

A fire the morning of Nov. 7 destroyed the company's property at 10800 N. Mavinee Drive and disrupted the company's administration, sales and marketing, products support and research and development offices. The company's 138 employees also temporarily lost use of their landline phone and Internet systems.

According to Daniels, each of those offices either has little effect on the company's current business obligations or is easily transferable. Employees with offices in the burnt building are now all working in the company's other building located just across North Mavinee Drive.

Daniels said the fire had little affect on the company's ability to make its upcoming product shipments on time.

One week after the fire, investigators had yet to determine its cause. This week, inspectors representing the company's insurer, the town of Oro Valley and Golder Ranch Fire District were at the scene attempting to discover the fire's cause.

"It's not a quick issue," Golder Ranch fire inspector Steve Hobarenko said after the first day of inspections. "It's something that's going to play out over a number of months."

Witnesses told firefighters that the fire started in the area the company stores batteries. Early investigation on the scene confirmed the fire's location, but the cause will not be determined until all possibilities are ruled out, Hobarenko said.

John Sullivan, community services division chief of the Golder Ranch Fire District, said investigation into the cause of the fire is focusing on the possibilities that it was caused by a defective battery, defective battery charging equipment or worker error.


I think the final report blamed an improper test set-up, but the fire was largen enough to destroy the building.
 
Glenn, I am curious to hear how the little 2.2 lb. Shorai compared to your PC680 when starting your airplane. Also, when you can please let us know how the 4.4 lb. Shorai works compared to the others as well. Thanks, Tony
 
Tony etal,

Starting at post #25 of this thread, you can read about some testing done with the 18Ah Shorai. For my personal experience, you can read my series of progressing results starting at post #47 of the same thread.
 
Super-B

Check this out: http://www.super-b.com/en/
I installed two of them in my Rv 7
They are very well known in Italy and many Lsa have been running on those with no issues since 5 years. Little bit expensive but quite affordable.
ridsoc-764_zpse96d913d.jpg
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