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James plenum question

Charles in SC

Well Known Member
I am installing mine now. My question is does the plenum need to be secured to the engine case in the front center and rear? The plans do not show it being done. In flight if pressure balloons the plenum up, does it go up enough to matter?
Thanks in advance!
 
If I understand your question, no it does not. The only place anything secures the cowling is the firewall. You will be surprised how solid it feels once all fastened.

Sorry - I was reading plenum and thinking cowl. My plenum is only fastened to the baffling. I have some pictures. If you want, send me an email and I can send them. Have fun.

Here is one of my plenum as it gets ready for paint
[URL=http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/rockwoodrv9a/media/rv9a/plenum_zpsajjpqekc.jpg.html][/URL]
 
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Plenum

No plenum is only fastened to baffling on 3 sides. Mine has front aluminum rings that provide some support against cowling but screws around circumference is what holds it
 
Set the plenum up as high as you can. That will allow the air to slow down before going out through the cooling fins.

The front doesn't fit well, so I cut it off, lathered up the nose with Vaseline and laid new fiberglass right on the engine and glassed the plenum to the nose. I then cleaned up the fiberglass.

This is much better than using half a tube of RTV to seal the nose of it.
 
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Thanks, it seemed to be pretty strong and I did not think it was needed but when you do a search and read some of the archives some posters seemed to be convinced that it would lift enough to leak to much air.
 
Lurking in the background here also, about to start fitting my plenum next weekend or so. I know I've read the plenum can be a hack-job. But glad to hear it's usually in the front. I was starting to wonder how many had to seriously carve out the "front nose bridge" between the two air inlets. Mine, at just laying it on top of the engine, seemed like I'd have to carve it out quite a bit to get past a case bolt in front of #1, and past the prop governor oil outlet plug in front of #2.

Just curious, for baffle trimming and initial fit purposes, how high up off the engine do you all have your plenums?
 
Scott, I put mine in about as high as I could. I had to cut and re-shape a bit to get it low enough to clear the cowl in front right above the cylinder. Right now I have about 3/4" from the cowl at the front two corners.
 
This is much better than using half a tube of RTV to seal the nose of it.

The SJ plenum fit to my IO-320 was pretty good ... much better than what I see for the guys with O-360s. I sealed the front center to the engine case with some higher-temp red weatherstripping (silicone) from McMaster-Carr. Worked very well and still seals tight after 4 yrs. :)
 
I love having the plenum versus the baffles on my plane - but if I ever build again I'll just do the plenum from scratch. I had to do so much cut/reglass work on the James plenum that it was not the effort in my case. My experience may be atypical, but I had to hack both rear corners and the entire front. The only part that was unmolested was the top and most of the sides. As Terry says above, the 320 seems to work better than the 360, I have the 360.
 
Here is a picture of the plenum in place. I need to add nut plates, prime, and paint - then it is DONE! Finally!!

plenum1_zpsmm8lxvj3.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
I am installing mine now. My question is does the plenum need to be secured to the engine case in the front center and rear? The plans do not show it being done. In flight if pressure balloons the plenum up, does it go up enough to matter?

With fasteners on the side and the rear baffle walls, the issue is the "bridge" across the front, between the inlets. I've seen some of these with a bead of silicone sealant across there, and if the silicone actually glued the plenum to the engine, it would be pretty solid. But it can't be glued if you expect to remove the plenum for maintenance.

So, does it lift? I suspect it lifts and leaks at cruise speeds (highest pressure condition) but may or may not in slow climb.

Easy enough to run a little experiment in the shop. Knock together a three-sided plywood box the same size as the baffle walls, and fasten the plenum lid into it, upside down. Now evenly load the lid with some sandbags and measure deflection at the unsupported bridge.

How many pounds of sand? Multiply the square footage of the lid times the values below, which are available dynamic pressure in psf x 0.8, at 2000 MSL, standard day.

airspeed psf

100 KTAS 26

125 KTAS 40

150 KTAS 58

175 KTAS 78

200 KTAS 102

Does leakage matter? Heck, if you think not, throw away the plenum lid. You're a flap seal guy ;)
 
I have also just started fitting a James plenum on my RV4 Fastback. The one problem I have is that I have a front prop governor. Do I put it on the inside or the outside of the plenum? I have found pictures on the internet of both. Does it matter?
Whichever way it does mean I have to do some remodeling at the front of the plenum.

Steve H
Flying RV7
Building RV4 Fastback
 
Thanks for the input. After getting the plenum secured in place I am amazed how sturdy it is and I cannot see it lifting.

The lid is roughly 16" x 30", thus area is 480 sq in, or 3.33 sq ft. Let's just call it 3 in case I'm over-estimating the dimensions. I have pressure measurements made on 5 or 6 different aircraft; 14" H2O is a reasonable average for a good installation flying 165 KTAS at 3500 ft. That would be 73 lbs per sq ft, thus the load on the lid would be 219 lbs.

Ok, so it's supported on three sides, with an unsupported span of 30" on the fourth side. Load the lid with 219 lbs, and you think the unsupported span doesn't bend?

The load is still higher at VNE.

Here is a picture of the plenum in place. I need to add nut plates, prime, and paint - then it is DONE! Finally!!

plenum1_zpsmm8lxvj3.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

For those who might be unfamiliar, Rockwood's plenum lid, as seen above, is from Bill Lane, a good engineer. It's a cored layup, probably stiffer than any plain layup. Note the aluminum plate across the front, intended to tie the center span of the lid to the crankcase. Rockwood, that gets, what, five or six #8 screws in shear?

See the curved flange with nutplates in the photo below? It started breaking up not long after 100 hours, which should also tell us something about the forces lifting the lid. Subsequent mods changed to screws in shear across the front, and reinforced the attach points on the #1 and #2 cylinder heads.

P3170005.JPG


Shop photo; subsequent mods changed to screws in shear across the front; here you can see the holes in a new down-turned lip. Outboard, the lid now attaches directly to the 1/4-20 screw points on the #1 and #2 cylinder heads (not yet drilled in this photo). The flange is sandwiched under a clamp plate at the 1/4-20s.

New%20Lid.jpg


Mounted:

Plenum%20800w.jpg


Attach at heads:

Plenum%20Lid%20Attach.jpg
 
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I have also just started fitting a James plenum on my RV4 Fastback. The one problem I have is that I have a front prop governor. Do I put it on the inside or the outside of the plenum?

Some data suggests pressure loss due to the governor body protruding into the intake flow, but as a practical matter, it might be hard to create a duct shape that clears the governor and doesn't cause flow separation anyway.

Darned if you do and darned if you don't. Most everyone elects to put it in the airflow.

If you do stick it through the duct wall, it is possible to create a tight rubber seal.

P3070001.JPG


P3170007.JPG
 
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Note down below the governor, the baffles attach to the case with two bolts fore and aft of that big hex case nut. I think they are 1/2-20 threads. The aft boss position also exists on the opposite side of the case. Those are prime locations to handle the upward pressure forces and an anchor could be used for the James design if desired/needed.

Dan, you are spot on, that core is about 8-10X stiffer, but still not enough to keep deflection under control without help across the front. The core also keeps the cover from ballooning and touching the cowl, but the "anchors" are still needed across the front.

Rockwoods mod to join the inlets and cover makes a slick looking end product, but will be a little more difficult to remove for plug service. It is going to look fantastic in paint, nice work Rocky!
 
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My SJ plenum is not attached in the front middle but each side has a screw inside the cooling duct and on the inboard side of each duct.

w2jiG4Jh.jpg

3IL8Sarh.jpg
 
My SJ plenum is not attached in the front middle but each side has a screw inside the cooling duct and on the inboard side of each duct.


3IL8Sarh.jpg

Ray, are you cutting that orange silicone sealant to free the plenum for upper engine service, then resealing? Or is the lid somehow just in contact with the sealant?
 
Ray, are you cutting that orange silicone sealant to free the plenum for upper engine service, then resealing? Or is the lid somehow just in contact with the sealant?

I installed with vaseline to avoid sticking and though I may not have applied 200+ lbs of pressure, I was not able to open the gap using all the force I could muster on the inside of the plenum.

I do have an issue with oil temps being too cool at around 175 with the cooler mounted behind the #4 cylinder. I made a plate for the back side that is adjustable to block of the lower part of the cooler, which has brought it up the low 180 range during a 1 hour flight last week.
 
I installed with vaseline to avoid sticking and though I may not have applied 200+ lbs of pressure, I was not able to open the gap using all the force I could muster on the inside of the plenum.

Don't feel bad. Very few can curl 220 lbs one-handed.
 
Dan,
I really have no idea on how the whole plenum - cooling system works. It is hard for me to understand how small leaks would make that much of a difference. I am SO glad Bill made the plenum for me because he does know what is needed.

I looked at the 172 I am taking lessons in today and the baffles - seals are no where near as tight as I have even without silicone sealant in all the cracks. I guess there is quite a bit more air under the cowl in the 172 so Im sure that helps with the cooling.

Bill had a great pattern for the metal bridge across the front and the sides of the glass inlets go past the aluminum baffles. I had to cut and fit the inlet pieces to make a good corner at the bottom but it is very tight now.

plenum5_zpslolduv9u.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

plenum6_zpsf2fhhk94.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

I am still figuring out how to fasten it all down now. My plan is to use nut plates on the inside of the glass and screw through the baffle. I expect to use about 10-12 screws to go around the entire plenum. On the front, I am still deciding how to make that work the best. As it is now, I will not be able to silicone the front baffle to the engine. I am not sure what penalty that will cost me. If it is a bit of speed, Im ok with that. It gets hot here in the summer so I hope I can keep things cool enough.
 
Dan,
I really have no idea on how the whole plenum - cooling system works. It is hard for me to understand how small leaks would make that much of a difference.

Here's a results-based tutorial. The three graphs plot actual measured performance from an earlier version of my own cooling experiments, and an early version of an ongoing effort by another builder. Note I have redacted the owner's name. For the record, any such data that comes my way is always made anonymous unless previously agreed otherwise.

Comparison.jpg


On the left we have upper and lower static pressure. Your goal here is to design for the maximum conversion of available dynamic pressure (a function of airspeed and density) to static pressure in the upper cowl volume. Maximizing upper deck pressure improves everything about the system. In a previous post I suggested 0.8 as a reasonable conversion, but you can do better.

Lower cowl pressure is mostly a function of outlet area. Big outlet = low pressure, small outlet = high pressure.

The middle chart is DeltaP, the pressure difference between the upper and lower cowl volumes. This is what drives air through the fins...or through the leaks, a path that picks up no heat. Although the pressure is small in familiar terms (the charted max of 8.5" H2O = 0.3 psi), it typically pushes two to four pounds of air through the fins and leaks per second.

Look back at the first chart. The blue cowl had higher upper deck pressure, so the exit was made smaller, and thus lower cowl pressure is also higher. Now back to chart two; the result is essentially the same DeltaP for both cowls. That means both cowls flow air at the same rate. However, greater lower cowl pressure means the blue cowl will exhibit higher exit velocity. Cooling drag is mass x loss of momentum. Both cowls are flowing the same mass, but the blue cowl has less loss of momentum, so (all other things being equal) it will be a faster airplane.

Let us consider leakage, either through badly fitting baffle wraps, or a badly fitted or fastened plenum, or past good 'ole flap seals. Titan's Bobby Looper once told us dyno studies showed one square inch of leakage area results in a one inch H2O loss of DeltaP. Less DeltaP means less mass flows through the fins. The hit is two-fold. Less mass though the fins means less cooling, plus mass flowing through the leaks and on through the cowl without picking up heat contributes only drag...remember "mass x loss of momentum = drag"? Given the same total mass flow, an airplane with leaky baffling is slower and runs warmer.

Look at the chart on the right. It plots what my mentor called epsilon, a measure of of heat transfer efficiency, or put another way, a yardstick for how much heat the air is picking up as it passes through the cooling system. One way to reduce total mass flow (thus drag) is to allow less air through the system, but make it work harder, i.e. pick up more heat. Within practical limits, we want the exit air to be as hot as possible. The equation here is

efficiency = (OAT - exit temp) / (average CHT - OAT)

The above is far more valid for a heat exchanger like your oil cooler, and much less so for our air cooled cylinder system, because our lower cowls also include many feet of hot exhaust pipe, and that drives exit temperature upward. It's ok. It just means we can't use epsilon for advanced calculations. However, we can use it as a comparison yardstick between non-turbo RVs, as we all have roughly the same amount of exhaust pipe in our cowls.

So how is epsilon improved? More cylinder head fins with optimized spacing is one way; it's why angle valve engines generally run with lower CHT compared to parallel valve engines. The key things within our power as builders are (a) no leakage, and (b) better cylinder and head wrapping, i.e. maintain turbulent air contact with hot engine metal as long as possible.

High pressure, no leaks, high heat transfer, minimum mass, highest possible exit velocity...these are your goals if you want best cooling and maximum efficiency. Efficiency translates into highest speed, or lowest fuel consumption, as you choose.

I looked at the 172 I am taking lessons in today and the baffles - seals are no where near as tight as I have even without silicone sealant in all the cracks. I guess there is quite a bit more air under the cowl in the 172 so Im sure that helps with the cooling.

Quite a bit more air flowing through the cowl. Plain truth is cooling alone is easy, even with really crappy sealing. Yeah, I know quite a few struggle with it, but in reality (assuming properly set timing and mixture) all you gotta do is continue opening the exit until CHTs get low enough. I've done that experiment too. Epsilon will be very low, i.e. exit air will be not be a lot hotter than OAT. The huge mass flow and low exit velocity will make the airplane slow. Sound like a 172?

I am still figuring out how to fasten it all down now. My plan is to use nut plates on the inside of the glass and screw through the baffle. I expect to use about 10-12 screws to go around the entire plenum.

We've all looked out the windshield and seen how a Vans cowl will bulge outward across the top of the firewall/cowl seam, in particular when the cowl is held with individual fasteners rather than hinge. Well, DeltaP across your plenum lid is usually higher than the DeltaP between lower cowl pressure and freestream pressure. So what makes you think you can use widely spaced plenum lid fasteners and expect it not to leak?

On the front, I am still deciding how to make that work the best. As it is now, I will not be able to silicone the front baffle to the engine.

Build the interface between lid and baffle tin so the fit is tight without sealant. No insult intended to anyone, but gaps are just builder laziness. It's fiberglass, easy to modify.

I am not sure what penalty that will cost me. If it is a bit of speed, Im ok with that. It gets hot here in the summer so I hope I can keep things cool enough.

Leakage penalty? Just make the exit larger. Of course, it seems a bit lunatic to accept the installation and maintenance penalty of dealing with a plenum, and not getting full benefit. As I said before, if you don't care about leakage, skip the plenum lid; you're a flap seal guy.
 
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Wow, Dan, thanks for the info. I learned more in your post than all I knew before!

I am very confident that as the plenum is built now, there will be no leaks between it and the baffles - as long as I use enough fasteners. There is no reason to not add a few more since removing a few more will not take any longer. It is very stiff because of the 90 degree bend so it is much less likely to bulge because of that bend then the floppy edge of the cowling.

The only area I have concern with is the front metal to engine seal. I never considered doing that portion out of glass. My first thought is it will make it difficult to put on and take off. The aluminum pattern Bill sent with the plenum fits so well the only leakage would be pressure blow by between the engine and baffle near the propeller.

I will look at that area and see if it can be done with glass. Maybe a combo of the aluminum and glass. I went to the trouble to do the plenum, I might as well get the full advantage of that work.

Thanks Dan.
 
Plenum to Baffle Screws

The number of screws in the perimeter is based on the stiffness of the .032, not really the cover. I did some testing of screw spacing and settled on about 2-3 inches for #6 screws. That will be a lot more than 10-12. The seal is to be RTV, applied to the perimeter, wax or tape the baffles, install and remove. This will Make a perfect seal with the baffles, and not require cutting for removal.

Yes it is a lot of screws, but with a power tool, it does not take long to remove it. Practice helps.
 
Yes on the RTV seal as BillL described!!
I taped/waxed my baffles and spread some ultra black RTV onto my sanded and cleaned plenum, installed the plenum with very light pressures on the screws so the RTV just started squishing But do not squeeze out all the RTV. It makes a nice rubber seal that is stuck to the plenum.
I used some #8 NAS1802-8/32 Phillips hex head screws to hold my plenum to the baffling so I can use a screwdriver/socket/wrench to remove/install. I'm not there to measure but I would guess I used approx 3 inch spacing between screws and the only leaks I found were at the metal baffling overlap between cylinders, I've since smeared a little more RTV in that spot. I can have the plenum off in 15 min, Pics and more starting here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=94648&page=47
 
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Here's a results-based tutorial.

...

As I said before, if you don't care about leakage, skip the plenum lid; you're a flap seal guy.

Thanks Dan for the great writeup ... I always learn something from every one of your posts.

[Becoming less of a flap-seal guy]
 
Our plenum...

Thanks for the information guys. This a big help to us new folks like myself.
My partner had bought the James plenum but elected to build from scratch. We have had excellent cooling with CHTs about 320. Oil temps have been a bit low at 175 max but they may increase with warmer weather. First flight was Inauguration Day and currently have about 49 hours on the O360.
I'm struggling with images so I hope this works...
https://goo.gl/photos/N4Q829Yq7VN9TLn59
 
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