What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Lycoming IO-360 making metal. Options?

jetdriven

Well Known Member
Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A3B6D
TTSN: 3,590
TSMOH: 1,325 (new cylinders, new cam, rebuilt lifters, 2001)

At the last oil change we found approximately 1/4 teaspoon full of ferrous metal in the oil filter. Iron in the oil analysis is elevated, at 90 PPM (average was 30).

We are taking it in for a detailed inspection tomorrow to include a borescope and maybe pull off a couple cylinders for inspection of the cam and lifters. At this time, the major possibility is the camshaft or lifters have failed and engine replacement is neccesary.

I have 3 major options, maybe 4.

Lycoming factory overhaul engines have the new roller camshaft. There is a zero chargeback policy on the core engine provided it is not disassembled or damaged.

IO-390 is same price, but needs a new Hartzell "BA" prop, another ten grand, and about 4K in other costs.

Zephyr engine overhaul is 23K. This is reused cylinders and a new cam and lifters. The major risk here is the case or crank will not pass recertification. Per Aircraft Specialties Services, a replacement serviceable crankshaft for an -A3B6D is 8-10K, and a new one is 14K. they can only be turned to .009 undersize, and it was last machined to .003. A replacement crankcase is ~4K. I would be liable for both.

We will know more on Monday, but it looks like an engine replacement. Must have been all that LOP, climbing at 2,700 RPM, and air racing. Wouldnt that be something, 188 MPH on a bad camshaft at gross weight. I should have known better than to cheat the system :)

All input welcome.
 
Engine

Just a wild guess at this point, but with the rebuilt lifters, I would guess a spalled cam and lifters. Pull a couple of cylinders and have a look at the cam for spalled lobes and lifters, then look at the piston skirts for embedded ferrous metal.
 
If it were me, knowing the cost of angle valve cylinders and the fact that this engine is mid-time, I would pull a cylinder and look around. If the cam or lifters are spalled think about having a good A&P split the case and replace the cam and recondition the lifters and put it all back together. I can generally wiggle the rods to determine what kind of shape the rod bearings are in.
 
Rocketbob,
I read most of your posts and wish I knew about engines like you do. But the best part is your picture. Im not sure why, but that picture just cracks me up!
 
Rocketbob,
I read most of your posts and wish I knew about engines like you do. But the best part is your picture. Im not sure why, but that picture just cracks me up!

I found it funny too when I first saw it, but it also speaks of deep irony...:)
 
I found it funny too when I first saw it, but it also speaks of deep irony...:)
Figure out how to add sarcasm and it would work for me!

Back on topic, I am interested in what you find out about the metal in the engine. At 1300 hours, it is a big deal. Thanks.
 
3 spalled lifters, ruined camshaft. Crank and case look OK. Our shop doesnt want to split the case and install a new cam :(. So looks like my options are new limits new cylinder overhaul:
Custom Airmotive: $23,800
Zephyr: $ 26,400
Lycoming OH (roller cam) $ 29,150

Anyone care to comment on these shops?
 
Jetdriven, yoou and Mannanj sure called that one. Quite a large repair bill for 1300 hours. That is getting close to the new-rebuilt question. Good luck with the repairs and hope you get back in the air soon.
 
3 spalled lifters, ruined camshaft. Crank and case look OK. Our shop doesnt want to split the case and install a new cam :(. So looks like my options are new limits new cylinder overhaul:
Custom Airmotive: $23,800
Zephyr: $ 26,400
Lycoming OH (roller cam) $ 29,150

Anyone care to comment on these shops?

Jetdriven,

Just out of curiosity, I see it was rebuilt in 2001, I'm wondering if it sat idle for a period of time and may have had rust build up on the cam or lifters.
 
IO-360 making metal

For that kind of money I might give Mike Busch a call. Not sure a complete overhaul is warrented. Might cost you a little for a cousult but probably save some money in the long run.
http://www.savvyaviator.com/

Brian

3 spalled lifters, ruined camshaft. Crank and case look OK. Our shop doesnt want to split the case and install a new cam :(. So looks like my options are new limits new cylinder overhaul:
Custom Airmotive: $23,800
Zephyr: $ 26,400
Lycoming OH (roller cam) $ 29,150

Anyone care to comment on these shops?
 
Spalling

Jetdriven,

Just out of curiosity, I see it was rebuilt in 2001, I'm wondering if it sat idle for a period of time and may have had rust build up on the cam or lifters.

Jerry:

That happens quite frequently. That is what happened to the one I got and rebuilt.

In the original post, he stated that the lifters had been reconditioned. That usually means that the faces were ground flat which removes some or most of the hardened nitrided surface. If they weren't re-nitrided, it wouldn't take long to wear through to the softer steel underneath, hence the spalling after several starts with no oily film to lubricate them immediately.

I have no evidence that this is what happened, it just makes sense in my pea sized brain.:)
 
just curious as to what the zero chargeback policy means..

"Lycoming factory overhaul engines have the new roller camshaft. There is a zero chargeback policy on the core engine provided it is not disassembled or damaged."
 
Split

Find someone who can. I could put the engine back together in an afternoon. A Lycoming is about as high tech as a four-stroke weedeater.

Bob is right, as usual. Even if you had the cyls overhauled, you could replace the cam and lifters, put in new bearings etc for about $7,000. Just follow the manual, have an A&P check you as you go and you should be good for another 1500 hrs. at least. "It ain't rocket science".
 
Jerry:

That happens quite frequently. That is what happened to the one I got and rebuilt.

In the original post, he stated that the lifters had been reconditioned. That usually means that the faces were ground flat which removes some or most of the hardened nitrided surface. If they weren't re-nitrided, it wouldn't take long to wear through to the softer steel underneath, hence the spalling after several starts with no oily film to lubricate them immediately.

I have no evidence that this is what happened, it just makes sense in my pea sized brain.:)

(Reply from the wife, Becca).

We have flown the plane 250 hrs since we purchased it in Jan 2011 and its never sat for much over a week. It did sit somewhat, but not totally idle, in the couple years before we purchased. As part of the pre-buy, we did pull a cylinder to inspect the cam.

102 hours in 2006
61 hours in 2007
40 hours in 2008
16 hours in 2009.
15 hours in 2010 (includes 5 hour ferry to broker)
211 hours in 2011
20 hours Feb-Jun 2012. (This is about when we got our first elevated iron in the oil sample)

How do y'all feel about roller tappets on the new Lycomings? To us, that seems like the biggest selling point for going with a factory overhaul vs. doing it at some place like Zephyr. That and insuring ourselves against the risk that we need a new crank or case (which would come with the factory but cost us extra elsewhere), though this seems unlikely.

As for Saavy, we have an arrangement at a shop where we do a lot of the work ourselves, which has been pretty beneficial to us so far, but they won't touch this problem. I don't think Saavy will be able to solve our problem. Though we are big fans and read a lot of what Mike Busch has to say - we were hoping we'd be able to run our engine past overhaul, but if wishes were unicorns..
 
Back
Top