Question About Flight Following in the Los Angeles Basin

I may be flying down to the LA area from Northern California on Monday. I've only flown down there 2 or 3 times in a GA airplane.

I recall on one occasion, after taking off from Fullerton, I contacted ATC and asked for flight following to KRHV, my home airport over 3 hours away (via Aeronca). I remember the controller telling me that he couldn't give me FF for that entire route and asked if there was another destination I wanted. I was puzzled so we played a bit of a guessing game. He asked if there was a point north of the LA basin that I'd like to go to. I guessed the Gorman VOR which was along my intended route of flight. Bingo! He cleared me to Gorman and once I got there, I was dropped.

My guess is that the SoCal controllers are so busy that they'll be happy to get you out of the area and after that, you're on your own.

Questions:

-When leaving, should I even bother giving them my entire route back to Northern California or should I just pick a point that is just outside the LA basin as my destination?

-If I do elect to just give them a truncated route, I would imagine that once dropped, I ought to wait until I'm in another sector to reestablish the rest of my FF route. For instance, I'm planning to fly up the coast a bit. If I tell them that Malibu is my destination for FF, should I wait until I'm near Pt. Magu before I call back up (on a different frequency)? The reason for this is to avoid calling up the same controller that just dropped me.

Thanks.

My experience is that they want only your destination, and not the entire route. And since they won't know the 3- or 4- letter/number code for a far-away destination, you should have that handy. (i.e.: KRHV) "Kilo Romeo Hotel Victor"

They need your plane N-number, your planned altitude, and your destination. After that, you just answer their questions.

If you get "dropped", i.e.: "Radar service terminated, squawk VFR" (or 1200), then acknowledge, comply, and in the same transmission, ask for a frequency for the next sector. Almost always you will be given a new frequency, and you can start all over with the flight following.

For the most part, however, you will be "handed over" to the next controller, i.e.: "Contact NORCAL approach on one, two, three, point four five" In that case you need only check in on the new frequency with your N-number and altitude. I usually add the word "VFR" as well, but not necessary.

Hope this helps.

ArVeeNiner said:

He cleared me to Gorman

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Unless you asked to go thru the class B airspace he shouldn't have "cleared" you anywhere. When asking for FF ATC likes to have a general idea of where you are going. So you could offer up something like "north to El Monte, west thru the Gorman area, destination Romeo hotel victor in the bay area". If he wants to drop you ask for a handoff. He might do it, he might offer up a frequency for you to try, or he might say "unable". Flight following is on a work load permitting basis, so you can be dropped. Carry an ifr enroute chart, and look for the ATC frequency for your sector. Or if you have a 430 or similar, use the 'nearest ATC' feature. If the frequency is different from the one which just dropped you, give them a call.

BobTurner said:

Unless you asked to go thru the class B airspace he shouldn't have "cleared" you anywhere.

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You got me. Poor choice of words. What I should have said was once he heard Gorman then he gave me a squawk code and I was then on FF.

So using the route I'm actually intending to use, I'd say something like:

"...request VFR flight following to KRHV in Northern Cal via the Vincent Thomas Bridge and the Coastal Route Transition." That will get me up and out of the congestion and give them a general idea of my plan. Sound good?

It is my understanding that if you file a VFR flight plan and then open it, rather than ask for flight following in the air, they can't drop you. (I could be wrong on this.)

The service should be the same.

Made about a dozen flights from SoCAL to RHV with only one fight following issue. Center did not give me a frequency change southbound and we were out of radio contact. Frequency change was relayed by an airliner.

My experiences mirror PCHunt. IF you get dropped without a new frequency, my Garmin 396 can help me find the Center Frequency if I did not get a frequency from Approach. Can also get Center Frequency from the IFR LOW chart from Foreflight or your favorite Tablet EFB.

N941WR said:

It is my understanding that if you file a VFR flight plan and then open it, rather than ask for flight following in the air, they can't drop you. (I could be wrong on this.)

The service should be the same.

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I have always understood, and been told many times, that ATC has no knowledge whatsoever of VFR flight plans - they stay with the FSS - so this is most likely a coincidence, not a casue and effect.

I have also found that giving an exact destination may sometimes cause confusion.

When a long way from home the FF center doesn't know (or care?) where 57AZ is. I now find it much easier to just say "Tucson Area" and worry about telling my exact destination to the final local ATC hand-off.

FF from/to SoCal- Fullerton

Get flight following from ground ctrl at Fullerton-Fullerton will only want the destination.. no more. You tell them you are going to RHV or KRHV. He'll tell you the squawk code to turn to 120 after departure and SoCal approach freq. Once you get SoCal than you tell them destination and altitude. You will want to stay below 4K to El Monte than climb and go direct, no need for Gorman or Lake Hughes. Done this dozen of times.
Coming back in you can come in from any angle but keep in mind that you need to be over El Monte below 4K and there is only 12 miles to Fullerton before entering the right base (usually FUL wont make you do the downwind from the north)

I have discovered that SoCal will tell you what to do if they need to keep you away from traffic, if your radio procedures are weak they will drop you, or at least I have heard 2 separate occasions where the aircraft calling socal with slow and confused lingo has been told to remain clear of B and squawk VFR.

I have had a few occasions where the tower did not know the code I was going to but put in a near (larger airport) code. I needed to tell ATC that I was going to the specific point once I got closer.
Flight following is for ATC's benefit, they want you to use it so they can move you away from larger traffic, otherwise they need to have jets turn to stay away from a VFR plane.

In all my doing this I have never had SoCal drop me, I think you had a unique experience.
Keep it simple- destination and altitude, no need for more information, they will ask if they need it. Make sure you know if there is a fire in the area (TFR) Having a VOR does help if they ask your route, this is more for them for traffic planning than questioning your route.
Enjoy the ride!

I fly out of Torrance and use FF very often. In close to 20 years of flying here I've only been refused FF one time, and that was coming out of Palm Springs through the Banning Pass.

My advice is pretty much the same as what has already been said. Once you're in the air contact SoCal approach choosing the freq from the sectional that is closest to your present location. I usually make my initial call as "SoCal approach Glasair 470XX with VFR request.". This way if they're busy they can tell me to stand by, or if able they can ask for my request. When giving my request I say who I am, where I am and what I want. So if I was out of Fullerton headed to RHV I'd say something like "SoCal approach Glasair 470XX is a Glasair I /G. I'm approximately 3 miles south of Compoton airport at 3500. VFR to RHV via SMO, GORMAN,, climbing to 9500 when clear of bravo, request flight following." I give them a couple of reporting points along my route so they know where I'll be in their airspace, but they usually don't want the entire flight plan. I try to always keep in mind that they are really busy so the shorter my transmission the better.

The problem with the request I just made above is transitioning the bravo. They usually will not clear you to transition the bravo from either north to south or south to north. I'd probably take the special flight rules corridor over LAX at 4500 and then pick uo SoCal over Santa Monica. That makes an easy reporting point and you won't have to worry about the bravo anymore. If you made my original call south of LAX they'd ask how you intend to transition the bravo. At 2500 you could take the mini route but you have to coordinate that with Hawthorne tower who hands you off to to LAX tower so they wouldn't pick you up for flight following. If you tell them the special flight rules corridor that is pilot controlled with no interaction with ATC so again they probably wouldn't pick you up and tell you to make your request after exiting the corridor.

99.9% of the time, in my experience, the controllers here are really helpful and friendly. You should have no problem getting flight following back to RHV. Just have a plan for how to transition the bravo without a clearance and you will be fine.

Thanks to Rosie for helping to clean up my typos...typing a long winded post like this on the cell phone is not easy!!

Know the route and navaids

Mr. Johnson:

Concur w/ Pete, Gary, & John; their good advice would also apply to any public speaker: "be brief, be sincere, and be seated."
Recommend you know your route with respect to Avenal VOR (AVE); it seems to be a dividing line between controllers/frequencies.

I've crossed over LA bravo in both directions 10-12 times in the last year using Flight Following and O2; I'm above most traffic, can spot LAX-, ONT-, and SNA-bound traffic easily, above the haze, at a comfortable temp, and I have a good tailwind when headed South.

What Paul Said

Ironflight said:

I have always understood, and been told many times, that ATC has no knowledge whatsoever of VFR flight plans - they stay with the FSS - so this is most likely a coincidence, not a casue and effect.

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In the "old" days, we'd call FSS on telephone or, if at a controlled field, ask ATC to contact and open our flight plan. After that, they really had no idea of the direction you actually took. If you missed your arrival and/or didn't close, an alert would be issued and a search eventually started. It was hard enough for SAR to find anyone who kept to their plan, let alone those that strayed. With transponders and flight following that's all changed. I encourage everyone to use FF, not only to assist with traffic and aid in a possible search, but to be readily available if you have an emergency. Good post and responses.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

jtrusso said:

<snip> My advice is pretty much the same as what has already been said. Once you're in the air contact SoCal approach choosing the freq from the sectional that is closest to your present location. I usually make my initial call as "SoCal approach Glasair 470XX with VFR request.". This way if they're busy they can tell me to stand by, or if able they can ask for my request.

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SPOT ON with this radio call!!!!!! Rosie approved

jtrusso said:

<snip> 99.9% of the time, in my experience, the controllers here are really helpful and friendly. You should have no problem getting flight following back to RHV. Just have a plan for how to transition the bravo without a clearance and you will be fine.

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Concur 100%!!! NEVER have had problems with flight following in the LA Basin; controllers serving me since 1979 Rosie

ATC and VFR Flight Plans

In regard to ATC not seeing VFR flight plans, I was surprised on a Pilots 'n Paws flight returning through Huntsville Class C a few years ago when the controller asked me what type of animal I had on board. It was a Boston Terrier.

The only way he could have known to ask was to see my VFR flight plan where I indicated "Animal Rescue Flight" in the Remarks Section.

That may have been a fluke, or perhaps different ATC facilities have different access to flight plans, or perhaps they weren't very busy in Huntsville that day. I can't explain it, but I was surprised by the question because I didn't think an approach controller had access to VFR flight plans. YMMV.

Rosie said:

SPOT ON with this radio call!!!!!! Rosie approved



Concur 100%!!! NEVER have had problems with flight following in the LA Basin; controllers serving me since 1979 Rosie

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You will run into a few controllers that really dislike the use of the word "request", as being excess verbage. Of course you have a request, why else would you be calling them?

Brevity

In most cases, when already airborne, I try to listen on a given frequency for a few minutes to determine controller workload.
The busier the controller the more brief my calls become.
Very busy:
LA experimental XXX
Controller: Experimental XXX, go ahead
Experimental xxx, 20 nw XYZ VOR, 9.5, advisories to ABC.
Controller: exp xxx squack 4134
DON'T ACKNOWLEGE just change the transponder code.
Controller; exp xyz, radar contact 25 nw XYZ, advise any change in altitude.

In the case of the OP, second call giving destination as "Bay Area" probably would have worked better. This is because the flight transits a center boundary and the controller may or not be familiar with satellite airports in another center area.
There is no need to use the K prefix for domestic flights.

Thread steal here...sort of...

Since we're talking brevity, good idea anywhere anytime, drop "experimental" and say something useful, like your type. This monstrous five-syllable word can just go away, along with any swollen egos it may engender, and largely has. It's as useless as me announcing "standard" from my 172.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the regs. This one's a real blue law.

Those of you who have never exceeded the speed limit on those black-on-white signs along roads can stick with "experimental".

John Siebold
45 years flying SoCal

The only problem with calling yourself "RV-xxx" is that is often misunderstood as "Army-xxx". Especially near Army bases!

When I hear "Experimental.........", my ears wake up. The controllers are well experienced in saying "Espurmenal".

To each his/her own!

I'd like to be able to choose my own Call-sign. "Gypsy Seven". I would never miss a call.

Day-Dreamin' .........................

PCHunt said:

The only problem with calling yourself "RV-xxx" is that is often misunderstood as "Army-xxx". Especially near Army bases!

When I hear "Experimental.........", my ears wake up. The controllers are well experienced in saying "Espurmenal".

To each his/her own!

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Sorry Pete, but "to each his own" doesn't make for a very organized operation.

"Experimental" tells me that you are ether flying a 30 knot Breezy or a 300 knot Lancair - or anything in between - it doesn't help anyone else at all. "Army?" Sure I've heard that confuse a few folks - just like a Grumman Traveler gets tagged as a "Travelair" sometimes. But there are over 8,000 RV's flying now - a pretty recognizable callsign.

Too many folks use "Experimental" all the time, and it is only required when talking to a Tower (not Approach, not Center, not Departure, not FSS....),and gives no useful information. If your type is important, it now requires a second call of "say type" from ATC - which ties up more frequency time.

Communication is about transmitting useful information, and "Experimental" rarely tells me anything important.

VFR FF

If departing a towered airport I'll ask for a VFR squawk when I contact ground for taxi instructions. This has almost always worked for me in So Cal, or anywhere else with a tower for that matter.
Tim

"Iron" No dispute with anything you said, at all.

I use FF a lot in the LA basin. I usually begin with: "SoCal, Experimental RV-xxx......" etc. Then I listen to what callsign they use when they call me back. It might be "Experimental -xxx".... or it might be "RV-xxx....", or it might be "N-xxx.....". I use whatever callsign they have "assigned" to me.

Then when being handed off to the next sector controller, I check in using the last callsign. Ex: "SoCal, RV-xxx, VFR, 8,500". Sometime the new controller calls me by a slightly different callsign, maybe: "N-xxx, ONT altimeter 29.92". If they modify my callsign, I use the new one. Etc.

Never had a problem, never been dumped.

When I said "To each his/her own" I was merely acknowledging the fact that as much as we try to be standardized in our communication with ATC, it will always be a struggle.

Would this be a good topic for an article in KP?

Love the last few issues, BTW!

Ironflight said:

Sorry Pete, but "to each his own" doesn't make for a very organized operation.

"Experimental" tells me that you are ether flying a 30 knot Breezy or a 300 knot Lancair - or anything in between - it doesn't help anyone else at all. "Army?" Sure I've heard that confuse a few folks - just like a Grumman Traveler gets tagged as a "Travelair" sometimes. But there are over 8,000 RV's flying now - a pretty recognizable callsign.

Too many folks use "Experimental" all the time, and it is only required when talking to a Tower (not Approach, not Center, not Departure, not FSS....),and gives no useful information. If your type is important, it now requires a second call of "say type" from ATC - which ties up more frequency time.

Communication is about transmitting useful information, and "Experimental" rarely tells me anything important.

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Update-Trip Completed, Piece of Cake!

Hey all:

I successfully got into and back out of the LA area today with no problems at all. Thanks for all the tips. I made sure to put most of them to good use. Here is a quick summary:

-The controllers were very helpful and worked with me.

-Sticking with one of the common routes is probably easier. They assumed that I was taking one of the transition routes but I wasn't. This took some explaining on my part.

-I was at 5,500' when I came in over Malibu. I had hoped to cross the class B airspace to the east of LAX after crossing Santa Monica but they did not want me in that airspace. They were obviously ok with me inside the class B over Malibu.

-I told them no problem and after I passed Santa Monica, I dropped to 2,200' which allowed me to get under the LAX class B west of the airport. They dropped me at that point. Since I was only a few minutes away from my destination, Corona, that was fine with me.

-I decided to not ask for FF upon my initial departure from Corona. My plan was to go to 4,500' to the Queen Mary, then turn north to go through the Special Flight Rules Area over LAX. I figured that, as somebody said in this thread, they would just want me to call them once I was through.

-When I got over Santa Monica, I called SoCal departure and started my FF from that point.

-I did tell them what my destination airport was but I was very brief in describing my route. I think I just said up the coast to RHV. This worked fine.

-I like the idea of saying the phrase "VFR request" during my initial call up. That gives them an idea of what I'm going to ask them for. This is what I did.

-Sidebar: I have yet to announce that I was an experimental in the 2 two years I have been flying the RV. Every controller has known what an RV is and by being descriptive, they know what to expect. Like Paul said, the term "Experimental" is too vague. Not one controller has ever scolded me for doing it this way.

The bottom line, this was pretty simple. Yea, I felt pretty busy making sure that I knew where I was and ensuring that I didn't stray into somebody's airspace. As I said, the controllers were helpful and pleasant.

Stay tuned for my complete trip report!

Thanks again VAF family!!

PCHunt said:

"Iron" No dispute with anything you said, at all.

I use FF a lot in the LA basin. I usually begin with: "SoCal, Experimental RV-xxx......" etc. Then I listen to what callsign they use when they call me back. It might be "Experimental -xxx".... or it might be "RV-xxx....", or it might be "N-xxx.....". I use whatever callsign they have "assigned" to me.

When I said "To each his/her own" I was merely acknowledging the fact that as much as we try to be standardized in our communication with ATC, it will always be a struggle.

Would this be a good topic for an article in KP?

Love the last few issues, BTW!

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Peace Pete - I agree that you go with what they call you if they call you something (well, as long as it is fit for the airwaves....).

Article on this for KP? Uh....yeah....you looking at my computer?

Paul

One more thing

One thing that I was surprised to find out was ATC was not familiar with where LA City Hall is, even though it is depicted on the chart as a VFR reporting point. I figured this would be such a slam dunk that I planned it as a waypoint.

In hindsight, ATC never has to deal with these waypoints since the majority of their flights are IFR. Now, I bet the towers know where these waypoints are.

Success!

Glad to hear you had an uneventful trip! It's good to know that ATC cleared you into the bravo at 5500 over Malibu. I like to fly high when coming down the coast and I always descend to 3500 before I get to that block of airspace to avoid the bravo, and it sets me up for the Special Flight Rules. It would be nice to stay a little higher to avoid getting beat up by the occasional bumps near the Malibu mountains.

Also, having a post "Rosie Approved" is the second best moment I've had here on VAF! It's a close second to having a pic I took of an RV on a snowy runway in Mojave on the front page a few years back.

No-one has mentioned the AIM

The AIM has some guidelines... the applicable ones (edited)...

EXAMPLE-
.....
3. "Miami Center, Baron Five Six Three Hotel, request V-F-R traffic advisories."

And, if the ATC Center is not busy -

3. If radio reception is reasonably assured, inclusion of your request, your position or altitude, and the phrase "(ATIS) Information Charlie received" in the initial contact helps decrease radio frequency congestion. Use discretion; do not overload the controller with information unneeded or superfluous. If you do not get a response from the ground station, recheck your radios or use another transmitter, but keep the next contact short.

EXAMPLE-
"Atlanta Center, Duke Four One Romeo, request V-F-R traffic advisories, Twenty Northwest Rome, seven thousand five hundred, over."

The previous comments and contacting ATC with requests should probably be adapted to the part of the US you are in. LAX calls would be of a different length than those to New Orleans, as an example.

ArVeeNiner said:

Hey all:

-I was at 5,500' when I came in over Malibu. I had hoped to cross the class B airspace to the west of LAX after crossing Santa Monica but they did not want me in that airspace. They were obviously ok with me inside the class B over Malibu.

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Just a word of caution/reminder for others reading this thread: You can never assume clearance into Class B airspace just because you are talking to the appropriate control agency. YOU MUST HEAR THE MAGIC WORDS "Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace" BEFORE ENTERING!

Skylor
RV-8

I did indeed hear the magic words. However, they weren't interested in letting me stay there for very long. I ended up descending after only a couple of minutes in the B airspace...initially down to 3,500 then to 2,200 to get under the remaining class B.

ArVeeNiner said:

-I told them no problem and after I passed Santa Monica, I dropped to 2,200' which allowed me to get under the LAX class B west of the airport. They dropped me at that point. Since I was only a few minutes away from my destination, Corona, that was fine with

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I hope I am not understanding what you posted here. Unless you were something like 20 miles off shore there is no way you were under LAX Brovo at 2500 feet west of the airport.

My wife works at LAX tower and this sounds exactly like a story she told me recently about someone that busted the Brovo west of LAX after talking to SMO. They are looking for that guy they are not happy. They are there to help but mess with a plane with hundreds of folks on board they get real mad real quick.

The only folks that can clear you through the Mini Route is LAX TOWER. Pretty much anything in that little venturi shaped area the tower gives you clerance (published route's each one has its own rules). Make darn shure you hear Cleared into Class Brovo and that clerance does not come from SMO or HHR.

Any way bottom line you might want to review your flight cairfully and make sure you did not bust LAX airspace. There was a go around or an abortated take off in the incident she was telling me about.

If there was any posdibility it was you talk to folks smarter than me for advise and conceder filing a ASRS form http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

Whoa, I think I've been tried and convicted!

Tell your wife that I wasn't the guy busting the airspace. I think ATC would have tipped me off if I had since I was talking to them.

I fixed my typo in an earlier post from west to east. Where I was, to the east of LAX, you can get under the class B at 2,200. I never said I was at 2,500.

I don't think I mentioned the Mini Route at all. I had no intention of using the Mini Route. I did use the Special VFR corridor over LAX on the way home. It worked great.

I never talked to SMO, only SoCal approach as directed.

I did indeed hear the magic words as I stated and do understand that you must hear them before entering.

Thanks for the link though. I hope to never need to use it.

Not Convicted

Sorry I did not see the correction.

Like I said I hoped I was not understanding your post. I was and I am glad. It sounded EXACTLY like a story she was venting about the other day, she was pissed to put mildly. That guy WAS talking to ATC but he obviously (from her story) did not understand the airspace or his instructions. I would have laughed at all his mistakes but she would probabily have hit me.

You are correct you did not mention the Mini Route. For some reason it seemed to fit as I was banging away on a small keyboard.

2200 or 2500 feet is of little differance west of LAX you need to be a long way out to be clear of class B was my point.

It may be hard to believe but she does not go to VAF for any reason at any time so she knows nothing about it. I just wanted to make sure a fellow pilot (RV pilot) was not in hot water and found a way out if he was.

By the way try the Mini Route sometime they really are nice folks in the tower ... most of the time

Any way glad to be wrong.