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  #1  
Old 12-14-2018, 06:11 PM
AirHound AirHound is offline
 
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Default MEL?

I see an Installed Equipment List in the POH. Is there a MEL for a RV12 ELSA?
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2018, 06:26 PM
Tommy123 Tommy123 is offline
 
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I've never seen a MEL outside of part 121 operations.
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2018, 07:14 PM
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SmilingJack SmilingJack is offline
 
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Or... 91 and 135 ops...
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  #4  
Old 12-14-2018, 08:37 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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There was no MEL in my operating limits.
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2018, 03:41 AM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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In order to use an MEL "for real", you need individual approval from the FAA, and it is a very time-consuming and tedious process with lots and lots of paperwork. Avweb actually has an article running on it right now: https://www.avweb.com/news/features/...-231976-1.html

MEL's are also considered essentially an STC for that aircraft; as RVs don't have type certificates, STCs aren't really applicable.

Now, there's nothing stopping you from making your own unofficial version of one that you use for your own decision-making. I've thought about doing the same for my airplane, as it will have (comparably) complex systems and an electrically-dependent engine. That way I'll have a good list of "this is what I need" and I won't be having to try and figure all that out on the road if I'm stuck somewhere (or possibly compromising my judgment due to time pressure). It's sort of like setting personal IFR minimums, I guess.
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2018, 03:59 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt View Post
Now, there's nothing stopping you from making your own unofficial version of one that you use for your own decision-making. I've thought about doing the same for my airplane, as it will have (comparably) complex systems and an electrically-dependent engine. That way I'll have a good list of "this is what I need" and I won't be having to try and figure all that out on the road if I'm stuck somewhere (or possibly compromising my judgment due to time pressure). It's sort of like setting personal IFR minimums, I guess.
I had my CFI during a BFR ask for my Min Equip List 10 years ago. He must have read about it or had to do something with it at his work (chief pilot for a charity flying patients to receive treatment in other cities). I made one up and put it in my POH for all the reasons mentioned above by rmartingt. Good to have it thought through before you need it while out flying. I also carry electronically in a Dropbox my entire equipment list, including hoses, with serial numbers, phone numbers, and dates manufactured and installed just In case I need that while out and about.
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2018, 08:17 AM
pilotyoung pilotyoung is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 108
Default MEL

I flew in a Part 91 corporate flight department for 18 years. We had several model Citations over that time period. We had MEL for the airplanes, but they came from Cessna and we got them approved by the FSDO. As I remember we started getting them when RVSM started. The MEL was a part of the RVSM material.
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2018, 08:47 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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I am not familiar with US rules but my basic premise would be that if you don't need it, then don't cause potential problems for yourself by generating one. The decision making process you go through in producing an MEL is the same as you would in dealing with an individual problem day-to-day ie "is it sensible to get home with this issue and fix it later".

I have spent the last 30 years flying big jets and we used to have a tiny Ops manual and a lot of common sense. Now it's the other way round.....
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  #9  
Old 12-15-2018, 09:49 AM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul330 View Post
The decision making process you go through in producing an MEL is the same as you would in dealing with an individual problem day-to-day ie "is it sensible to get home with this issue and fix it later".
The idea behind generating your own is twofold:

First, it allows you to sit down and really review the aircraft's systems when you have your schematics and manuals there to decide if you're still maintaining a level of safety that you consider adequate. That probably isn't as big an issue on a day VFR carb-and-mag airplane... but on something with a dual-battery dual-alternator electrical system, electrically-dependent (e.g. EFI) engine, and IFR glass, for example, things could be a lot more complicated.
Are you ok flying without that standby alternator? What are your abnormal procedures for doing so? What happens if you then experience another failure? Are all your avionics tied together on a bus, or does each EFIS screen "manage" certain components? Those questions are a lot easier to answer with your wiring diagrams, electrical load budgets, and operating manuals on hand instead of trying to remember all that on the fly. I know on the big jets at work, there are non-MELable items which aren't obvious--you think "surely I don't need that, it's just XX widget!" until you really dig deep into the schematics or consider interrelated failures and realize that with XX failed, you have no redundancy in safety-critical systems.

I want to do my engineering when I have my engineering hat on, not when I have my pilot hat on. It's like the rule for not troubleshooting failures in flight--deal with the problem and troubleshoot on the ground, instead of playing mechanic when you're in the air.


The other idea, as I said, is to exercise some form of self-discipline. How many times have we read stories from pilots who let get-there-itis push them into flying with inoperative equipment, when they should have stayed on the ground? Yeah, ideally we'd all exercise superior judgment all the time and never let ourselves be pressured (or never pressure ourselves) into making a bad decision. But the draw of "oh, I'll be all right... I'm almost home and then I can fix it tomorrow" can be awful powerful. We regularly see large jet pilots and operators asking "we're on a trip and this critical widget broke; it's not in the MEL but can we finish our trip anyway?".


It might be of even greater benefit if you ever let someone else borrow or use your airplane, if it's a shared/club airplane, or if you ever sell it, especially (again) if you have complex or non-traditional systems. You might know the airplane's systems intimately and be an experienced pilot with supreme judgment at all times... but the next guy might not be.


Of course, making such a list is only worthwhile if you're going to stick to it. Sure, it's unofficial and not legally-binding, and so you could just waiver yourself around it when it's inconvenient... but down that road lies "normalization of deviance", and that's somewhere I don't think we want to tread.
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  #10  
Old 12-15-2018, 10:03 AM
AirHound AirHound is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OFallon IL now, everywhere before
Posts: 291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt View Post
In order to use an MEL "for real", you need individual approval from the FAA, and it is a very time-consuming and tedious process with lots and lots of paperwork. Avweb actually has an article running on it right now: https://www.avweb.com/news/features/...-231976-1.html

MEL's are also considered essentially an STC for that aircraft; as RVs don't have type certificates, STCs aren't really applicable.

Now, there's nothing stopping you from making your own unofficial version of one that you use for your own decision-making. I've thought about doing the same for my airplane, as it will have (comparably) complex systems and an electrically-dependent engine. That way I'll have a good list of "this is what I need" and I won't be having to try and figure all that out on the road if I'm stuck somewhere (or possibly compromising my judgment due to time pressure). It's sort of like setting personal IFR minimums, I guess.
My apologies! When I started this thread question, I should have referenced above AVWEB article (post #5) which led me to believe I had found another list/document to have to be legal in my ELSA RV12. Did not intend to create any angst, nor time suck, for anyone pondering on what appears to be a non-issue. Again my apologies!
However your responses are very informative and it is neat to see the depth of knowledge in the forum.
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