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ADSB Compliance

T

todehnal

Well Known Member
ADSB Compliance - Skyview vs G3X

I attended a local ADSB seminar yesterday that was put on by Garmin. Like Dynon's Skyview system, Garmin did not have a certified GPS solution for us experimental guys included with there G3X EFIS, short of installing a 430, or 530. So, like Dynon, even though you installed the ADSB box, come 2020, you would not be legal, due to the uncertified GPS that was included with your EFIS systems. What a bummer!! Well, it looks like you guys that chose Garmin, over Dynon, are going to be okay. The Garmin rep told us that they had an economical, and compliant, remotely mounted WAAS GPS solution for their G3X system, which would be released later this month at Oshkosh. So, anyone who has not placed your avionics package order, needs to wait for Oshkosh, and to take a hard look at what Garmin is offering. It would really be nice to only have to buy, and install, one avionics system, and to be ready, and in compliance for the 2020 ADSB mandate. FYI, I recently sent an email to Dynon on this subject, and I did not get a "we're working on it" response. Anyway, you need to inquire, before you buy.

Tom
 
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Yeah Baby!

This is very exciting news. I was hoping that garmin would come out with a UAT box similar to NavWox. If this is what they have coming it will be great especially if it will work with the GTX 327 and feed traffic and weather data to all their Mobil units 496 through 796 as well as Garmin pilot. I'll be at OSH so as soon as I hear about it I'll update everyone.:D
 
Future SkyView GPS

Since it's only 2015, I'm hoping (expecting?) that Dynon will have an economical solution to this issue before 2020! What say you Dynon? The world (and all us loyal Dynon users) waits!
 
My money says they will have one. All they have to do is negotiate a licensing agreement with a vendor that already has a GPS unit that meets TSO standards and integrate it into their system. Be patient Grasshopper.;)
 
Check Dynon's forum, the did say something on 15 June: SkyView does not currently support third party ADS-B receivers. There aren't current plans to either, but it's not an impossibility. Keep in mind that with the FAA's recent rule change, things are changing, especially for homebuilders. We don't have anything to announce right now, but we'll have more to say about ADS-B before too long.

Keep in mind an approved GPS device needs to work with a transmitter of some kind, either an extended squitter transponder or a transceiver.
 
Garmin solution :-(

I don't think it's going to be that good. If I understand it correctly, us Garmin 327 guys are going to have to buy a GTX 23 remote transponder and then the new soon to be announced compliant GPS box that will hookup to the 23. Still going to cost us $3000 at least, and that will still require you to have something like a G3X screen to set the transponder code with and also have a GDL 39 for ADSB in.
 
bhester said:
I don't think it's going to be that good. If I understand it correctly, us Garmin 327 guys are going to have to buy a GTX 23 remote transponder and then the new soon to be announced compliant GPS box that will hookup to the 23. Still going to cost us $3000 at least, and that will still require you to have something like a G3X screen to set the transponder code with and also have a GDL 39 for ADSB in.
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You're right, but any of us with an EFIS, mode S xponder, and ADSB transmitter, only need a compliant remotely mounted WAAS GPS to be totally ready for 2020. By the way, you are not required to have the ADSB in, just the out, which requires that approved GPS.

Confusing, to say the least...........Tom
 
Jetguy said:
This is very exciting news. I was hoping that garmin would come out with a UAT box similar to NavWox. If this is what they have coming it will be great especially if it will work with the GTX 327 and feed traffic and weather data to all their Mobil units 496 through 796 as well as Garmin pilot. I'll be at OSH so as soon as I hear about it I'll update everyone.:D
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This is what drove me to switch...and I was told the unit would be under $1k😎
 
Looks like multiple expectations on what is to come from Garmin in this thread.

That is the problem with rumors...someone may be happy and others disappointed.

My advice is don't get too wound up in all of this until you see the official release.
 
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I love Dynons ADS-B box - best 1k anyone could ever spend imho if you have the Skyview system.

It has saved me from multiple mid-air close calls already, including a recent one where I was VFR flight following at 11500 and saw some guy aimlessly boring holes over the rim at 11300-11800! I saw him on ADS-B for about 10 minutes while approaching as he climbed and descended, pointed him out to Ctr, who finally picked him up.

He was always right where the ADS-B said he was.

All that is needed is FAA "guidance" to give EAB and ELSA owners the go ahead to use these systems after 2020 or change things so we can continue to use them without the need for some integrity-checking gps system.

Personally, the system in my RV-12 is better than what we have in airliners - which is just a blind traffic avoidance climb/descend system. At least I can see what is coming a long way off.
 
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I don't know if you guys saw the Appareo new box they were showing off at SnF this year? It is basically a form factor very similar to the GTX 327 that combines all of the transponder functions with a WAAS GPS source and compliant ADSB out. They were saying around $3.5K I believe and availability around SnF next year. I am assuming that Garmin will bring out their own version of the same thing. It would be really nice to just slot out the 327 and slot in a compliant solution all in one box.

https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b-out/


Carl
 
Bill_H said:
5 years in electronics? For the EAB-ELSA-SLSA world? Best to do NOTHING right now!
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Dave12 said:
The absolute best advice you could take!
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I look at this a little differently, living and flying in a high density traffic area I find the traffic feature to be worth its weight in gold.

I equipped many years ago with basic TIS A after a near mid-air close to home base and now have full up ADS-B, bottom line for me, I think onboard traffic/weather is the best thing since slided bread and not having it would be almost unthinkable!

So if saving money is your biggest priority then yes waiting is likely to lead to cheaper alternatives, but if safety is your highest priority then why would you wait.

If Garmin comes out with a $1K certified GPS source for the G3X system it would be a no brainer for the light sport guys.
 
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Walt said:
I look at this a little differently, living and flying in a high density traffic area I find the traffic feature to be worth its weight in gold.

I equipped many years ago with basic TIS A after a near mid-air close to home base and now have full up ADS-B, bottom line for me, I think onboard traffic/weather is the best thing since slided bread and not having it would be almost unthinkable!

So if saving money is your biggest priority then yes waiting is likely to lead to cheaper alternatives, but if safety is your highest priority then why would you wait.

If Garmin comes out with a $1K certified GPS source for the G3X system it would be a no brainer for the light sport guys.
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I'm not sure Bill was arguing against getting the ADSB unit now - he might have been saying don't worry about complying with a 2020 requirement in 2015. The ADSB as it stands today is excellent, but not compliant with a 2020 GPS requirement that may become less restrictive before it becomes active five years from now.
 
Walt said:
If Garmin comes out with a $1K certified GPS source for the G3X system it would be a no brainer for the light sport guys.
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If it will work with the Garmin 327 that would be awesome but I think it is going to require a replacement of the 327 with the GTX 23 which will be an additional $2000. :-(

Keeping fingers crossed patiently waiting.
 
I have the Dynon Skyview, with Dynon ADSB-OUT transponder, And DYNON ADSB-IN box. So I (currently) get all ADSB-IN (traffic and weather) and send ADSB-OUT but based on the Dynon Skyview GPS source, which is (currently) not a 2020 compliant GPS source.

I think the GPS source rules are MASSIVELY STUPID for flying VFR - and IFR for that matter - and that basically "any" modern avionic GPS position source is "good enough."

I think the "2016 threat" (if true) to remove ADSB-IN services from planes like mine is also MASSIVELY STUPID.

I'll be at OSH2015, will have read up on the latest regarding this topic, and may ask a question that includes the phrase "MASSIVELY STUPID."
 
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bhester said:
If it will work with the Garmin 327 that would be awesome but I think it is going to require a replacement of the 327 with the GTX 23 which will be an additional $2000. :-(

Keeping fingers crossed patiently waiting.
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When I say G3X system I "assume" one has the 23ES (mode S) transponder as well, the 327 is not ES and therefore cannot be used for ADS-B out.
 
For those looking for a great deal from Garmin, have they ever presented a product that was less expensive then their competition?:rolleyes:

Just sayin'
 
You know, I don't get worked up about too many issues but this is one that will definitely have me writing and calling my Congressman. I find it completely unacceptable that the FAA would deny critical traffic information to users that don't have a certified system. My engineering training tells me there should be ways to implement a quality or certainty factor for the inputs to the system that would allow controllers to understand the degree of confidence in any aircraft reporting on the system. That is no different from the current architecture where a non-squawker is only seen on raw radar. The controller might not see a raw target at all but, if he does, the observation provides valuable information. At a very minimum, we should categorize non-compliant ADS-B subscribers as 'raw' data and allow them participate. Denying non-compliant users access to the best information is not just wrong, I think it would be criminal. The first mid-air where the FAA refused that valuable information to a capable subscriber will be a landmark case.

For goodness sake FAA, apply the reasonableness rule to this one!
 
I put in a Freeflight system that provides ADS-B Out and, through my iPad, ADS-B In. As I understand it experimental must demonstrate performance equal to the TSO. I use the same system STC'd in my Cherokee. I think I'm covered.

Let me say this about ADS-B: it is a wonderful tool for avoiding traffic conflicts. Through my use I have concluded that I can't reliably spot traffic until it is within 2 miles. After two years I have come to regard ADS-B as a valuable friend in the cockpit.
 
Great marketers too...

Got to love the model number they came up with ....SV-GPS-2020...finally product numbering that makes sense!
 
GalinHdz said:
Why take it out? Instal the 2020 unit as primary and connect the old one as a backup GPS.
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From the Dynon FAQ site:

"I already have a SkyView/AF-5000 system. Do I have to tear apart my aircraft?

 No: It couldn?t be easier to retrofit. If you are already using the SV-GPS-250 as your position source, it?s truly a drop-in plug-and-play replacement. The SV-GPS-2020 uses the same four wires and has the same mounting pattern. If you have an unused serial port on your system, you can opt to add the SV-GPS-2020 without removing your existing SV-GPS-250. This gains you a second GPS position source for redundancy/backup."
 
Driftdown said:
From the Dynon FAQ site:

"I already have a SkyView/AF-5000 system. Do I have to tear apart my aircraft?

 No: It couldn?t be easier to retrofit. If you are already using the SV-GPS-250 as your position source, it?s truly a drop-in plug-and-play replacement. The SV-GPS-2020 uses the same four wires and has the same mounting pattern. If you have an unused serial port on your system, you can opt to add the SV-GPS-2020 without removing your existing SV-GPS-250. This gains you a second GPS position source for redundancy/backup."
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That's what I was thinking...but for the RV12 owners, the question will be where does it need to be mounted to make the signal all legal like...I sure don't want to be staring at it outside the front window....maybe a custom wider or longer GPS antenna tray in the engine compartment?

Or just take the old one out and sell it here?
 
cactuspilot said:
That's what I was thinking...but for the RV12 owners, the question will be where does it need to be mounted to make the signal all legal like...I sure don't want to be staring at it outside the front window....maybe a custom wider or longer GPS antenna tray in the engine compartment?

Or just take the old one out and sell it here?
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I'm pretty sure Dynon said that the antenna has to be external to meet the 2020 requirements.
 
BobTurner said:
I'm pretty sure Dynon said that the antenna has to be external to meet the 2020 requirements.
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Not exactly. What they said was that the -2020 device requires a stronger signal than the -250 so the -2020 "cannot be painted" and "may need to be mounted externally" to achieve adequate signal strength. I would say this depends greatly on your installation. If you're replacing an existing -250, I'd just swap it out and see what happens. If that doesn't work then you might need to explore another mounting location.

In my RV-4, with the -250 mounted on the turtleback under an open canopy, I'm betting there won't be any problem. But, I kinda like the idea of keeping the 250 installed and adding on the -2020. That will require another location and, based on the recommendation, I'll probably put that in the open further back on the fuselage.
 
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