Engine Replacement Options

As a new aircraft owner, I am quickly realizing that ownership requires, at least at times, a tremendous amount of knowledge that you aren't taught in flight school or as any part of flight training. While I understood that all of those obligations had to be met like annuals, static tests, insurance, hanger, avionics checks & etc. As a flight instructor and corporate pilot I was somewhat insulated from all the tasks and arrangements required.

I do hope to be a contributor to this site at some point in the future but all of my recent posts have been questions and this one is no different.

I have RV-6 with a 160 HP Lycoming O-320 D2B engine and a fixed pitch prop. It may be time to consider overhaul or replacement. Can you help me understand the practical options and recommend some good ones?

For the sake of this discussion let's assume there is an expensive issue with my engine.

Lastly, I am satisfied with the performance of the plane with the current power. I don't want a solution that would limit the plane's appeal to potential buyers in the future and I would like to optimize the cost to reliability ratio.

The mission for this plane is VFR short duration (<2hr.) flights for 99% of the flying I will do in it. I expect my flying time to be in the normal range for a general aviation pilot per year--somewhere between 25 and 100 hours per year in this plane.

If there is cost neutral or low cost upgrade that you would recommend like maybe an O-360, then I wouldn't want to be myopic by only focusing on O-320s.

Thank you in advance for your help,
Hank

Henryrifle said:

For the sake of this discussion let's assume there is an expensive issue with my engine.

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I would be easier to address this question if we had some idea of what the "expensive issue" is with the engine. Your best option might be replacement or possibly overhaul (there are several types) depending on the "issue".

Sam is right, it would help to have more information. What exactly are you wanting to plan for, i.e. your objective? Are you making a piggy bank for engine replacement at overhaul time? how many hours on the engine now? What is the prop, wood, metal, composite?

Here is a link to Van's prices for new, experimental engines. It will give you a top end idea. From there, a more well defined objective would help others (who are qualified, not me) quantify the options. It is hardly likely that you would not have residual value in your engine, after an "event".

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/order_forms/lycoming_order_form.pdf

If you were to do the engine off/replace path my suggestion would be buy an IO320 through Vans, and a Hartzel BA C/S prop.

Stick with two mags and if you decide to stay fixed pitch go for the Vans Sensinich.

The 320 in a 6 is a sweet option and very efficient as well as quick.

I thought he was looking for more basic information, like:
1. Buy a new engine
2. Buy a re-built engine
3. Have your engine overhauled by the factory, or well known overhaul shop
4. Have your engine field overhauled by an A&P you trust.

These are roughly in order of cost. #2 is an engine built up by Lycoming out of new and used parts, while #3 and #4 will re-use many of your parts.

Generally #3 and 4 require you to guarantee that the case and crank will be re-useable; otherwise there's an expensive upcharge. So if you think your crank is defective, #1 or #2 may be cheaper than the others.

BillL said:

Sam is right, it would help to have more information. What exactly are you wanting to plan for, i.e. your objective? Are you making a piggy bank for engine replacement at overhaul time? how many hours on the engine now? What is the prop, wood, metal, composite?

Here is a link to Van's prices for new, experimental engines. It will give you a top end idea. From there, a more well defined objective would help others (who are qualified, not me) quantify the options. It is hardly likely that you would not have residual value in your engine, after an "event".

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/order_forms/lycoming_order_form.pdf

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Are Van's prices not a one time offer for new kits only?

A few years ago I found a whole heap of metal in my oil filter. The only sensible option was to overhaul my engine and re-install, in 2004 that cost $10K. I sent my engine from Texas to Aerosport Power in Canada. Most overhaul companies wanted to sell me an engine off their shelf, some tried to tell me what I wanted. I knew I wanted new 160hp Superior cylinders, plus one or two other things. I could not find many other companies who understood Experimentals, and would build an engine to the customer's specification. I'm still flying the same airplane with the same engine.

In my opinion a 160hp (I)O-320 is the best option for an RV-6. A c/s prop is quite desirable, but is an expensive upgrade ($10K, really needs a post 2000 [I think] c/s cowl).

If you upgrade to a 180hp motor you may get core value back on the O-320 ($5k?), but will have to pay around $25K for the O-360. There will be many other changes that will be required - new baffling (time consuming rather than expensive), new exhaust ($1K), new cowl scoop (how good are you at fibreglass?), new prop ($1K to $3K). So hardly cost neutral!

Fuel injection is a worthwhile investment, but requires more airframe work than you think (electric pump, fuel pressure gauge, poss fuel flow sender), so turns out to be a $4K to $5K upgrade. I would install electronic ignition (say 2 x P-mags - a $2.5K upgrade) before FI.

I wouldn't buy an engine from Van's - they are an airframe company selling Lycoming catalogue engines (admittedly at a very good price). You will get an engine more suited to your needs from an engine company.

There will probably be plenty of other views

Pete

Ron B. said:

Are Van's prices not a one time offer for new kits only?

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Really good question. I don't know for sure, but I thought you "could by an engine from Vans for installation in your RV" - meaning the builder number/ownership is registered with Van's. I don't remember anywhere they said one engine. I will follow-up.

Edit, Yes, one engine per kit. Drat.

Hi,

Does anyone knows Superior History to tell? I understand that they were closed for some time. Someone has said Lycoming bought them to eliminate competition as they did a better cheaper product. And USA anti-trust law in benefit of competition applied the law and reverted the buy-out restoring the company operational.

Is that it? Trying to raise all the info and comments possible on those engines, they seem a very nice option slightest better performance (power and comsumption - wise).

To little voters on the pool (link to thread bellow) on which is better...

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=118919

Superior history

Superior air parts was started in the late 1960's and grew until they made FAA/PMA replacement parts for most Lycoming and allot of Continental products.
Thielert AG flush with cash from their IPO purchased Superior Air Parts. Superior built and certified an in-house Lyclone (Superior Vantage) and a line of experimental (XP) engines based off the PMA parts lines plus other parts.
Thielert declares bankruptcy due to financial misconduct and fraud. Some Superior cylinder and other technologies sold off as part of Thielert bankruptcy.
Superior Air Parts is sold to Qingdao Haili Helicopters, a Chinese aircraft manufacturer. Qingdao Haili forms Superior Aviation Beijing with Superior Air Parts as a wholly owned subsidiary.
Superior Air Parts resumes operation, including development of new and improved technologies, but most of the company's production is outsourced to various subcontractors, with Superior ensuring that the parts meet their engineering and testing standards for both PMA and experimental parts.
There's the short version, Russ

Nice input Russ!

You know I am thoughtfully considering to buy XP360 instead Lycoming IO360 it look a bit of a gain for me (slight better power and less fuel consumption)

AK4x4 said:

Superior air parts was started in the late 1960's and grew until they made FAA/PMA replacement parts for most Lycoming and allot of Continental products.
Thielert AG flush with cash from their IPO purchased Superior Air Parts. Superior built and certified an in-house Lyclone (Superior Vantage) and a line of experimental (XP) engines based off the PMA parts lines plus other parts.
Thielert declares bankruptcy due to financial misconduct and fraud. Some Superior cylinder and other technologies sold off as part of Thielert bankruptcy.
Superior Air Parts is sold to Qingdao Haili Helicopters, a Chinese aircraft manufacturer. Qingdao Haili forms Superior Aviation Beijing with Superior Air Parts as a wholly owned subsidiary.
Superior Air Parts resumes operation, including development of new and improved technologies, but most of the company's production is outsourced to various subcontractors, with Superior ensuring that the parts meet their engineering and testing standards for both PMA and experimental parts.
There's the short version, Russ

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Would you opine that it still keeps the quality standard being now a China owned with many subcontractors?

Got worried with customer comments and inputs like on this video (look at written comments )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unMh_dkqaHg

It is the first written comment , maybe an isolated opinion but bothers a lot!

Woud you have the source for the Superior History you mentioned. I would love to have more info on that.

Thanks!

A variation of #4 is to attend the lycoming piston engine and disassembly / assembly schools - and then do the work yourself. Your savings will be significantly more than the tuition, travel and other costs associated with the school.

Dan

Four and a half months later I am able to answer my own question, at least to some degree. While taking off one evening in late September the engine started to make an unusual ticking/knocking sound just as it left the ground. It was loud enough to be clearly heard despite wearing good headsets. Though the plane was airborne there was plenty of runway left to set it back down. The noise quit at idle but wanting to do as little damage as possible, I taxied the plane back to the hanger and shut it down immediately. (I considered shutting down immediately off the runway and towing the plane back to the hanger but decided against that as it was getting dark, and one of my children was with me.)

A few flying hours prior to this event, the plane cracked an exhaust y-pipe weld. The re-welded pipe didn?t last more than approximately two hours of time before the weld broke again. I had it re-welded a second time only to watch it fail again. I know it is hard to weld contaminated metal, but I expected it to last more than an hour or so. In retrospect, I now know it was trying to tell me something. Additionally, I found what I thought was an unrecognized tool head with a sheared shaft just outside my hanger prior to that flight. I threw it in my trashcan so that it wouldn?t cause any damage to my or anyone?s plane.

I have been working with a fantastic mechanic/pilot/aviation guru getting this plane to where I wanted it to be. He quickly isolated the noise to the number 3 cylinder. Three of the four bottom nuts that secure the cylinder to the case had sheared off, and the fourth was very loose. The knocking sound was the jug banging against the case. The exhaust pipe weld that wouldn?t stay welded was attached to that cylinder.

We decided to have the engine inspected. It had approximately 1400 hours on it. We were presented with several options, but in the end the only two that made sense to me were to purchase a new engine or have mine overhauled. My engine has a strange combination of dynafocal mounts and prop hub size. Buying a new engine would almost certainly mean purchasing a new prop as well. I also thought the overhaul route might be a little less expensive. It wasn?t.

Over the past four days the engine overhaul was completed, remounted using new hardware and a new Vetterman exhaust. One of the guys from the engine shop came out and performed the initial run of the engine today and signed off the log book after a successful first run. There are a few more items to button up and, if the weather cooperates, I?ll be back in the air and performing some of the break-in tasks for the overhauled engine.

It is really interesting to me that someone more experienced than me might have been able to identify what was going on with the engine. The ?tool head with the sheared shaft? was now obviously one of the cylinder nuts with the stud sheared off inside it. The broken exhaust was being vibrated much more than normal. Even if I?d recognized those signs for what they were, I think the end result may have been the same (though I wouldn?t have risked flying a plane with an engine that was in need of some attention and, possibly, a few minutes away from developing into a much more serious problem).

Lesson(s) learned for me. Maybe someone else can benefit from this experience.

Hank

Overhaul or buy new

Hank,

I have the same narrow deck engine/prop as you. No problems yet with about 500 hrs SMOH. Was wondering what made your overhaul so expensive? Would you buy new if you had a do-over?

John

I opted for new pistons and cylinders and at the end we purchased new mags and exchanged the carburetor rather than rebuilding the one I had. We did this to speed up the process. I also had the engine built and signed off as a certified engine rather than an experimental one. Maybe that was unnecessary but it gives me comfort in knowing that no shortcuts were taken.

Would I do it differently if I had a do-over? Aside from the expense which I would rather have invested in paint and avionics, the worst part of the project was the time the plane was down. It took a couple of weeks to finish the initial inspection. Then came Thanksgiving followed by Christmas which added even more weeks to the rebuild. If I had known how long the plane was going to be grounded, I would have purchased a new engine but at the time I had to commit to a course of action and there was no sense in questioning that decision after I committed to it.

I don't think an overhauled engine is as "good" as a brand new engine but it is as close as you can get and have some reasonable assurance that I won't have to do that again for as long as I own this plane and, most likely, the next owner will get an engine in very good shape.

As a good aviation buddy of mine likes to say, “there are no wrong answers here.” I think in this case I understand what that means.

Thanks Hank

Appreciate you taking the time to share your experience.