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  #1  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:19 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Default A culture of safety?

This evening I was on a conference call with an aviation organization, the exact organization isn't important.

Part of the discussion centered on how to host a "safe" fly-in. During that discussion it was brought up that recently, at a large regional fly-in, an "RV-4" performed a high speed pass, pulled up, rolled the plane, came around and landed, where they had a visit with an FAA representative on the field.

These impromptu flight displays are dangerous to the pilot (and passengers), other aircraft in the area, and puts the continued hosting of the fly-in in jeopardy.

My question is this, how do we, the aviation community, convince pilots not to "show off" during fly-ins?
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  #2  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:22 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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As long as the show-off pilot continues to get high-fives and atta-boys from spectators (and pilots....) on the ground after landing it will be very difficult to change attitudes.
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  #3  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:49 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
As long as the show-off pilot continues to get high-fives and atta-boys from spectators (and pilots....) on the ground after landing it will be very difficult to change attitudes.
Sam is correct - until all of us show the courage not to support such behavior, we do NOT have a culture of safety - and mishaps (and potential enforcement actions, and crackdowns....) will continue.

Interestingly enough, if a person crashes doing a low level stunt, it gets categorized as a "Loss of Control" accident, right there along with the poor guy who stalls/spins on the base to final turn. One has to do with poor judgement, the other with poor skills - totally different causes, but folks are busy trying to fix LOC accidents with a single fix.

I always say that if you just love doing low level aerobatics for the pure fun of it, go ahead and do them far away from anyone. But for some reason, they are just more fun with an audience, aren't they?

Paul
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  #4  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:10 AM
sblack sblack is offline
 
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What happened to the rv4 guy? Was the faa guy impressed? Or did he get the book thrown at him?

We have had similat incidence at our flyin breakfast. One year a local ag pilot decided to give a crop dusting demo. The field owners get very upset because their insurance does not cover them for an "airshow", only a fly-in. A dumb stunt can void their coverage. He got a mixture of high fives and death threats when he landed. It is a hard problem to solve. I guess education is the only solution, and harsh enforcement.
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:01 AM
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erich weaver erich weaver is offline
 
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Tough nut to crack when similar maneuvers are both glorified, through legal and heavily promoted air shows, and vilified/criminalized, through safety forums and FAA enforcement.

People will pay money to see death defying acts. Some people are willing to perform them for free. I don't see that changing.

Erich
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  #6  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:03 AM
terrykohler terrykohler is offline
 
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Default A Couple of Well-Worn Expressions Come to Mind

"You can't fix stupid" and "He's Over 40, You're not going to change him"

Bill:
I know this subject has been kicked around on a number of occasions, yet it keeps cropping up. If the sponsors of a fly-in don't want this to happen, they probably need their promo to show something like, "Unauthorized high speed flyovers or aerobatics are not permitted and will be reported".
Until we're willing to "shoot a few prisoners", we really can't expect the rest of the miscreants to fall in line, especially, when there's someone on the ground giving them a high five, or worse yet, now anxious to go out and do it themselves for a little recognition.
Talking with most of these folks just doesn't work - history tells us that. If we're really concerned about everyone's safety, and our words have fallen on deaf ears, we need to be willing to call the people that are capable of enforcing that safety. I guess I'd rather do that than find myself sitting around the airport table at some point in the future and telling everyone "I knew he'd kill himself sooner or later".
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  #7  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:28 AM
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Default Old problem

This is an old problem. No easy solution. I think peer pressure is the right answer, which will take time. If you want an example of this behavior in the military, read the report on the Fairchild AFB B-52 crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_F...ase_B-52_crash

I've seen confrontations with the guys doing this kind of thing, and it usually goes in one of several ways: "sorry, you are right, I was stupid, won't happen again". That's one of the best, rare conclusions. Mostly, it's "I know what I'm doing; I have my freedom; let them try to pry my ticket from my smoking, burning, fingers; mind your own business; etc."

I hate to be fatalistic, but perhaps we as a society need to accept that there are people who just want to be different, and sometimes they will kill themselves and others, and we should take reasonable measures to avoid this, but need to accept that the problem and the risk will be there unless we ban all humans.

Driving to the grocery store entails risk, and some crazy person might decide to crash into you. If you go to a flyin, some crazy person might do something stupid and crash into you. There is risk in everything we do and even in what we don't do.

</rant>
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  #8  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:57 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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I am pretty much convinced that trying to change that type of behavior in an individual is fruitless.

Where I direct my energy is making sure that those who are impressionable don't try to follow in their footsteps. We change our culture not all at once, but by influencing the next generation in teh direction we want it to go - and frankly, letting the bad behavior weed itself out from the cultural gene pool.

Influence the ones you can in a positive way - it takes time, but it works.

Paul
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  #9  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:19 AM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
Influence the ones you can in a positive way - it takes time, but it works.
Paul
Well stated. That is all we can do.

Recently an experienced pilot on our field came in hot, landed long, but made a good landing albeit right on the edge of what would be considered safe. A young man who I know who is working on his ticket was observing. I asked him what he thought of the landing. "That was coo!", he said. I told him that pilot had hundreds of hours and a ton of experience. When you get your ticket, if you are not touching down on the first third of the runway, go around. If you don't, I will kick you. (That's positive isn't it?) He understood.
I was hangar flying with another newly minted RV7 pilot. Another neighbor and I where at his place when a local came in. The new guy said "watch this, he makes the coolest approach and landings". The pilot made his "banana" approach, got a bit slow, and just then a gust picked up a wing and he almost scraped it. "Oh my" said the new guy. He didn't think that was so cool and promised us he would stabilize his approach and not try what he see's many of our more experienced guys do.
So, it isn't just about illegal and dangerous flying. New pilots observe experienced guys doing advanced things perfectly safe and legal and want to emulate that. That can be just as dangerous, and perhaps even more so, than the "hot dog".
We can all do our part in educating the new guys, but they just want to be like those they admire.
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
So, it isn't just about illegal and dangerous flying. New pilots observe experienced guys doing advanced things perfectly safe and legal and want to emulate that. That can be just as dangerous, and perhaps even more so, than the "hot dog".
I agree with the spirit of the main portion of your post; this last bit I find to be a bit of a slippery slope.

The runway at my home airport, for example, is 4000' feet long and RVs only need a portion of it; as a result, I often aim for about 1/3rd of the way down as that makes the taxi convenient (and I still have lots of room for the unexpected gust etc). Should I not do that and always aim for the numbers because that is what student pilots at the field are taught? Student pilots can't launch into an 800' overcast; should I not do that since they can't and I don't want to be a bad example?

I think the answer to those questions are obvious - but what about things which are perhaps a bit murkier - taking off and landing as a two-ship, or pulling an overhead approach, or any number of other things?

I feel like no one wants to allow room for pilot skill, because that might be seen as "anti-safety". I have seen a friend with 10x the hours and experience I have do things I thought were über cool with his RV, but I would never try them. Not because they weren't safe, but because they weren't safe for me. Shouldn't teaching upcoming pilots to recognize their own limitations be somewhere in the discussion?
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