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  #11  
Old 12-31-2017, 12:46 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
Another consideration is the direction of turn. Because the Lycoming engine rotates to the right (as viewed from the cockpit), the gyroscopic effect of the propeller makes it so that you'll want to do hammerheads to the left. Experiment with both directions and you'll see what I mean.
Minor point of clarification- it's not gyroscopics, but rather the spiraling slipstream that causes a left yaw that favors pivoting left, assuming your prop turns in the direction of a Lycoming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylor View Post
A late correction of an overshoot of the vertical line can easily result in an inverted spin since your are: 1. attempting to push the nose back to vertical with very low airspeed over the wings, and 2. Using rudder to kick the turn. These are pro-spin control inputs.
Have you ever tried that? It's not quite as easy to spin inverted out of a hammer as it's made out to be. Not to discount the value of initial acro dual, but you have to severely mishandle the controls and pretty much hang onto fully deflected elevator and rudder. Making a pitch correction on the upline won't do it. The most common way newbies get into this situation is by kicking way early with too much vertical speed and cramming the stick in the front corner, overdoing the inputs they were briefed on. This basically snap rolls the airplane going vertical which can turn into an aggravated spin if you keep the power in and keep hanging onto those deflected inputs by the time the airplane gets pointed back toward the ground. Applying too much (full) forward stick during a properly timed kick won't do it either. That's sorta how you do a double hammer in more dedicated acro planes. If you hang onto it it'll eventually turn into an aggravated accelerated shoulder roll on the way down but you have lots of time recover before anything resembling a spin happens. But rank newbies can find pretty creative ways to screw up the basic maneuvers, so quality initial dual is wise.

Regarding tailslides in an RV, I would not.
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  #12  
Old 12-31-2017, 08:29 AM
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WillyEyeBall WillyEyeBall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Daleville, AL
Posts: 318
Lightbulb RV inverted spin no fear

Having done hundreds of inverted spins in my RV4 since it's in my free style for competition for the last three years, I can offer some advice. It takes specific inputs, attitude, and timing to make an RV spin inverted as other RV competitors will concur. I received advanced instruction in an Extra 300 before I tried it. Here's a video of a botched hammerhead that starts a tail slide and possible inverted spin at the 1 minute point, but it never gets to the rotation part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLed3Zg40mI

The error with this hammer head was dragging the right wing, kicking left rudder too late which wasn't effective in rotating the nose down.
Be careful and hope to see y'all in the box this year,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL (roll tide)
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  #13  
Old 12-31-2017, 08:59 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
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Originally Posted by WillyEyeBall View Post
Here's a video of a botched hammerhead that starts a tail slide and possible inverted spin at the 1 minute point, but it never gets to the rotation part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLed3Zg40mI
Good illustration but you never got near a spin. You got too slow before the kick and started torque rolling through the slide backward before it swapped ends. Once it flopped over there was no rotation because the controls were properly neutralized. Again, you would have needed to have been hanging into large elevator and rudder deflections after it flopped over.
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  #14  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:54 AM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
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Location: Gold Hill Airpark (NC25), NC
Posts: 1,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyEyeBall View Post
Having done hundreds of inverted spins in my RV4 since it's in my free style for competition for the last three years, I can offer some advice. It takes specific inputs, attitude, and timing to make an RV spin inverted as other RV competitors will concur. I received advanced instruction in an Extra 300 before I tried it. Here's a video of a botched hammerhead that starts a tail slide and possible inverted spin at the 1 minute point, but it never gets to the rotation part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLed3Zg40mI

The error with this hammer head was dragging the right wing, kicking left rudder too late which wasn't effective in rotating the nose down.
Be careful and hope to see y'all in the box this year,
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL (roll tide)
I have marveled at Bill's ability to do inverted spins consistently and wondered why I have never been able to get my -8 to do the same. I have tried inverted spins from every imaginable entry and even with the addition of 20 pounds of lead to the tail (CG 1 1/4 inches forward of the aft aerobatic CG limit, mind you.) I still can not get it to spin inverted. I have enough elevator authority to fly inverted, hands off! But, it still won't spin. For someone to accidentally put a RV into an inverted spin would be a monumental accomplishment and if someone does it, please tell me how!
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IAC Director and National Judge
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2100+ RV Hours
Track Me *** Gold Hill Airpark (NC25)
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2017, 12:01 PM
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skylor skylor is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 634
Default RV Spins

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronschreck View Post
I have marveled at Bill's ability to do inverted spins consistently and wondered why I have never been able to get my -8 to do the same. I have tried inverted spins from every imaginable entry and even with the addition of 20 pounds of lead to the tail (CG 1 1/4 inches forward of the aft aerobatic CG limit, mind you.) I still can not get it to spin inverted. I have enough elevator authority to fly inverted, hands off! But, it still won't spin. For someone to accidentally put a RV into an inverted spin would be a monumental accomplishment and if someone does it, please tell me how!
Not to be argumentative, but It can and does happen in RV’s. In the thread below more than one person discusses having this happen. Granted, They weren’t -8’s...

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...=Inverted+spin

Skylor

Last edited by skylor : 12-31-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2017, 03:49 PM
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Gash Gash is offline
 
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Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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Quote:
if someone does it, please tell me how!
Ron,

Every RV-8 is different, of course, but you might try this: inverted, nose 15 degrees above horizon, push straight to hold this attitude as airspeed decreases, at first sign of stall buffet, kick right rudder and feed in a bit of pro-spin aileron cheat. When it feels like an autorotation is developing, go full throttle to flatten the spin a little. I'm guessing that you probably already tried all this, but just in case...

BTW, how's your -8 handling the 2018 Intermediate Known sequence? It all looks pretty manageable, and since you've already been doing avalanches in your airplane, you have a leg up! I'll be doing Intermediate in the Extra this year.
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2017, 04:23 PM
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WillyEyeBall WillyEyeBall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Daleville, AL
Posts: 318
Thumbs up he got the competition bug

I think Ron and I are glad you're on the other coast so we don't have to compete against you in your Extra. Your description of getting the inverted spin started is very similar to what works in my -4. I always start with a half loop to set the nose up attitude and slow speed to continue bleeding off with forward stick. I also cheat with some cross controls and slight left rudder lowering the wing to the spin side. As soon as it starts to break, it's full Right rudder and a punch of throttle. I start recovery 3/4 of a turn with opposite rudder and back stick about the same time.
Bill McLean
RV4
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2017, 07:03 PM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylor View Post
Not to be argumentative, but It can and does happen in RVís. In the thread below more than one person discusses having this happen. Granted, They werenít -8ís...

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...=Inverted+spin

Skylor
I'm not sure the OP of that thread had a firm understanding of exactly what happened or how he got there but it sounds a bit like the scenario I described of trying to hammer with too much airspeed while shoving the stick near full forward and snapping the airplane. Hate to judge too harshly but he had no business doing acro with a passenger if he was early enough in his acro learning to blow a simple hammer in such spectacular fashion.

My point was that it's not as if you're a gnat's *** away from an inverted spin just doing hammers. Falling on your back out of a hammer does not cause a spin. Improperly fully deflecting the elevator and rudder with too much airspeed can though. Spin inputs are spin inputs, hammer attempt or not. Hammers in RVs require very little forward stick and part of being a good acro pilot is knowing how to avoid aggravating the airplane when something doesn't go exactly as planned. It's really very simple. Just neutralize the controls. It should be instinctive. Unless you're trying to bail out of an inadvertent tailslide before sliding back too fast, there's no reason to ever jam in full elevator to correct or recover from a basic acro maneuver. And even with torque roll reversals or tailslides, you should have the sense to neutralize the controls as soon as it flops nose down. You'll never come close to a spin. True of any type of maneuver.
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  #19  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:09 PM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gold Hill Airpark (NC25), NC
Posts: 1,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
Ron,

Every RV-8 is different, of course, but you might try this: inverted, nose 15 degrees above horizon, push straight to hold this attitude as airspeed decreases, at first sign of stall buffet, kick right rudder and feed in a bit of pro-spin aileron cheat. When it feels like an autorotation is developing, go full throttle to flatten the spin a little. I'm guessing that you probably already tried all this, but just in case...

BTW, how's your -8 handling the 2018 Intermediate Known sequence? It all looks pretty manageable, and since you've already been doing avalanches in your airplane, you have a leg up! I'll be doing Intermediate in the Extra this year.
OK Karl, Ill give it a try when I get the plane back together. Canopy cracked so I decided to overhaul the engine (2150 hours) while I am building a new canopy. BTW, the -8 does the Intermediate routine quite well. Figured out snap rolls and rolling circles and the rest is not a huge step up from Sportsman. (If I have given anyone the urge to try snaps please stay well below maneuvering speed, which is 123 knots in the -8 and know that there is no need to slam controls against the stops. I have never seen more than 4 G's during the snap rolls.)
__________________
Ron Schreck
IAC Director and National Judge
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2100+ RV Hours
Track Me *** Gold Hill Airpark (NC25)
VAF 2018 Donor
"He who demands everything that his aircraft can give him is a pilot; he that demands one iota more is a fool."
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  #20  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:38 PM
greghughespdx greghughespdx is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Aurora, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronschreck View Post
... Figured out snap rolls and rolling circles and the rest is not a huge step up from Sportsman.
Cool - any video of the snaps? Would be fun to see.
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