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Lycoming vs ECI vs Superior: Sorting out Engines

mlwynn

Well Known Member
Hi all,

I went to the Arlington flying last week with the express purpose of sorting out an engine for my RV 8. I spoke at length with the ECI, Lycoming and Superior folks regarding their products. I also spoke with several builders including Aerosport, Mattituck and Eagle. I was left wondering about a couple of issues:

1. All the above make Lycoming or Lycoming clones. What is the real (as opposed to salesmen's) differences between the parts?

I know that Lycoming and Superior take a different approach to roller lifters. The Superior rep had one of their castings and one from an unnamed (presumably Lycoming) source. The Superior was much better made--smoother, better finish. I wondered if it was really representative of the difference. ECI does not, as I understand it, make a roller lifter engine.

2. Superior does not offer flow matching in their factory builds. Other builders do. Is that of any real importance? Are there other build upgrades that I should really look at?

3. Different builders quoted me different balance tolerances. The better the balance, the smoother the engine. What tolerance represents a really good balance, what is overkill and what is not really that adequate?

I certainly got a lot more information at Arlington, but am having obvious difficulty sorting it all out.

Regards,

Michael Wynn
RV 8 Fuselage
San Ramon, CA
 
Me, too. I spent too many hours talking with all the engine people. Went to the engine forums, talked with owners, builders, etc. In the end, I feel all the companies have a good product, each has it's advantage and short comings. All make very good reliable power. AND all priced very close to one another. SO what did I decide?...I don't know. But I got a very good vibe from Bob H of Eagle Engines, He is going to work up a quote for several options(superior, ECI). I will then hope to make a more informed decision. Email them with your mission and what you think you may want and they will be able to help point you in the right direction.

Good luck
 
Re #3:

I have an ECI setup.. and it came with all 4 connecting rods of exact same weight, as well as 4 pistons of exactly same weight.. hard to balance it any better :) So, having that as an option -- why shoot for any less? Crank is also dynamically balanced.. but I forgot to what tolerance..sorry..



Re #2 - if carburated... you'd probably be wasting money on some of those "enhancements"
 
ECI for me!!

Call America's Aircraft Engines (888) 371-1371 (918) 371-3000 and talk with Phil. He was very helpful in my decision process. Also Robbie Attaway of attawayair.com was very helpful in my engine choice/engine builder decision.

Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
 
ECI Here too!

Superior is dealing with too many issues. No way would I would put my money there.

I'd call Robbie... :)
 
ECI/BPA

Robbie Attaway built my engine at my house. Great price, excellent service and many innovations. I like the oil nozzles on the cam. I now have 240 hours and the performance is excellent. I've tried to track the oil burn and to the best of my ability I'm burning less than a quart in 25 hours.

ECI now has the tapered fin cylinders, FI system and cold air sump. I have the older sump and Precision FI. Very happy.

I would also consider having Barrett Precision build an engine for me. Their engines are hand built, reasonably priced and great performers. They do the engines from many of the Red Bull guys and a few other notables.
 
.......I would also consider having Barrett Precision build an engine for me. Their engines are hand built said:
I'll whole heartedly second that! They've been great!
 
Not an engine expert by any measure but I did sleep in a..no, wait, I went through this last year. What I learned was that for the most part, a lyclone is a Lycoming is a... The roller lifters are different as indicated but for the most part the rest is very close except for cylinder surface treatment. All three use a different process with ECI's process being the most corrosion resistant. Some say this or that but I think you will get your best advice from someone like Mahlon at Mattituck or from Penn Yann or Monte Barrett. These guys build all the manufacturers' kits and have some insight that Lycoming, ECI and Superior might not be willing to share. The assemblers want to sell you an engine, any manufacturer will do as long as they get to assemble it, add their trademark touches and make you happy in the process. If they won't give you frank advice, take your cash to one that will.

Mahlon treated my like a long lost brother and was extremely frank. I bought a Lycoming roller kit but substituted ECI jugs.

Jekyll
 
Mattituck charges $450 for using new connecting rods. I thought that was odd.

The ECI FI system requires installation of a return line into the fuel tanks & they say to route it thru the fuel sender access plate. Not a problem if you still have to build your tanks. I'm not sure I want to go thru the process of removing the plate & the proseal & redoing it, especially since at this point my tanks passed the leak test. This return line system was designed to eliminate the hot start problem. Some guys say that if you use the right procedure, hot starts are not a problem. I don't know.
 
My friend, A&P, and engine builder mentor says the ECI engine weighs 4 pounds more than the Lyc and the Superior due to thicker castings, notably around the crankshaft. Thats a GOOD thing.
ECI was experiencing supplier problems (engine case machining) last month so delivery of the engine KIT took a bit longer than hoped for. Not an issue as I'm elbow deep in the canopy.
Superior touts their German owners top quality parts (crank, cam, rods). The parts are not even inspected when received in Texas. All good things but as stated in a previous post Superior has had hardware issues.
Lycs are just too expensive for the same thing.
Both ECI and Sup use 100% PMA parts.

Steve
 
Superior Hardware Problems?

A couple of people have alluded to hardward problems with Superior. What are they? I have heard about a plastic sump issue and some cylinder recalls. Anything else?

Michael Wynn
RV 8 Fuselage
San Ramon, CA
 
Beware - things may not be what you think

I have an ECI IO 360 with an AERO Inc horizontal sump and Bendix FI. Everything fit and works great in my RV8.
I am helping a friend who has the ECI IO 340 with the ECI FI. It looks great and it fit in the mount fine, but since the FI is new, some of the VAN's FWF parts are not working out. (Also, a four pipe exhaust from Vetterman was required.) This set up has a throttle body up front and a mixture module in back on the accessory case, which is part of the fuel pump body. As a result, the mixture cable doesn't fit and new brackets will need to be manufactured for the mixture and for the prop governor, since the one VAN's supplies conflicts. There are other minor things, but that's just part of the process.
I mention the above, not because I think that ECI has an inferior product (Just the opposite is true, I think) but because some folks may not understand that these are not yet plug and play units. You'll have to make things work until someone creates brackets, etc. that fit the new FI system and determine lengths for the control cables using predetermined firewall penetrations. Until then, builders will have to make do, like everyone did pre-FWF kits!
 
Your Bracket Problem is Solved for ECi IOX340 and 360

Steve, Your bracket problem is solved. I manufacture the mixture and the throttle brackets. Call me 602-538-6087.
Robbie
 
yes, please share

what problems does superior have other than the ryton sump :mad: and the cylinder recall. :mad: both of which are history BTW. and IIRC eci had similar issues with some of their cylinders. and was it rods also.
 
Last edited:
Bitter?

You seem somewhat bitter... The sump issue has pissed enough people off. The Cylinder recall floored and cost many aircraft owners in many ways... and I will not talk about the financial repercussions these issues have caused the company. Good luck to Superior and I hope they can come up with better customer service down the road. Many have been shorted. I'm done!
 
FWIW, here's another opinion,

mlwynn said:
1. All the above make Lycoming or Lycoming clones. What is the real (as opposed to salesmen's) differences between the parts? ... The Superior was much better made--smoother, better finish. I wondered if it was really representative of the difference.
Very little that the individual builder/pilot can tell, as far as I can determine. Some say that the rougher case finish helps Lycs dissipate heat better?

mlwynn said:
2. Superior does not offer flow matching in their factory builds. Other builders do. Is that of any real importance? Are there other build upgrades that I should really look at?
I think flow matching and deck height matching make for a smoother engine, and so a more comfortable ride and more enjoyment, as well as longer engine life. So, yes, I think that is important. Upgrades are like car options, you don't need any of them but ... Additional oil spray nozzles are worthwhile, although I think everyone uses them now. I would get an 90* angled oil filter, with spacer for RV-8 (makes oil changing easier). You can read about the benefits of fuel injection and electronic ignition on other threads. High comp pistons are probably only worthwhile if your all out set on best top speed.
mlwynn said:
3. Different builders quoted me different balance tolerances. The better the balance, the smoother the engine. What tolerance represents a really good balance, what is overkill and what is not really that adequate?
Many builders seem to quote static balance to within 2 grams

Hope this helps. I got an O-320 overhauled by Aerosport power and then bought a new O-360 from them.

Pete
 
Not sure if this really figures into the decision, but the folks at Superior told me at the end of my Build School that the if anything should go bad during the warranty period I would have the option of:

a) Having them fix it
b) Having a shop fix it and Superior pay for it
c) Fix it myself and Superior supply the parts and pay me for my labor

This seems like a pretty cool deal.
 
Superior Flow Matching

I think that the Superior Millenium cylinders are so precise made that they are flow matched.

From their website:

The Millennium Cylinder Difference

Through hardened, strength steel- Each barrel offers uniform-hardness all the way through the steel walls, allowing the barrel to withstand extreme cylinder temperatures and pressures and to wear evenly.

Millennium barrels consistently reach TBO, and are designed to last even beyond TBO for several overhaul cycles.

Nitrided-vs-Through-hardened Cylinder Barrels -Nitriding is tough, but for only for the first .025 inch of thickness. It is an uneven coating at best which often quickly and unevenly wears away under extreme temperatures and pressures from piston rings wearing against the cylinder wall.

Nitriding's uneven wear, and the resulting uneven thickness of the barrel wall often prevent the cylinder from making it to TBO.

AMS 6382 Steel Cylinder Barrels - This manufacturing specification goes beyond specifying the chemical content of the 4140 aerospace steel. While 4140 is an excellent material, using the AMS 6382 specification ensures complete control of all critical manufacturing processes from the grain size of the steel to the elimination of microimpurities and defects in the alloy.

Experience has proven that Millennium Barrels perform as expected. They wear more evenly, than nitrided barrels, offer increased cylinder life, less downtime and lower per hour operating costs.

Advanced Cylinder Barrel Choke - Millennium Cylinder Barrels are choked from ten to thirteen thousandths of an inch to allow the rings and pistons to work properly at normal operating temperatures.

Proper barrel choking works best to improve cylinder performance and prevent rings and pistons from prematurely wearing out.

Millennium Cylinders use more advanced alloys that yield 20-per-cent greater strength than aerospace industry standards for air-cooled cylinder heads.

Their advance head casting process reduces safety worries about the thousands of tiny voids found in ordinary sand-cast competitive heads. Voids are microscopic pockets of air that trap heat and promote fatigue cracking. Cracking, in turn, causes premature cylinder failure, which may even reduce your engine's life span.

Millennium Cylinder surfaces are aerodynamically smoother to cut wind resistance and draw away heat from the cylinder core to ensure your engine runs cooler and more efficiently.

Cylinder port wall thicknesses have been increased to greatly reduce premature warpage and cracking.

Every Millennium head casting is identical, unlike ordinary sand-cast heads. That makes exhaust and intake ports, which are responsible for volumetric efficiency in equalizing power pulses from each cylinder, matched for maximum output, better performance and better engine fuel efficiency.

Millennium castings meet more stringent porosity and shrinkage requirements than ordinary cylinder heads. They offer a longer-life cylinder head, less prone to crack than rival competitive heads.

The Millennium's computer generated cylinder head fin configuration offers more consistent fin thickness and spacing for more uniform heat transfer, and fewer "hot spots".

Coupled with a precision balanced rotating assembly, this cylinder leaves behind ordinary standards for performance and extended cylinder life.

For Lycoming Engines

Features Unique to All Models for Lycoming Engines

Improved Casting Integrity

Castings meet stringent porosity and shrinkage requirements.
Promotes a longer-life cylinder head, less prone to cracking.
Computer Generated Cylinder Head Fin Configuration

More consistent fin thickness and spacing.
Means more uniform heat transfer and fewer "hot spots", compared to standard competitors cylinders.
New Materials

Advanced alloys yield 20% greater strength than aerospace industry standards for air-cooled cylinder heads.
Increases cylinder longevity.
Through hardened 4140 Steel Cylinder Barrel

Uniform hardness at any depth with more corrosion resistance.
These barrels may be ground oversize and fitted with oversized pistons.
Choked barrel

Optimal barrel choke allows rings and pistons to work properly at normal operating temperatures.
Improves performance and reduces ring and piston wear.
Features Unique to Lycoming 320/360/540 Parallel Head Engines

Increased Wall Thickness and Enlarged Spark Plug Boss

Exhaust wall thickness has been increased and spark plug boss has been enlarged to reduce premature warping and cracking.

First Production Investment-Cast Aircraft Cylinder for Improved Integrity

The Millennium parallel head 320/360/540 cylinder castings have a smoother finish for better cooling and improved volumetric efficiency in the ports.
Casting Integrity

Smoother surface finish allows better heat transfer.
Dimensional consistency improves durability.
A denser raw material with fewer inherent voids and cavities resists cracking.
Improved Port Design

6% better volumetric efficiency
Smoother port walls reduce drag


Hans

( have yet to start my Superior IO360)
 
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