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Exiting Spins on Heading & Pitch in an RV

precession

Well Known Member
Tried posting this a few weeks ago, and for some reason it came out as a double post, which I tried to edit out. Trying again:

This is a question for you competition aerobatics guys. Exiting spins is one thing, and exiting spins properly in competition is another. In competition, you must (a) exit on the proper heading, and (b) draw a straight vertical down line (before recovering from the dive). The 2017 IAC Sportsman Sequence is calling for a 1 and 1/4 turn spin.

What exact sequence of controls are you using to accomplish both objectives in an RV? In particular, how far in advance of your exit heading are you applying opposite rudder, and when and how are you applying forward stick?

Currently I'm playing a guessing game in my -4 as to how much in advance of the desired exit heading to apply opposite rudder and it's not always working out. Obviously, it takes longer to stop a 2 or 3 rotation spin than a one rotation spin, and I get the impression RVs may not be as quick to respond to anti-spin inputs as pure competition aircraft, possibly due to smaller rudder size. I'm playing with using abrupt forward stick to lessen the rudder guessing game and force the aircraft to stop on the desired exit heading ... ?

Also, my -4 is still rather upright when it stops spinning, so to get a vertical down line I have to push hard into negative G. I spoke to an aerobatic competitor (non-RV guy) who said some competitors let the stick forward somewhat during the spin so they don't have to push so hard when the spin stops to get their vertical down line. Thoughts?
 
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Competition Spins

I enter the spin with full pro-spin rudder and full aft and opposite stick. My -4 takes about 1/2 turn to recover from the barely developed spins used in competition. I recover from a 1 1/4 spin at 3/4 of a turn. I recover with full opposite rudder, neutral lateral and slightly forward stick. Then, once on heading, I use forward stick as necessary to get the pure vertical downline.

It takes some practice, especially on the Y axis recoveries since your sight picture clue for recovery at 3/4 turn will be on the Y axis as well.

Practice makes perfect.
 
Spins

Never spun an RV but in the popular aerobatic airplanes from the Pitts to the Sukhoi and many others: intentionally accelerate the spin almost immediately with forward stick, a bit of power, and a lot of inspin aileron.
Almost on the desired recovery point aggressive opposite rudder and more forward stick. After about 100 of these you should be able to blend the down line smoothly with the recovery.
the pitch attitude on recovery will be much closer to vertical.
Regarding outspin aileron, that is counterproductive and flattens the spin so the transition from recovery to vertical downline is a much greater pitch change. This usually looks really bad to the judges.
For a left rudder upright spin, right stick is outspin aileron, left stick is inspin aileron. Inverted spin stick position is opposite.
Upright spin: inspin aileron will usually pitch the nose down slightly and will always enhance the recovery.
Caution: this requires a LOT of practice. If you are uncertain of what the airplane is doing close the throttle and put the stick in neutral, full rudder opposite the rotation. This takes a lot of practice. The rate of rotation will increase dramatically depending on the amount of forward stick.
I learned this from a student after struggling with competition spin recovery for many years. Student could not land a Pitts but sure did nice competition spins.
 
Jim well described the elevator/aileron technique which can clean up competition spins. The high performance monoplanes especially require this type of technique to get spins to look decent. Also useful in the Pitts, depending on a number of factors. I did not get far enough along with aerobatics as an RV pilot to provide info on how this works in RVs. Something to try as you gain experience.

Regarding the sequence of inputs and timing, I did a bunch of spins in my old RV-3 and an RV-6 w/ 7 fin, and never needed more than 1/4 turn to stop a spin in either direction, up to 3 turns. Those RVs I mentioned recovered a spin pretty much the same as my Pitts and most other aerobatic planes I've flown - full opposite rudder followed a fraction of a second later by a forward stick movement. I've never flown anything remotely aerobatic that required more than 1/4 turn to recover a competition style spin.

You'll need to figure out the amount of forward stick that works best for you, but slightly forward of neutral is pretty standard. Don't overdo the forward stick input. If you really overdo it, you can crossover which can be bad news for pilots who haven't received adequate training. Don't apply rudder and sit there waiting for any perceptible change in rotation rate before moving the stick forward. That will delay recovery. Move the stick very quickly behind the rudder input.

I never tried this in the RV, but most acro planes also recover more quickly and crisply if you apply full power simultaneously with the opposite rudder input. But first learn to stop the spin on heading with a precise vertical pitch/yaw attitude, then worry about power. In any case, be sure to get in the habit of applying full power ASAP as the spin stops to avoid wasting altitude. I know the RV is clean, but this still applies.

Regarding the hard push after a 1-turn spin, you can either blend the push into the recovery, or push vertical immediately after stopping the spin as long as you don't draw a perceptible line before pushing over. Some airplanes require care with the blended recovery to avoid the appearance of the airplane ceasing to autorotate (spin) about all 3-axes, which causes the judges to suspect the pilot is finishing on pure aileron. That will invite deductions. Also be aware that if you overdo the elevator and aileron technique for tightening/accelerating the spin, that the yaw/pitch moments become diminished. Be sure it still looks like a spin and not a spiral. Anyone familiar with the aileron roll rate of RVs will know the difference between an accelerated spin and a spiral, but some judges like to play dumb. They are looking for auto-rotation about all 3-axes. This last point is more related to snap rolls than spins, but worth noting IMO. Ground critiquing/coaching is required.

And remember that the 1-1/4 turn spin produces a natural yaw error that must be corrected simultaneously with the pitch error as the spin stops. You will need to re-apply a little rudder pressure in the direction you originally spun with. Just like the pitch correction, be sure to make the yaw correction before you draw a perceptible line upon stopping the spin or the judges will say you're "dragging a wing" (not perfectly vertical in yaw). Learn where your wingtip sits on the horizon when you're perfectly vertical in yaw, and always look to the side and check your attitude after each spin, as soon as it stops.

Practice is good, but practicing after getting some knowledgeable ground critiquing/coaching is much better. Good luck.
 
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Spins

Lots of good advice from Sandifer. The more you accelerate the spin the less yaw error you will have at the 1/4 and 3/4 marks.
As far as power and speed control in many cases you will want to conserve altitude. Going to full throttle on recovery and keeping the down line short is the most efficient way of managing altitude. The vertical down line only needs to be identifiable, it does not need to be 500 feet long.
As you approach the target speed desired for the next maneuver pull to 4 G or so and you will be all set for the next maneuver. Experiment with what is best for your aircraft for the transition from vertical to level flight.
 
Spin Entry

Excellent advice, all of the above.

While we are on the subject, spin entry is a subject that gets too little attention. Most RV pilots who are just starting aerobatic competition have grave concerns about staying in the aerobatic box. These concerns are valid as the RV can eat up real estate in a big hurry, so a poorly planned or executed sequence can easily exit the box several times during a flight. At the Sportsman level this is not the end of the world as the penalty for exiting the box is only 5 points. With a total possible point count of 1320 for the full sequence, 5 points is hardly a big deal! The rule of thumb is, never screw up a figure in order to avoid going out of the box. You will lose more points for botching the figure than you will lose for exiting the box.

One of the easiest ways to exit the box is to do a level flight spin entry, that is pulling the power to idle and maintaining level flight until the aircraft slows to stall speed. You can eat up a surprising amount of the box with this entry and even if you don't exit the box you will probably enter the spin not knowing where you are in the box as you have no way to see the box markers in level flight. The KNOWN Sportsman sequence will always have the spin entry after some maneuver that slows the aircraft and gains sufficient altitude to put you at or near the top of the box, such as an immelmann or a 45-degree up line. When you practice spins or when you design a FREE program for competition you should also precede your spin entry with a similar maneuver. Try it!
 
Watch out on how abruptly you force the stick forward, for the vertical down line! An abrupt forward stick can easily transition the recovery into an inverted spin! This exact event caused a fatal accident in Pennsylvania 20 years ago. The pilot was practicing getting the vertical after stopping rotation, the plane transitioned into a inverted spin from which he was unable to recover.

An inverted spin from the pilots seat looks nearly the same as the upright spin, that is, unless you are looking right over the spinner instead of straight down at the ground. This pilot had never seen an inverted spin, much less a crossover spin from upright to inverted.

Yes spin training is expensive, but I urge you to go to someone who regularly teaches spins both upright, inverted and crossover, and get training! This is training that will keep you alive!
 
To be clear, it's not so much how abruptly you unload the elevator during spin recovery that can cause a crossover, but in how far forward of neutral you move the elevator while you still have a rudder fully deflected. You can move the stick as fast as you want to a point just forward of neutral, and never come close to crossing over. Or you could move the stick more slowly, too far forward and cross over. You have to move it far enough forward to produce a negative spin. That's nearly fully forward with full rudder in most airplanes. Spins are typically recovered at idle and very low airspeed. It takes a lot of forward stick to produce an inverted spin from this condition. But airplanes vary, and there are lots of ways to screw up and aggravate a spin, so be mindful of the amount of forward stick you're applying.

Anyone doing spins should understand the potential for this to happen, and hopefully obtain advanced spin training as mentioned above. Don't underestimate the confusion and denial that can happen when something unexpected happens that you have not been trained on and never experienced. A Canadian Pitts S-1S pilot died a few years ago while practicing an Intermediate IAC sequence (not a rank newbie) after crossing over inverted after attempting to recover a 1-1/4 upright spin. Spun about 10 turns inverted before hitting the ground. Likely never knew what was happening. For anyone unfamiliar with crossovers, I shot this video a few years ago. You can see how cleanly a crossover to inverted can happen. The crossover from inverted back to upright was not as clean, but it's still quick enough to confuse someone who has not had training experience with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3DJlced8gw
 
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I have little to no interest in aerobatics, but decided to read this thread to gain some knowledge of spin recovery.

What I found here is a little slice of heaven.

The aerobatic community has a reputation for being tight-knit, extremely competitive, and also the kind of people who help each other out, to make each other the best they can be. This discussion thread is absolute confirmation that the acts of support between community members continues on, reinforcing the positive reputation this group has within the larger aviation community.

It sure is nice to see folks helping each other. What a wonderful breath of fresh air!
 
Thanks for posting the video Eric. I've done plenty of upright spins but have never experienced an inverted spin. The one instruction that is burnt into my brain cells is "Stop the ground". In your video it is obvious that the direction the ground is going by the windscreen has changed once you went inverted. Recognition of this should then trigger the requirement for a different action.

Reminds me to be cognizant of the direction of the ground each time I do a spin, especially if it doesn't terminate when I think it should.
 
spin recovery point

Unlike the super pros like Eric, I start 1 to 2 turn spin recoveries about 135 degrees from final heading in my RV-4. It usually ends up on heading or just slightly less. I can put in just a little aileron in the spin direction with the nose down to get it precise. If I over rotate, the judges will see it and down goes the score. Of course Eric and Ron will be looking for that as judges the next contest and ding me for it. Now about those snap rolls :eek:?????????? I starting to think it's damaging my airplane.:mad:
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
 
Not sure about snap rolls in an RV4. I call 'em schnap rolls since they really don't look very snappy. Acquired a Pitts S1S for the more demanding acro and loving every minute of it. I'm taking the pressure off the four so she'll last as long as I.:)
 
I have little to no interest in aerobatics, but decided to read this thread to gain some knowledge of spin recovery.

What I found here is a little slice of heaven.

The aerobatic community has a reputation for being tight-knit, extremely competitive, and also the kind of people who help each other out, to make each other the best they can be. This discussion thread is absolute confirmation that the acts of support between community members continues on, reinforcing the positive reputation this group has within the larger aviation community.

It sure is nice to see folks helping each other. What a wonderful breath of fresh air!

Aw come on.... A little acro never hurt anyone. All the cool kids are doing it, you don't want them to think you are square! It only hurts the first time! It's not addictive.

As for being competitive... Yes! But also willing to share tips with anyone who wants to learn.

You should give competition a try!
 
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Great responses all around, thank you!

I've been trying to hold off replying just because the responses have been so good I didn't want to do anything to put the brakes on the thread.

Having done a lot of reading on this forum and elsewhere, I know the responders include some of the most respected, experienced and knowledgeable aerobatics pilots around, and it's hard to say what a pleasure it is to have a forum like this with guys like you being willing to share your years of expertise, so thank you all very much.

Basically, all I have been doing to date is applying full in-spin rudder and holding the stick full aft, ailerons neutral, until applying opposite rudder, then waiting some time for the rotation to slow somewhat before guessing it was time to apply forward elevator. So now I know that last part, in particular, was wrong, and there's a lot of other fine, and not so fine, tuning to be done as well. All the comments about the timing, pitch control, rudder/elevator sequencing, in- and out-spin controls, the amount of time in which one can expect the rotation to end (with proper technique), and even the pre-spin setup, were all extremely helpful and enlightening -- not to mention the warnings on crossovers and spin training.

There sure is a lot going on in mastering comp spins, isn't there? Not sure I really needed things to get more complicated, :D, but I guess it's better than remaining in the dark on the finer points.

I've had occasions where I did a 4 turn spin, then applied opposite rudder (only, initially) and became concerned when the rotation just seemed to continue for a while. On the other hand, I know Saber25 has a video where he does something like 11 spins in his -4 high in the Rockies. So I can only conclude the delay I experienced was due to poor technique, particularly with elevator application - which makes me feel even better about the ability of RVs to respond to anti-spin controls (while recognizing no two experimentals are the same and it wouldn't be a good idea for anyone without advanced spin training to try either a small or a large number of spins).
 
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Hey Precession, glad to see you onboard the fun train.

The order of books I have covering the subject matter... Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy, Spins in the Pitts Special by Gene Beggs, Aerobatics Today by Bob O'dell and Fly for Fun by Bill Thomas are all excellent sources for what you'll want to know and get you started. Download a copy of the IAC rule book and it'll tell you what the judges are looking for. I discovered slapping a $100 bill on their forehead before the flight doesn't make a difference on the score awarded.

Cheers Hans
 
Just to add one more book to the group already mentioned - "Stall/Spin Awareness" by Rich Stowell is a very exhaustive study on the subject.
 
Spins

I sure would like to see someone thoroughly test all the aerobatic RV models for both the Mueller/Beggs hands off recovery and the Finnegan controls centered recovery method.
Unless or until that happens consider the following on a spin recovery gone bad:
make sure you have the rudder all the way to the stop
Center the ailerons
Make sure the power is at idle
If the rotation does not slow almost immediately use full opposite rudder.
If you unintentionally accelerate a spin you can slow the rotation again by pulling the stick all the way back(upright spin)

The above is counter to some of my previous posts which were meant for those who are flying competition and are reasonably comfortable with spins.

Many of the top aerobatic pilots from the 70's and earlier didn't really know much about spins. There were Sammy Mason, Art Scholl, Rod Jocelyn and a few others who were spin experts, but they were few and far between. The others survived mostly by NEVER letting the airplane spin unintentionally. My way of doing this was to quickly check both wingtips, neutral rudder and gently push or pull to the nearest horizon. The only exception to this was when I was trying to master outside snaps on a 45 degree climbing line. Tumbles become a way of life in that situation. In 20 plus years of aerobatics I never did an inadvertent spin when I was sole manipulator of the controls. Lots of inadvertent spins with students. Also I have never had a spin recovery problem. One very early flat inverted went a turn or two past what I wanted but that was from a basic control error.
 
Meuller/Beggs

For those who are not familiar with this:
throttle closed
let go of stick
looking straight ahead over the nose, full rudder opposite yaw.

Finnegan recovery method:
all controls to neutral
 
I sure would like to see someone thoroughly test all the aerobatic RV models for both the Mueller/Beggs hands off recovery and the Finnegan controls centered recovery method.

Great idea, sounds like a job, ideally, for someone with a video recorder on helmet/headset cam, documenting the altitude loss in the RV for each the three recovery methods -- PARE, Mueller/Beggs and Finegan -- as done by world record holder Spencer Suderman here in his Pitts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-6SzkPNyL8

(Hmm, I wonder if Saber25 has one of those video cam contraptions. :D)

Thanks, jrs14855, for the additional valuable comment.

And Saber25, thanks, I've been on the aerobatics fun train on my own for a while, doesn't mean I'd be any threat in competition -- which makes your advice that the judges in IAC don't respond to the $100 on the forehead method bad news.
 
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Keep in mind that the small differences in recovery efficiency between PARE, Beggs, and "Finagin" are more academic than important from a practical standpoint. PARE is not an emergency recovery technique, so whether you choose to keep Beggs or "Finagin" in your back pocket in the event of a disorienting spin is a matter of pilot/aircraft preference. I prefer to advocate the "Finagin" neutral control technique, since it completely removes the requirement for any decision making whatsoever regarding the direction of the spin. The same technique works for any spin mode.

Regarding the findings of Spencer's video, I don't consider them an accurate comparison between the different recovery techniques. Some of the numbers just don't make sense. I think there are some pilot variables going on here, and more scientific testing would be needed. But again, it's academic unless you're flying an airplane that does not respond adequately to any particular technique. There are certain spin modes in certain airplanes that don't recover with the hands off 'Beggs-Muller' technique. An accidental spin is not the time to become a test pilot. Don't allow yourself to get into a position where 100' or so of altitude difference between different techniques will decide life or death.

I cannot imagine the 'Finagin' method would fail to recover a properly loaded RV from any spin mode, but I've never seen any RV spin test info that covers different techniques across all spin modes. I've never heard of anyone attempting a full power flat spin upright or inverted in an RV. (EDIT - I see 'ALMARTON' posted a video today of a true power on upright flat spin in an RV-7. Looks completely normal, like any other aerobatic airplane. First time I've seen that, thanks for posting. For those running metal props with hollow cranks and/or light crank flanges, be aware that full power flat spins impose high gyroscopic loads.)
 
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Keep in mind that the small differences in recovery efficiency between PARE, Beggs, and "Finagin" are more academic than important from a practical standpoint.

Point taken. As I understand it, and as I think you are pointing out, jrs14855's original point wasn't really about comparing altitude loss amongst the various techniques, but rather to simply obtain proof in the first place as to whether or not the Beggs/Mueller and Finagin methods actually work in RVs -- since you only know for sure once a plane has been tested. It would be interesting to see the testing recorded on video though, alongside of PARE recovery. I'm guessing that when Vans performed initial spin testing they would have used PARE technique.
 
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Keep in mind that the small differences in recovery efficiency between PARE, Beggs, and "Finagin" are more academic than important from a practical standpoint. PARE is not an emergency recovery technique, so whether you choose to keep Beggs or "Finagin" in your back pocket in the event of a disorienting spin is a matter of pilot/aircraft preference. I prefer to advocate the "Finagin" neutral control technique, since it completely removes the requirement for any decision making whatsoever regarding the direction of the spin. The same technique works for any spin mode.

Regarding the findings of Spencer's video, I don't consider them an accurate comparison between the different recovery techniques. Some of the numbers just don't make sense. I think there are some pilot variables going on here, and more scientific testing would be needed.

I did a test after Suderman's first spin video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG-mlDhRt_A&t=16s

What I found was that Begg's recovered faster. My theory is that it just has fewer steps.

PARE
1. Power
2. Ailerons
3. Rudder
4. Elevator

Finigan
1. Power off
2. Neutral controls
3. 100MPH
4. 4G pull out.

Beggs
1. Power off
2. Let go
3. Stomp opposite

I found Beggs allowed 1&2 to be done simultaneously.

I advocate Finagin since putting all controls neutral might actually prevent a spin.

If I have time, I might try the same thing with the 6....
 
As I understand it, and as I think you are pointing out, jrs14855's original point wasn't really about comparing altitude loss amongst the various techniques, but rather to simply obtain proof in the first place as to whether or not the Beggs/Mueller and Finagin methods actually work in RVs -- since you only know for sure once a plane has been tested. It would be interesting to see the testing recorded on video though, alongside of PARE recovery. I'm guessing that when Vans performed initial spin testing they would have used PARE technique.

Absolutely right. I sorta side tracked by bringing up the other point, since on occasion folks have a tendency to obsess about using the most efficient technique. I don't think that was happening here. It's more important to pick the technique that simply works period (for your airplane) and is most likely to be employed successfully by the pilot if needed.
 
I did a test after Suderman's first spin video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG-mlDhRt_A&t=16s

If I have time, I might try the same thing with the 6....

Very nice video. My -4 is down for exhaust system repairs, otherwise I would already have tested the Beggs-Mueller and Finagin recovery methods and reported (albeit without video, which I don't have).

In your video, you let the aircraft spin for 1,000 ft altitude loss before starting recovery inputs, which seems like a reasonable way to try to set the same parameters for each test. I guess another option would be to pick a set number of rotations. I think I counted about 6 rotations during your first 1,000' altitude loss. I'm assuming you held full in-spin rudder, but do you happen to remember what other control applications were you holding during the first 1,000', in terms of: power, aileron, elevator? I'm guessing you left in some power. I think when I test Beggs and Finagin (sp?) I'll just start out with a 2 turn spin while holding full in-spin rudder, partial power, full aft elevator and neutral aileron. The thing with the -4 is, if you leave any power in it seems you have to keep the nose up at a ridiculous angle to get it to stall - just wants to keep flying (great airplane).
 
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Very nice video. My -4 is down for exhaust system repairs, otherwise I would already have tested the Beggs-Mueller and Finagin recovery methods and reported (albeit without video, which I don't have).

In your video, you let the aircraft spin for 1,000 ft altitude loss before starting recovery inputs, which seems like a reasonable way to try to set the same parameters for each test. I guess another option would be to pick a set number of rotations. I think I counted about 6 rotations during your first 1,000' altitude loss. I'm assuming you held full in-spin rudder, but do you happen to remember what other control applications were you holding during the first 1,000', in terms of: power, aileron, elevator? I'm guessing you left in some power. I think when I test Beggs and Finagin (sp?) I'll just start out with a 2 turn spin while holding full in-spin rudder, partial power, full aft elevator and neutral aileron. The thing with the -4 is, if you leave any power in it seems you have to keep the nose up at a ridiculous angle to get it to stall - just wants to keep flying (great airplane).

Set up for all the spins was the same. Power to idle, add elevator till it breaks, full rudder and then full elevator, neutral ailerons.

You could do number of spins, but then you have to count them. I found watching the altimeter was easier and since altitude was what I was recording, I tried to keep it easy. If I was recording number of turns to stop, I would have counted turns.

Don't know if that makes good sense, but it made sense to me.
 
Spin Test Results

Hey guys, as a follow up to the above, just wanted to report that I got my -4 back in action and had a chance this afternoon to see how it responds to the Finagin and Beggs/Muller spin recovery methods. (B/t/w, in case others out there have already tried them, I'm not trying to claim I'm the first.)

So the bottom line is simply that I found that both of these methods do work to recover from spins in the RV-4. The -4 responded very quickly and immediately to each method, IMO, and it worked for spins to both the left and right.

My initial spin inputs were (a) power off, (b) full in-spin rudder, (c) full aft elevator, and I held those inputs for 2 full revolutions before initiating recovery. I actually started off using the P.A.R.E. method, then moved to Finagin, then Beggs/Muller. I did each one two times right and two times left (then had to stop, it was getting dark).

With both P.A.R.E. and Finagin, I was back to level flight after an altitude loss of @1,000' (that includes the 2-turn spin before the recovery inputs were applied). With Beggs/Muller, I was back to level flight in @1,300-1,400' (again, that includes the 2-turn spin before recovery initiated).

I wouldn't put a great deal of stock in the altitude loss figures because my technique probably could have been better, and it was actually the first time I've done Finagin and Beggs. Nevertheless, I think the Beggs method took a little more altitude just because I made sure to follow the procedure, which is to wait for rotation to stop before pulling out of the dive, and it seemed like the plane had to come out of a little steeper of a dive with that method.

I'll probably try some other variations of these tests in the future.
 
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