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Mental Exercise: VFR Cockpit Planning

N804RV

N804RV

Well Known Member
No more excuses! All the things I "just have to do" before I get serious with this airplane are done. Now, the fun begins.

My goal for this build is a Day/Night VFR bird that will mostly be fun-fly with sportsman-class aerobatics and occasional VMC cross country. I won't be flying extensive cross country. But, when I do, I'll be taking my time and enjoying the scenery.

I want to see If I can build this bird for less than $60,000 and 1,050 lbs(have to make it challenging, right?...). So, I want to start now in planning for cockpit layout. I figure, if I know what I'm looking for ahead of time, I'll have a longer scrounge-window than if I wait till I need the stuff.

So, with that in mind, this is what I've identified as must-have instrument/avionics functions:

Engine Instruments
Tachometer
Oil Pressure
Oil Temperature
CHT (all cylinders)
EGT (all cylinders)
Fuel Qty
Fuel Press
Voltmeter
Ammeter

Caution/Advisory
Oil Pressure Low
Boost Pump On
Over Voltage
AOA (or stall warner?)

Flight Instruments
Airspeed
Baro Alt
VSI
Turn Coordinator (Solid State)
OAT
Chronometer

Comm/Nav
NavComm TXCVR
Audio/ICS
Txpdr
GPS/Moving Map
VOR/LOC Ind
ELT

These are functions only, not specific equipment. This list will be used to do a specific cost analysis for different equipment comparisons.

What have I forgotton?
 
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Ken - you can achieve all of your goals with a little bit of diligence. At this stage, just pick the air-frame and don't worry about firewall forward and don't worry at all about the panel.

Decide the firewall forward once you get to that stage and you decide your available budget or what falls into your lap.

Decide the panel at the last possible moment. You can actually finish 99% of the project and do the panel in the last 3 months.
 
If you're strictly day night VFR, why include the VOR/LOC? If you're serious about keeping it under 60k, you'll need to question every expense, and this one seems superfluous for mostly local flights with occasional VMC XC.

Its your money and your choice, but a portable GPS to back up whats in the panel would look like a more cost effective way to go. Now if you're looking at IFR flight, it makes sense.

And Glen makes a great point. Focus on the airframe now and see what's available (new and used) when the time comes.
 
I would add fuel flo measurement. Until you get your tanks completely calibrated, having flo totalizer info available is invaluable. Also, because the tank gauges don't read accurately until less than 12 to 14 gal (on either side); the flo totalizer let's you know how much is really there when the float senders are still reading full.
 
Don said:
If you're strictly day night VFR, why include the VOR/LOC? If you're serious about keeping it under 60k, you'll need to question every expense, and this one seems superfluous for mostly local flights with occasional VMC XC.

Its your money and your choice, but a portable GPS to back up whats in the panel would look like a more cost effective way to go. Now if you're looking at IFR flight, it makes sense.

And Glen makes a great point. Focus on the airframe now and see what's available (new and used) when the time comes.
Click to expand...

That's a valid point about VOR. I guess I'm so used to having VOR, I just thought it was the logical choice for back-up nav. I'll have to think about that.
 
Instead of a chronometer in the panel, put a cheap wristwatch (clock bracelet, according to the Wendy's commercial:D) on your arm. One of my flying buddies is an instructor at the Air Force Test Pilot School, and he makes the same recommendation to his students.
 
Suggestions for cheap and lightweight...

Engine and Flight Instruments: One Dynon D-180

GPS: A Garmin portable (495/496 or 696 or 796) in an Air-Gizmo dock.

Radio: New Garmin GTR-200 with integrated stereo intercom

Transponder: Find a good used Garmin GTX-320A

ELT: Whatever is the cheapest ELT du jour.

Probably want to add on the Dynon autopilot servos and the AP74 control module, would be very nice to have on cross country flights. The Garmin portable GPS will drive the autopilot just fine.

If it were me, I'd also add on at least one steam gauge as a backup... an airspeed indicator in case the D-180 fails.

That would be enough to get you anywhere in the country VFR flying, and not break the bank either, and be lightweight and make for a very clean and simple, yet feature-filled panel in an RV-8
 
Neal@F14 said:
...If it were me, I'd also add on at least one steam gauge as a backup... an airspeed indicator in case the D-180 fails...
Click to expand...

I think your list is spot on with this one exception. I've felt for a long time that RV's can be flown "eyes out" safely. Given the minimal chance that the glass display will fail, coupled with the very high likelyhood that you will be able to fly completely "eyes out" if it does, means that the steam "backup" would only really be useful in extreme cases. Everyone has their own comfort threshold, but I can tell you that I would have no problem with only one source of altitude/airspeed info in a VFR only RV.
 
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Silly question.
Is the Dynon D-180 stable enough for Sportsman Aerobatics?
If so then loose the back-ups in a VFR plane.
The portable GPS will provide the back-ups for both alt. and speed.
 
g3x

A one screen G3X will do everything on your list and more except ELT, transponder, audio panel, and radio while weighing less, be simpler to install, and make the end product far more valuable than the difference in cost.
 
Last time I checked, the GX3 single screen with engine monitoring and two-axis AP was still a couple grand higher than the D-180 w/AP by the time you've bought all the various pieces-parts to make complete systems of either. Now granted, the GX3 sure would result in a much nicer panel, but the OP is trying to stay under $60K for the entire plane, which is going to be challenging. Used D-180s are starting to show up occasionally from folks who are upgrading so there may be some cost savings to be found there too, in fact there's one in the VAF classifieds right now.
 
MarkW said:
Silly question.
Is the Dynon D-180 stable enough for Sportsman Aerobatics?.....
Click to expand...

I'd like to know this as well, is someone willing to tell us about their "real-world" experience with this?

Neal@F14 said:
... Now granted, the GX3 sure would result in a much nicer panel, but the OP is trying to stay under $60K for the entire plane, which is going to be challenging.
Click to expand...

Yep, this is what I'm thinking also!

Neal@F14 said:
...Used D-180s are starting to show up occasionally from folks who are upgrading so there may be some cost savings to be found there too, in fact there's one in the VAF classifieds right now.
Click to expand...

This is probably the route I'll be going. I just don't want to commit any money to it until I'm a little closer to having to.

Thanks for all the replies. Keep 'em coming!:D

There are a couple of days a week that I can't get out to the garage. But, I'm not actively doing any wage-earning activities either. I could be reading a book, or planning/researching the build. I just finished "Wager with the Wind" (again!) and "Travels with Puff" so I'm tired of reading anything that doesn't contribute to getting my RV-8 built!
 
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If the D-180 is anything like the D-100 (and it should be) then it ought to handle "sportsman's acro" just fine.

I installed a D-100/D-120 pair in my friend's RV-8 when we built it, and he has rolled and looped the plane quite a bit, and everything is still working great over 300 hours later. I've rolled the plane myself many times, but never looped it myself.... don't want to clean puke out of my buddy's plane since loops tend to make me quite airsick :eek:
 
Do you feel a VSI is a "must have" for VFR flying? I've never had one and don't know why I'd ever look at one if I did.
 
Hi Ken,
I fly sportsman (may be moving up to intermediate soon) in a Super Decathlon up here in the Northwest. Panel is standard American Champion steam gages with no AH. For acro the most important gages are airspeed, altimeter, and g-meter. I also fly quite a lot of x-country and the Garmin 496 in the panel with XM WX works out great. You will most likely want to travel a bit to contests so making x-country easy is a nice comfort. For reference about EFIS units putting up with acro; there is a large difference between gentleman acro and competitive acro - the competition-style figures are tougher on gyros (spinning or solid-state). Check out the local IAC group and come out to Ephrata on a practice day or competition. Great bunch of folks.
Larry
Bellevue, WA
Super Decathlon
Rocket under construction (for way too long)
 
The plane Neal describes is more or less my plane! Sub-1050# and sub-$60K was very doable, even with a new Aerosport engine when I finished 2 years ago. Might have to scrounge a bit more than I did given the inflation since. For day/night VFR I'm not sure why I would need anything else. Good luck.

Neal@F14 said:
Engine and Flight Instruments: One Dynon D-180

GPS: A Garmin portable (495/496 or 696 or 796) in an Air-Gizmo dock.

Radio: New Garmin GTR-200 with integrated stereo intercom

Transponder: Find a good used Garmin GTX-320A

ELT: Whatever is the cheapest ELT du jour.

Probably want to add on the Dynon autopilot servos and the AP74 control module, would be very nice to have on cross country flights. The Garmin portable GPS will drive the autopilot just fine.

If it were me, I'd also add on at least one steam gauge as a backup... an airspeed indicator in case the D-180 fails.

That would be enough to get you anywhere in the country VFR flying, and not break the bank either, and be lightweight and make for a very clean and simple, yet feature-filled panel in an RV-8
Click to expand...
 
Right, but the OP wanted a moving map and VOR indicator as well so you would need to add that cost to the D-180. Granted you can pick up all these things used and a few good deals could make a big difference in cost.

Neal@F14 said:
Last time I checked, the GX3 single screen with engine monitoring and two-axis AP was still a couple grand higher than the D-180 w/AP by the time you've bought all the various pieces-parts to make complete systems of either. Now granted, the GX3 sure would result in a much nicer panel, but the OP is trying to stay under $60K for the entire plane, which is going to be challenging. Used D-180s are starting to show up occasionally from folks who are upgrading so there may be some cost savings to be found there too, in fact there's one in the VAF classifieds right now.
Click to expand...
 
Neal@F14 said:
Engine and Flight Instruments: One Dynon D-180

GPS: A Garmin portable (495/496 or 696 or 796) in an Air-Gizmo dock.

Radio: New Garmin GTR-200 with integrated stereo intercom

Transponder: Find a good used Garmin GTX-320A

ELT: Whatever is the cheapest ELT du jour.

Probably want to add on the Dynon autopilot servos and the AP74 control module, would be very nice to have on cross country flights. The Garmin portable GPS will drive the autopilot just fine.

If it were me, I'd also add on at least one steam gauge as a backup... an airspeed indicator in case the D-180 fails.

That would be enough to get you anywhere in the country VFR flying, and not break the bank either, and be lightweight and make for a very clean and simple, yet feature-filled panel in an RV-8
Click to expand...

That is essentially what I started with, including a backup airspeed, altimeter, and slip ball.

After a few hundred hours in this configuration I remade my panel and installed a SkyView. When I did that all the steam gauges came out.

Before replacing the panel I tracked down a leaking pitot line and did a few test flights w/o any airspeed. There is no problem flying the plane w/o that extra instrument.

(Later on I did add a Dynon D1, which is a great compromise and backup instrument!)

luddite42 said:
Do you feel a VSI is a "must have" for VFR flying? I've never had one and don't know why I'd ever look at one if I did.
Click to expand...
I never understood why VFR types (of which, I am one) always thinking they need a VSI. You are VFR, if you can't tell you are going up or down by looking outside when close to the ground or the altimeter when at altitude, you shouldn't call yourself a pilot.

I have flown a number of planes (Cubs, Champs, T-Craft, Luscumb, etc.) that didn't have a VSI and never missed it.
 
A single-seat airplane doesn't "need" an ELT.

Just sayin'....

Dave
RV-3B, still building wings

P.S. - But if you do install one, get a 406 version; there's a chance that if you need it, someone can find it.
 
Neal@F14 said:
Engine and Flight Instruments: One Dynon D-180

GPS: A Garmin portable (495/496 or 696 or 796) in an Air-Gizmo dock.

Radio: New Garmin GTR-200 with integrated stereo intercom

Transponder: Find a good used Garmin GTX-320A

ELT: Whatever is the cheapest ELT du jour.

Probably want to add on the Dynon autopilot servos and the AP74 control module, would be very nice to have on cross country flights. The Garmin portable GPS will drive the autopilot just fine.

If it were me, I'd also add on at least one steam gauge as a backup... an airspeed indicator in case the D-180 fails.

That would be enough to get you anywhere in the country VFR flying, and not break the bank either, and be lightweight and make for a very clean and simple, yet feature-filled panel in an RV-8
Click to expand...

The Dynon economics need to be calculated.

If you go for a bigger GPS screen, the price difference between a Dynon D-180 + Garmin 696 system and a Dynon Skyview 10 inch screen system is only a few hundred $$$.

No AP74 would be required and more upgrades would be possible in the future.
 
I haven't priced it but i'm sure some of you have...

If you went to the next level and did a 7" Skyview rather than the D-180, you could use a remote mounted radio and Dynon GPS antenna, and bring the GPS and COM controls into the Skyview. It's more "all the eggs in one basket"-ish, but would simplify further the final system. Heck, add the VPS system and bring the circuit breakers in as well. If you compared total cost of doing this vs doing it the "old fashioned" way, you may find it's not as different as you'd think.

I seem to recall from looking a few years ago that the cost difference between *new* steam gauges and new Dynon (non-skyview) was almost zero, so the only cost savings would be in scrounging used instruments. Used Dynon hardware is still pricey, but does come up from time to time... There were D180's on here just recently.
 
Snowflake said:
I haven't priced it but i'm sure some of you have...

If you went to the next level and did a 7" Skyview rather than the D-180, you could use a remote mounted radio and Dynon GPS antenna, and bring the GPS and COM controls into the Skyview. It's more "all the eggs in one basket"-ish, but would simplify further the final system. Heck, add the VPS system and bring the circuit breakers in as well. If you compared total cost of doing this vs doing it the "old fashioned" way, you may find it's not as different as you'd think.

I seem to recall from looking a few years ago that the cost difference between *new* steam gauges and new Dynon (non-skyview) was almost zero, so the only cost savings would be in scrounging used instruments. Used Dynon hardware is still pricey, but does come up from time to time... There were D180's on here just recently.
Click to expand...


The trouble as I see it for a single 7" Skyview is that it won't easily display the three things you need on a single screen -

EFIS
Engine monitoring
GPS map

If you don't have all three, then you still need an extra box/screen, which makes the extra $900 for the 10" screen worth while.

Ignore above if you go to dual screens...:)
 
I normally fly with the 7" Skyview screen in front of my displaying all three, EFIS, EMS and map. If doing again, I would go 10" but don't want to rework at this time. Dynon can do everything on your list except ELT and VOR/LOC/GS. It would be simple to add autopilot, ADSB and a second screen. I am certain GRT, Garmin and others offer similar capabilities.
 
N941WR said:
...I never understood why VFR types (of which, I am one) always thinking they need a VSI. You are VFR, if you can't tell you are going up or down by looking outside when close to the ground or the altimeter when at altitude, you shouldn't call yourself a pilot.

I have flown a number of planes (Cubs, Champs, T-Craft, Luscumb, etc.) that didn't have a VSI and never missed it.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way about attitude and heading indicators. Look out the window for attitude, and a good compass for heading. If you're worried about occasionally losing the horizon, throw in an electric turn coordinator. Of course, in that situation, a good VSI is going to show a pitch excursion a bit sooner than the altimeter.;)
 
I used to fly a Citabria that had AS, Baro-Alt, a whiskey compass, as the sum total of its flight instruments.

I managed the Saturday morning $100 hamburger runs just fine. Even flew a couple of overnight trips with my handheld Apollo GPS and a paper chart, no problem.

But, I'm thinking a VSI and turn coordinator are nice to have instruments for those times that I do want a little more precision.

As it stands, I'm seriously leaning towards used round flt instruments (AS, Alt, VSI turn coordinator and whiskey compass), a D-10 EMS and something like a GPSMap 796 for moving map. Com, ICS/audio and ELT will be whatever I can scrounge.

A couple of must-have I've decided on are electric stick-trim (who has a "coolie-hat" on their grip?), and an AOA indicator.
 
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Ken,
A panel full of steam guages is heavier than a digital EFIS
An RV is a great X/C machine and although you can hand fly it anywhere it is really nice to push a couple of buttons with an AP sit back and enjoy the scenery.

One of the nice features with most of the newer EFIS displays is the ability to have synthetic vision... Nice to see those 2500 foot towers when your flying at 1000 AGL.. And should you get caught being able to have a map plot in front of you.
Jack
 
Have a look at the panel that Kirby Chambliss uses in his Edge 540.

MGL mini extreme EFIS plus a steam air speed and altimeter for acro.

About as simple and low cost as you will find, with a built in GPS in the Extreme, plus engine monitor that you can configure to several brands and types of probes. To date it is the only EFIS that has not failed me. 4 others have taken their turn on flights as black panel space.

I also look forward to the the GRT mini series as GRT products also have a history of solid performance.
 
a grt mini series....$1200
a grt eis................$1200
a used gps.............$600
a nexus tablet........$250 moving map, a lot of backup
--------
$3250

the mini series also has an artificial horizon. would only take a few seconds of low visibility on a dark night to make you appreciate that.
 
Avionics last

Choose your airframe (lots of VAF browsing for sure) and pay attention to the classifieds and other websites that people frequent. You'd be surprised how many tail kits you can pick up for half price or half completed projects for cheeeeep. Last but not least, mid time engines are frequent on salvage websites (look for hail damage aircraft) and buy your avionics last. They change so fast, leave the panel blank until everything else is reasonably close to finished. Keep in mind you may want to mount autopilot servos if you get a good deal.
Best,
Brian
 
longranger said:
I feel the same way about attitude and heading indicators. Look out the window for attitude, and a good compass for heading. If you're worried about occasionally losing the horizon, throw in an electric turn coordinator. Of course, in that situation, a good VSI is going to show a pitch excursion a bit sooner than the altimeter.;)
Click to expand...

Is it just me, or did it take 26 replies before someone mentioned the only missing required equipment from the list (a Compass)? I was taught that required equipment was A GOOSE CAT

A Airspeed
G Gas Gauge
O Oil Temp
O Oil Pressure
S Seat Belt (not on list, but obvious)
E ELT
C COMPASS
A Altimeter
T Tachometer
 
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Jesse said:
Is it just me, or did it take 26 replies before someone mentioned the only missing required equipment from the list (a Compass)? I was taught that required equipment was A GOOSE CAT

A Airspeed
G Gas Gauge
O Oil Temp
O Oil Pressure
S Seat Belt (not on list, but obvious)
E ELT
C COMPASS
A Altimeter
T Tachometer
Click to expand...

A compass is not required; however, a magnetic direction indicator is required. Thus an EFIS covers that requirement.

Back when I was designing my panel I wanted day and night VFR and for ME that meant an artificial horizon. When I priced everything out, it was cheaper, easier, and lighter to go with a Dynon D100 EFIS and a D10 EMS coupled with a Garmin 496. Everything had battery backups except the EMS and I figured that if it went dark and the thing up front kept making noise, I could still get home.
 
N941WR said:
A compass is not required; however, a magnetic direction indicator is required. Thus an EFIS covers that requirement.
Click to expand...

Somewhat semantics, I guess. Yes, an EFIS could cover that requirement. I'm just surprised that nobody mentioned that requirement sooner.
 
Jesse said:
Is it just me, or did it take 26 replies before someone mentioned the only missing required equipment from the list (a Compass)? I was taught that required equipment was A GOOSE CAT

A Airspeed
G Gas Gauge
O Oil Temp
O Oil Pressure
S Seat Belt (not on list, but obvious)
E ELT
C COMPASS
A Altimeter
T Tachometer
Click to expand...

None of which is actually REQUIRED for an experimental by the way. I won't go in to what you might DESIRE or WANT of course, but the regulations do not protect us from ourselves in this case.

(I should point out, actually, that Mel always says that there is one thing required, but I can never remember what that is....)
 
Jesse said:
Is it just me, or did it take 26 replies before someone mentioned the only missing required equipment from the list (a Compass)? I was taught that required equipment was A GOOSE CAT

A Airspeed
G Gas Gauge
O Oil Temp
O Oil Pressure
S Seat Belt (not on list, but obvious)
E ELT
C COMPASS
A Altimeter
T Tachometer
Click to expand...

It's just you:p... Look up ATOMATOFLAMES.....

Actually I do intend to have a whiskey compass on the panel, regardless of whether I get EFIS or not. So, good catch!
 
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Ironflight said:
None of which is actually REQUIRED for an experimental by the way. ...the regulations do not protect us from ourselves in this case. ...
Click to expand...

I had always thought Day VFR requirements for the aircraft were the same regardless of what you were flying... My Dad always advised me to learn something every day. That's mine for today. Thanks Paul!
 
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